Luck has a ton to do with it. For the record, if both of those teams win, I think the '18 team loses to Nova in the Final Four and the '19 team wins it all. Last year's team had a shot a Final Four and a title possibly. Though it was considerably less than the '18 and '19 teams, in my opinion. I still think last season was the Zags year. Few may have a better team this season than the one he had in '20.
4 and 5 year players...
- Thread starter jamsession3
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In a normal year I would think the pieces are here for a team that could potentially be really good by year's end. But this isn't a normal year and I worry about the chemistry of this group. We may take some rough licks during conference play. Most importantly though, I just want to see everyone stay healthy and be safe throughout the college basketball landscape, even ole' Roy.
I could've seen them bowing out in the first weekend or going to the Final Four. I honestly think Tre wills them to at the very least an ACC championship and the elite eight last season. Had they made it to the Final Four that's where it probably would've ended though.
The 18 team had no chemistry. Tons of talent, probably the most in the country. But talent with chemistry is the ticket. Villanova proved that.
The 19 team only had 2 good players, even though we had the best player in the country, but neither he nor Barrett were good 3 point shooters. We had no consistency from a 3rd option. Tre helped us get by VT, hitting several 3’s. That was ONLY his second game hitting multiple 3’s.
When you can’t stretch the defense, points become hard to get.
The 19 team only had 2 good players, even though we had the best player in the country, but neither he nor Barrett were good 3 point shooters. We had no consistency from a 3rd option. Tre helped us get by VT, hitting several 3’s. That was ONLY his second game hitting multiple 3’s.
When you can’t stretch the defense, points become hard to get.
We're all just either glass half full or empty, there's no right or wrong. We did seem to be glass half full on this year's team. It is early and things may change.
Yeah, at the end of the day these are kids. I can't imagine the pressure that comes with playing for the greatest program in the sport. Add a pandemic on top of what would normally be a great amount of pressure and have kids dealing with more game pressure than ever before. History is a powerful thing. The past can put pressure on you. Think about looking up into those rafters, seeing all the banners and jerseys of great players who accomplished amazing things during their time spent at Duke. Now imagine your following that during the most unpredictable time in sports history. I wouldn't want that pressure on me. I just hope they stay safe and healthy.
I'd like to take this moment to point out an egregious error in the rafters....why is Kyle not up there? I know we've talked about it here before. But, can someone explain to me how Singler isn't up in those rafters?
I'd like to take this moment to point out an egregious error in the rafters....why is Kyle not up there? I know we've talked about it here before. But, can someone explain to me how Singler isn't up in those rafters?
Singler was not POY which might be the criteria. I would certainly vote him in, as he's my favorite player of the last 15 years. And he won a title and got his degree and was All American. A first team All American in high school who stayed 4 years. We will never see that again.
I agree in the sense that we weren't nearly as talented as the 18 or 19 teams, however the field last year seemed like the weakest field maybe ever?? We were staring at a 2 or 3 seed with Dayton the 1 and Creighton the 2 or 3 with us. That's a nice draw. Who knows what would have happened, but 1 or 2 breaks and I think we make the Final 4, plus with Tre, we weren't gonna beat ourselves.
We also had the best player in the country in Justin Robinson so there's that too.
Look, there are more good teams each year, more good coaches, and players don't want to sit and wait their turn. Given these facts, Duke is still always in the conversation, year in and year out. Nobody else can say that.
That's why I love being a Duke fan--my team is NEVER irrelevant.
That's why I love being a Duke fan--my team is NEVER irrelevant.
Spot on. I'll take Duke over any program in the country. I'll take our coaches and our guys over any other as well.
Singler never made AP All-America. He never made first team All-America for anybody. He never came close to being named ACC POY and arguably was never even the best player on his team. He played an enormous number of games at Duke and ranks high on cumulative career stats at Duke but not especially high on any per-games-stats.
In almost any other college-basketball program Kyle Singler would be on Mount Rushmore. But Duke isn't any other college-basketball program. It's hard, IMO, to make a case for retiring Singler's jersey over Verga and Spanarkel at the very least. And guys like Marin, Lewis, Denton, Banks, Alarie, Langdon are at a comparable level. Even among his teammates, Gerald Henderson, Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and arguably Mason Plumlee all had one season better than Singler's best season.
Singler was a warrior and a remarkably consistent one at that. I loved watching him play, I loved interviewing him. But in a universe where ACC POYs like Vacendak and Carrawell don't even get a second glance, I suspect Duke will have to find others ways to honor him.
My two cents.
That's a good two cents. Loved Kyle also and enjoyed the way he played but if his number is retired all the ones you mentioned are deserving . You just can't retire every Duke number. OFC
AOC was a bust, no matter how bad some fans wanted him to be GREAT! Every opportunity he got, he **** the bed. When Duke had no great outside shooters and he was one of few, he just didn’t come through. Cant blame that on chemistry and his defense sucked, so he was a liability on both ends. I liked AOC has a person, but as a player, when given an opportunity to prove he deserved more PT, he **** the bed. How is he doing at Creighton?
We lost in OT as a 2-seed to a 1-seed in a virtual road game in 2018 and on a late 3 in 2019. No shame in losing to Kansas and Michigan State (Self and Izzo). Now, 2019, yes, I agree stung more because we were about a minute away from winning and when CBS showed that graphic that K would pass Wooden in all-time Final Fours, his ghost said “nope.”
I will say, there used to be a time when Duke had trouble getting past the Sweet 16 WITH experienced players. Between 2005 and 2012, we went to exactly 1 Elite 8 with only 2 OADs (Irving and Rivers) in that span. Since then, we’ve gone to 4 Elite Eights between 2013-2019.
With a title, which is more than UK can say, and that is really the only Other program who deals with the turnover Year over year that we do.
Give K time. He will figure something out. It's not like we lost to Stephen F. Austin again. We have a young team who haven't had enough real game experience to deal with older teams like Michigan State and Illinois. Talent can only take you so far. When our young guys get used to the pressure, it will be a different team.
This is right on. We haven't really developed the players. Whatever the reason is, their game doesn't appreciably improve. They mature and are usually tougher players, but they don't really grow into 15-18 point scorers. The last time that happened it was the 2010 team with Singler, Scheyer, and Smith. Singler was a top 10 recruit but for various reasons stayed. But all three got better and it was their veteran toughness (also with veteran toughness if not necessarily massive development in Zoubek and Thomas).
But while a player like Goldwire is a good veteran leader and a tough defender, he's not really any better offensively. Or as an offensive PG/passer.
However, this year's team appears to have several players who are going to take time to develop. Moore and Hurt are not going to be drafted this year; and several freshmen are not likely to go anywhere. One hopes that Roach, Brakefield, Coleman and Mark Williams will be those 20-50 guys (along with Moore) develop. And, maybe Hurt can become a different version of Singler.
Or will players like Williams turn out to be another Bolden? And others just another Javin?
As noted above, when you get some 3-4 year players and recruit over them with a big OAD class it is both a discouragement to the player and simultaneously hurts their development.
I think K needs to go after 1-3 max OAD players and if he gets two, great. But develop the other guys.
One wonders whether they are really getting trained and I doubt K has the energy to really do it.
Goldwire was a 3 star recruit who has overachieved at this point. I'm tickled too death with his development. He has improved with each year being here. I think we've had some 3 and 4 star recruits here that people have had unrealistic expectations for.
Goldie is doing what he's supposed to do. I wish players like Antonio would've redshirt for development purposes and leadership. And shooters like Baker could get the extra year. It matters.
Antonio is having some good games overseas it seems. I enjoyed watching him when he was in. At times the game seemed too fast for him, but he always gave it his all. J-Gold is a kid I will love forever. He loves Duke and always leaves it all out there for his team. Baker is clearly not the player, (right now), we all wanted him to be, but I would bet he ends up being a significant factor for this team by year's end.
Quinn Cook, Amile Jefferson, and Mason Plumlee were all +10 points a game as juniors and seniors with Amile and Mason adding 10 boards. Amile and Quinn were starters and vital to us winning the 2015 national title. You need guys like that to add to OAD type players to succeed. Like I said above, some guys develop, some don’t. Hopefully every guy (with the exception of Jalen) from this years squad returns and we add in 2-3 OADs next year. I think that team would have a great chance at getting us back to the FF.
I always find it comical how people talk about having a team filled with upperclassmen, often pointing to Villanova as the blue print for sustaining success. And you know what? That narrative is complete horse crap. You know how many times Nova got past the Round of 32 in the past 10 tournaments? Try twice. 2016 and 2018. The end result, of course, was phenomenal. But, what about 2010, 2014, 2015, and 2017 when they lost in the 2nd Round as a 1 or 2 seed? Jay Wright has had some really good teams, but his teams haven't exactly been consistent.
It was a lot easier to sustain success when you had 5-star kids staying 3 and 4 years. That doesn't happen anymore. Realistically, two years max for a top 25 kid, unless they have some serious warts in their game. Consider the fact that Duke has only had 4 teams that played in the tournament with multiple OAD (2015, 2017, 2018, 2019). In a span of four years, we went to 3 Elite Eights. Kentucky went to 7 Elite Eights over the past 10 tournaments. Who in their right mind wouldn't take those odds? 11 out of 14 Elite 8 appearances for those two programs. Compared to 2 out of 10 for Nova. We have always recruited the best players, period. Always. In the 2015 title game, the freshmen scored 60 of the 68 points. We had the #1 team heading into the 2019 tournament - and our top four players were all freshmen. Not all freshmen classes are the same. It's a struggle, dealing with the constant turnover. But, your odds of winning a title are much better if you take talent over experience.
It was a lot easier to sustain success when you had 5-star kids staying 3 and 4 years. That doesn't happen anymore. Realistically, two years max for a top 25 kid, unless they have some serious warts in their game. Consider the fact that Duke has only had 4 teams that played in the tournament with multiple OAD (2015, 2017, 2018, 2019). In a span of four years, we went to 3 Elite Eights. Kentucky went to 7 Elite Eights over the past 10 tournaments. Who in their right mind wouldn't take those odds? 11 out of 14 Elite 8 appearances for those two programs. Compared to 2 out of 10 for Nova. We have always recruited the best players, period. Always. In the 2015 title game, the freshmen scored 60 of the 68 points. We had the #1 team heading into the 2019 tournament - and our top four players were all freshmen. Not all freshmen classes are the same. It's a struggle, dealing with the constant turnover. But, your odds of winning a title are much better if you take talent over experience.
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The downfall of bringing in multiple top 25 kids each year, is the 4-star recruits quickly realize they're going to struggle to EVER crack the starting lineup. Alex O'Connell knew that. Jordan Tucker found that out right away. But, Jordan Goldwire wasn't even a top 300 recruit, and he's had starter minutes the past two seasons. So yes, it is possible to carve out a role for yourself. Just got to be a little patient and work relentlessly in practice. K will reward players who go all-out on the defensive end.
Too logical and grounded in facts. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disallow this post.
Exactly. Having to defend Duke’s NCAA Tournament results from 2005-2012 on the national board was like working overtime. The 2010 title helped, but not a lot.
Is it a coaching or th tat these players can’t get enough playing to develop due to the talented OAD’s.It is a double edged sword are we willing to take a few extra losses by playing less talented players in order for them to hopefully develop.With the general reaction to a loss Imo this option would not go so well
Agree with you both. Having to try and get people to understand all of these clear reality points after they’ve spent years regurgitating the same tired false narratives is tiring. So thanks for doing it for me.
likewise on goldy...he attacks the rim now with confidence, remember how he use to look on breakaway lay ups
the 2010 title was the EASIEST title ever.....*rolling eyes*
I stopped going to RR. I only went there when this board was dead over the summer. But I got tired of the constant shots at Duke. It was either we paid Zion and Bagley or mocking us for not making the FF with those 2 and our perceived hypocrisy. So I just stopped visiting there.
This is the program with one title in the last 20+ years right?