60 years ago today

PSU87

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good argument- except that any sources are dead by now, and methods from 60 years ago aren't likely to still be a secret now.
It was all quite thoroughly reviewed in 1992, and any documents not released had to have good enough reason to be kept classified to convince the National Archives committee.

Two subsequent administrations (Trump and Biden) have elected to keep some of the documents classified.

That's some freakin' conspiracy when all these people who couldn't possibly have anything to hide are choosing to keep the docs classified.

Unless maybe Biden was on the Grassy Knoll that day:oops:
 

FTLPSU

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Well, all this certainly is interesting and generates some great conversations....
"No one likes conspiracies" I beg to differ. Over 60% of Americans believe there was a conspiracy. And, at its heart we all want to believe that it would take more than a total loser like Oswald with a mail order military surplus rifle to kill the most important man in the world. None of us want to believe the system is that fragile.

The "bullet hole" in the windshield is interesting, but.... it is not a through hole. It only goes partway through and the hole originates on the inside of the glass, not the outside. The Warren Commission explained it fairly thoroughly, and just because some guy who saw the windshield in the Smithsonian then did tests in his basement don't provide me with a convincing argument. The Zapruder film and the autopsy photos are evidence that the fatal head shot came from the rear, not the front.

You say "no way Oswald did it by himself", but I guess I would like to hear you expound on why you think he couldn't have done it by himself.
You are an eloquent writer with all sincerity. I am a lazy writer and better talker lol....there are a lot of circumstantial evidence to say that LHO wasn't even on 6th floor. Why would you mail order a rifle that you could walk into any gun store in TX and purchase one? Why take a pot shot at General Edwin Walker months earlier? A bolt action carcano rifle-junk. No way he makes those shots and hits 2 of 3....they were shot with more than 1 bullet---the magic bullet is a joke--the Warren commission (Dulles was on) so was Spectro and Ford (did regret there omissions after--Dulles was there to bully them into the story. Back to the bullet-a pristine bullet magically appears on a stretcher? The throat wound in JFKs front was not a tracheotomy. And the frontal shot--back and to the left. The multiple rifles--Enfield which isnt bolt action? Come on..it goes on. LHO knew he was set up why he ran all over town--was hanging in a movie theater? His handler told him to go there and wait...DPD just showed up cuz a guy saw him..like I said too much coincidental circumstantial evidence for LHO to do this solo. Hence why this is a conspiracy and never be solved--war is big business---$120B+ back then.
 

MacNit2.0

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I wasn’t around yet when this happened.

I also visited Dealy Plaza, years ago, and went upstairs in the Book Depository to see the view from that infamous window. It seems to me that there is more to this that we don’t know about. The angle that the shots would have to have been fired at seemed challenging to me, and it seems puzzling why Oswald wouldn’t have taken the straight-on oncoming shot and instead waited until the limo had rounded that bend and was moving away… unless of course, it was so that it would have also been in the line of fire from the grassy knoll.

But then again, who the hell knows.

A crazy and highly tragic event in our nation’s history.
It absolutely was conspiracy…laughable to think otherwise (if you look at all the evidence, etc. and compare.
 

MacNit2.0

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Who the hell does know. Unfortunately, the technology available at the time was what it was. An event like that today would have been captured by 100 cell phones from every angle.

I've read an awful lot about it over the years, and honestly, when you look at the facts, the official version is not as unbelievable as the conspiracy theorists make it out to be.

Two problems with most of the conspiracy theories...
1. Most if them rely on testimony that has changed over the years. For example, one of the more "famous" witnesses...can't remember if it was Moorman or Hill claimed to have run towards the grassy knoll moments after the shooting. However, photographs from that day taken many minutes after the event show her still standing in her original spot. The witnesses have changed their stories over the years.
2. The conspiracy would had to have been so large....Dallas PD, Secret Service, the Mob...there's just no way a conspiracy that big survives this long.

Plus....the conspiracy theorists do themselves no favors with some of the more outlandish tales...like fake trees in Dealey Plaza.
You are not familiar with the facts.

Absolutely was a conspiracy.
 
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MacNit2.0

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Oswald packed alot into 24 years...top secret marine, defects to Russia, marries the neice of KGB agent, welcomed home with government funds, visits Cuban and USSR Embassies in Mexico City...and has a thick CIA File. Some coincidence. Let's not forget a pistol toting night club owner being given unrestricted movement in the Dallas Police station, correcting the DA in a press conference and them in a moment of "sudden rage" killing Oswald who is protected by dozens of cops. Hmm...nothing to see here.
Spot on.

Oswald was just a patsy…just like he said.
 
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PSU87

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You are an eloquent writer with all sincerity. I am a lazy writer and better talker lol....there are a lot of circumstantial evidence to say that LHO wasn't even on 6th floor. Why would you mail order a rifle that you could walk into any gun store in TX and purchase one? Why take a pot shot at General Edwin Walker months earlier? A bolt action carcano rifle-junk. No way he makes those shots and hits 2 of 3....they were shot with more than 1 bullet---the magic bullet is a joke--the Warren commission (Dulles was on) so was Spectro and Ford (did regret there omissions after--Dulles was there to bully them into the story. Back to the bullet-a pristine bullet magically appears on a stretcher? The throat wound in JFKs front was not a tracheotomy. And the frontal shot--back and to the left. The multiple rifles--Enfield which isnt bolt action? Come on..it goes on. LHO knew he was set up why he ran all over town--was hanging in a movie theater? His handler told him to go there and wait...DPD just showed up cuz a guy saw him..like I said too much coincidental circumstantial evidence for LHO to do this solo. Hence why this is a conspiracy and never be solved--war is big business---$120B+ back then.
Well...
As far as the mail order rifle, and taking a shot at Walker....
Oswald was both unintelligent and crazy. I think the Walker shooting actually reinforces Oswald as being the shooter. He was a communist and was hell bent at furthering the cause.

The "magic" bullet theory is not so magic when you actually put Connelly in the proper position in the limo and have him turned slightly: the trajectory of the bullet is an almost perfect straight line.

As far as Oswald running all over town... yeah, again, he was both crazy and stupid. As far as the cops showing up, they had shown up at two places prior to finding Oswald in the theater that turned out to be other people...so it wasn't magic that they found him. Every cop in the city was looking.
 

PSU87

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You are not familiar with the facts.

Absolutely was a conspiracy.
It is hard to argue with such a well thought out argument as yours. I've read a great deal about it. Any "facts" you'd like to discuss, I'm all ears.
 

marshall23

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Spot on.

Oswald was just a patsy…just like he said.
Let's not forget that Kennedy's visit to Chicago, shortly before Dallas, was cancelled do to credible threats. Lot's of moving parts. There may or may not have been an assassination conspiracy. The government definitely conspired to keep the truth from the nation after the fact. Still is.
 

MacNit2.0

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A friend of mine says he thinks that Oswald did not shoot him as he was moving towards the Book Depository because Oswald was a sniveling coward who did not have the balls to shoot someone in the face. Probably true.

As for the Grassy Knoll, my thoughts about conspiracies and a shooter being there changed when I visited Dallas. It seemed so distant in the old films, but when you are there you see you could have thrown a baseball and hit the limo. It was so close. Also, Zapreuder and others were only feet away and would have easily seen anyone standing at the fence. Behind the fence was a parking lot with nowhere to run and hide. Nobody with a rifle would have stood there, it was just too open and close to the road. The sniper in the window? He had the perfect location you would pick if you had a choice. Oswald did it. He had the opportunity, he had the twisted motivation, he was a loser in life who could not keep a job or a marriage. F him.
You could not be more wrong - about Oswald and everything else

There were numerous, independently corroborated witnesses. You can read about them, you can even watch their testimonies on YouTube.

100% conspiracy. I have been to Dealey Plaza many times, have talked to witnesses, read 100s of books from every angle (including all of the ones trying to debunk conspiracy).

Absolutely a conspiracy…laughable to think otherwise.
 

MacNit2.0

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There has been no credible evidence, ballistic or forensic, that supports a shot from the front (Grassy Knoll). The one interesting 2nd shooter theory I've seen is an accidental discharge from one of the Secret Service follow cars.

Agree about Oswald and the frontal shot.... either a coward or indecisive.....
Not even remotely close to true.

Watch the documentary about the emergency room doctors…they are 100% that kill shot was from front.

Better yet, ask Cyril Wecht - world’s #1 pathologist who worked the case. Cyril can not be bought.
 
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MacNit2.0

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C'mon, you were in the military, so you get how classified documents work. The info in the documents themselves may seem incredibly benign, but if they in any way give up methods or sources, they stay classified.

Maybe someday we will find out what's in them, but my feeling is if there were something substantial it would have come out, but who knows.

The only thing I do know, is that if it were a conspiracy, at minimum Dallas PD and the Secret Service would have to be involved. Now throw in the autopsy team, and, hell, it was the Kennedy family that wanted the body back in Washington.... I just don't buy it. Way too many people would have to be involved. And our government isn't exactly great at keeping secrets. Some of our more sordid instances have come to light... but they've managed to keep this secret?
You only need select people and you limit their exposure. Very easily done (and very certainly that it was in this case - overwhelming evidence)
 

marshall23

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Well...
As far as the mail order rifle, and taking a shot at Walker....
Oswald was both unintelligent and crazy. I think the Walker shooting actually reinforces Oswald as being the shooter. He was a communist and was hell bent at furthering the cause.

The "magic" bullet theory is not so magic when you actually put Connelly in the proper position in the limo and have him turned slightly: the trajectory of the bullet is an almost perfect straight line.

As far as Oswald running all over town... yeah, again, he was both crazy and stupid. As far as the cops showing up, they had shown up at two places prior to finding Oswald in the theater that turned out to be other people...so it wasn't magic that they found him. Every cop in the city was looking.
Connelly, till his death insisted that he heard the shot that hit Kennedy and turned to look back....before he was hit. Now Connelly was an experienced hunter. Nelly, his wife agreed.
In fact, after Kennedy is hit, Connolly can be seen holding onto his hat....with the hand that had its wrist shattered by the bullet.
Also, no one has ever explained how the "magic" bullet could be missing fewer grains than Connolly carried around the rest of his life.
Also, I'd like to know why Oswald final phone call from prison was placed to North Carolina? His call was short circuited by the authorities? Who was he trying to reach? Why did they not allow the call to go through?
 

MacNit2.0

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Sep 5, 2023
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Well, all this certainly is interesting and generates some great conversations....
"No one likes conspiracies" I beg to differ. Over 60% of Americans believe there was a conspiracy. And, at its heart we all want to believe that it would take more than a total loser like Oswald with a mail order military surplus rifle to kill the most important man in the world. None of us want to believe the system is that fragile.

The "bullet hole" in the windshield is interesting, but.... it is not a through hole. It only goes partway through and the hole originates on the inside of the glass, not the outside. The Warren Commission explained it fairly thoroughly, and just because some guy who saw the windshield in the Smithsonian then did tests in his basement don't provide me with a convincing argument. The Zapruder film and the autopsy photos are evidence that the fatal head shot came from the rear, not the front.

You say "no way Oswald did it by himself", but I guess I would like to hear you expound on why you think he couldn't have done it by himself.
The Zapruder film shows precisely the opposite - a kill shot from the front.
 

MacNit2.0

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Not to mention the testimony of Clint Hill who has said that when he reached the limo, he looked at the back of the president's head and saw a gaping wound..."there was nothing left," The would was in the back of his head....Hill and the Doctor's at Parkland knew this was an exit wound. As the wound in the throat was very small.....
Agreed there are some really crazy stories out there....body doubles, an accidental misfire from the secret service etc. But, the government has protected someone or something for a very long time. Oswald was well known to the CIA and the FBI...the FBI had an agent, James Hosty assigned to monitor him. How did he end up unaccounted for on that day? Why was Hosty told to destroy a note Oswald had written to him, after the assassination, by his supervisor?
You are spot on Marshall23.
 

MacNit2.0

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Sep 5, 2023
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Well...
As far as the mail order rifle, and taking a shot at Walker....
Oswald was both unintelligent and crazy. I think the Walker shooting actually reinforces Oswald as being the shooter. He was a communist and was hell bent at furthering the cause.

The "magic" bullet theory is not so magic when you actually put Connelly in the proper position in the limo and have him turned slightly: the trajectory of the bullet is an almost perfect straight line.

As far as Oswald running all over town... yeah, again, he was both crazy and stupid. As far as the cops showing up, they had shown up at two places prior to finding Oswald in the theater that turned out to be other people...so it wasn't magic that they found him. Every cop in the city was looking.
Oswald was a Marine, had maximum security clearance, and was fairly easily identified as a anti-Castro.
 

marshall23

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And you have the testimony of eye witnesses who saw the sniper shooting from the 6th floor window.

I find it interesting that legendary reporter, Robert MacNeil, ran into the Book Depository after the shooting looking for a phone. As he did a man was walking out and MacNeil and he were face to face. Investigators have come to the conclusion that he ran into Oswald on his way out. MacNeil says he could never remember the mans face.
Oswald was there. Not many dispute that. He certainly may have fired some shots too.....I just don't believe he was a lone nut.
You need to do some research on his reputed actions a few months before the assassination.....what's going on with that Mexico City thing?
So many layers here. His wife was living with Ruth Paine. Her sister worked for the CIA. Here's a hint. Ruth is still alive.
 

MacNit2.0

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It is hard to argue with such a well thought out argument as yours. I've read a great deal about it. Any "facts" you'd like to discuss, I'm all ears.
My goodness, I could go on for days about this.

Later today, I can lay out a couple of dozen key facts that anyone can confirm.
 
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marshall23

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Oswald was a Marine, had maximum security clearance, and was fairly easily identified as a anti-Castro.
A marine who served in radar tracking U2 flights over USSR. Who found his way to Russia days after leaving the service and after marrying Marina, is repatriated back to the US.......even though he promised to reveal secrets to the Soviets in front of a US Ambassador. How does a guy like this fly under the radar? This is the peak of the Cold War. How many such cases do we think existed?
 

marshall23

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My goodness, I could go on for days about this.

Later today, I can lay out a couple of dozen key facts that anyone can confirm.
The best case scenario is that the government shoved the lone nut theory down our throats because a Cuban or Communist plot might have led to WW3. If so, we may not be here debating this. However, that threat is long gone and if that was the motivation, its time for the entire story.
 

MacNit2.0

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A marine who served in radar tracking U2 flights over USSR. Who found his way to Russia days after leaving the service and after marrying Marina, is repatriated back to the US.......even though he promised to reveal secrets to the Soviets in front of a US Ambassador. How does a guy like this fly under the radar? This is the peak of the Cold War. How many such cases do we think existed?
Right again. Oswald was very likely part of a counterintelligence program. At the very least, he was a USA plant in Soviet Union.

Certainly not some irrational “dumbbell.”
 

MacNit2.0

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The best case scenario is that the government shoved the lone nut theory down our throats because a Cuban or Communist plot might have led to WW3. If so, we may not be here debating this. However, that threat is long gone and if that was the motivation, its time for the entire story.
I agree. But the evidence points squarely to at least some (even if it is isolated) USA government involvement with some organized crime foot soldiers, etc to help complete the job.
 

Tom_PSU

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Whomever is correct here, I know this. When the Warren Commission Report was released most people( including me) accepted it. Why would the Government lie to us? Then came Vietnam, the release of the papers, and the knowledge of all the other shady stuff our leaders did, and continue to do.
The real legacy of the tragedy in Dallas is that today a large percentage of people wouldn’t believe the Government if they said the Sun rises in the East.
Ronald Reagan was the first politician who understood the new reality with his comment about the most feared words in the English language “I’m from the Government and I’m here to help you”.
 

PSU87

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Connelly, till his death insisted that he heard the shot that hit Kennedy and turned to look back....before he was hit. Now Connelly was an experienced hunter. Nelly, his wife agreed.
In fact, after Kennedy is hit, Connolly can be seen holding onto his hat....with the hand that had its wrist shattered by the bullet.
Also, no one has ever explained how the "magic" bullet could be missing fewer grains than Connolly carried around the rest of his life.
Also, I'd like to know why Oswald final phone call from prison was placed to North Carolina? His call was short circuited by the authorities? Who was he trying to reach? Why did they not allow the call to go through?
The phone call is definitely curious, but testimony from the phone operator AND the call slip both show the call was not answered. The call was not prevented from going through.
 

PSU87

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The Zapruder film shows precisely the opposite - a kill shot from the front.
It does not. And blood spatter analysis and the physics of the ballistics and the wound published by the NIH also conclude a shot from the rear.
 

marshall23

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Oswald was there. Not many dispute that. He certainly may have fired some shots too.....I just don't believe he was a lone nut.
You need to do some research on his reputed actions a few months before the assassination.....what's going on with that Mexico City thing?
So many layers here. His wife was living with Ruth Paine. Her sister worked for the CIA. Here's a hint. Ruth is still alive.

Another interesting character that 24 year old LHO just happened to bump into.
 

PSU87

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Right again. Oswald was very likely part of a counterintelligence program. At the very least, he was a USA plant in Soviet Union.

Certainly not some irrational “dumbbell.”
So, a guy diagnosed as mentally disturbed at 12, who attended 12 different schools without ever getting his HS diploma somehow became a genius in the Marines?

Oswald was emotionally unstable and very, very unintelligent.
 

dcf4psu

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It's hard to believe how many people today have no idea the significance of November 22nd in American history. PBS Nova had an episode looking at the ballistics only of the assassination. I never believed in a conspiracy to begin with, and this Nova episode more than solidified my opinion.
 

PSU87

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Oswald was a Marine, had maximum security clearance, and was fairly easily identified as a anti-Castro.
Oswald did not have maximum security clearance. He had a Confidential clearance. In the security clearance world, that's the lowest level. Confidential- Secret- Top Secret- Top Secret SCI.
 
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Nitt1300

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Oswald was a Marine, had maximum security clearance, and was fairly easily identified as a anti-Castro.

Oswald did not have maximum security clearance. He had a Confidential clearance. In the security clearance world, that's the lowest level. Confidential- Secret- Top Secret- Top Secret SCI.
Correct- pretty much everyone gets a confidential clearance. Until you get to Top Secret or higher you don't see much.
 
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Bkmtnittany1

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Gerald Posner's book, "Case Closed" and the last documentary done by Peter Jennings before he passed is what convinced me...but wtf do i know....
 
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PSU87

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A marine who served in radar tracking U2 flights over USSR. Who found his way to Russia days after leaving the service and after marrying Marina, is repatriated back to the US.......even though he promised to reveal secrets to the Soviets in front of a US Ambassador. How does a guy like this fly under the radar? This is the peak of the Cold War. How many such cases do we think existed?
When examining anything Oswald did, you have to take into context the fact that the dude was nuts. He was diagnosed as early as 12 as having mental issues. Was thrown out of or flunked out of twelve different schools. Was court martialed twice. He was crazy.

Its hard to rationalize the doings of crazy people.
 
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Woodpecker

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Although the Seinfeld episode with the 2nd spitter, might be able to shed light on what really happened!