93-94 Sonics and 18-19 Duke

[BeerPoisoning]

We remind me a lot of the SuperSonics 93-94 team. Yeah, Zion’s reminds me of Shawn Kemp but the comparisons run deeper than that. Great team defense, Tre Jones was our Gary Payton. Kendall Gill is comparable to RJ, soaked up a lot of shots and was unpredictable efficiency wise. Schrempf ended up being a prolific 3PT shooter, but he wasn’t his first few years in the NBA. I know he had a low 30’s percentage, but he lit it up from time to time. Remind you of Cam? They had the best record that year. MJ was busy playing baseball and they were considered the best team by a big margin. In the end... They lost in the playoffs to Denver.

I read an article a while ago (years ago lol) about them being the best that never did it. I remember it mentioning that the failed perimeter shooting made defenses stack up on Kemp and offense failed as result. Sounds familiar. A quote stuck out to me too that I still remember: “There’s a difference between teams that are built to win games and teams that are built to win championships.”

IMO — Sonics’ narrative that year couldn’t summarize us any better this year. I think that quote, unfortunately, is the sad truth.

 

[Buzzooka Joe]

Interesting..

All UNCheat hate aside, it would have been nice having a 93-94 Sonics’ Sam Perkins comparable player on this squad.. a Center that shoots 37% from 3..

 

[dukehokie]

That’s a little bit of a stretch but I see what you’re doing. There is however a HUGE difference in advancing to the Elite Eight and getting booted in the first round of a series between an 8 and 1 seed

This team absolutely was built for a title before the season and well into December. Injuries stunted this team’s growth. Every game after Syracuse K was piecing together a week to week plan as opposed to a broad season goal.

When you live week to week like that, you are on borrowed time. Maybe you get the right matchup, maybe you don’t.

This team is seriously two missed free throws or a missed reverse layup by McQuaid, or an extra offensive rebound, or one less turnover, or one three to drop, or one extra possession away playing this weekend. Then all of that “blueprint” rhetoric and all of that “K failed Zion” talk goes away.

I think if you’re looking at NBA comps, the Knicks choking in 88-89 to the young not yet Bulls in the conference semifinals is more reminiscent. Just my opinion.

 

[AlanInNJ]

And add an Allen shot rolling in the basket instead of off the rim at the buzzer in the 2018 E8, and we would have 2 consecutive final fours.

But it just didn't happen. Tough losses to take, both of them.

 

[dukedevilz]

The Sonics lost in a 5 games series to a a team that was barely above .500 (42-40). We lost a 1-pt game in a single elimination game to the #5 team in the country. Also, Seattle was 14th in the NBA in 3-point shooting percentage. Some similarities, but not crazy comparable.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

That’s a little bit of a stretch but I see what you’re doing. There is however a HUGE difference in advancing to the Elite Eight and getting booted in the first round of a series between an 8 and 1 seed

This team absolutely was built for a title before the season and well into December. Injuries stunted this team’s growth. Every game after Syracuse K was piecing together a week to week plan as opposed to a broad season goal.

When you live week to week like that, you are on borrowed time. Maybe you get the right matchup, maybe you don’t.

This team is seriously two missed free throws or a missed reverse layup by McQuaid, or an extra offensive rebound, or one less turnover, or one three to drop, or one extra possession away playing this weekend. Then all of that “blueprint” rhetoric and all of that “K failed Zion” talk goes away.

I think if you’re looking at NBA comps, the Knicks choking in 88-89 to the young not yet Bulls in the conference semifinals is more reminiscent. Just my opinion.

If we pull out every measure, there’s tons of differences. Sonics were egotistical, Kemp’s efficiency was average, no injuries. Also including how far each team advanced. Failing to win while possessing the most talent (players similar to ours this year) was my point. Your Knicks comparison is pretty fair, didn’t Jordan go bananas and drop 40 in almost every game?

All that K failing Zion and RJ taking too many shots garbage is people looking to point blame. RJ is taking a lot of unnecessary heat, a lot of people have a clouded perception. Z and RJ are the only 2 players on the roster with a noteworthy ability to create their own shot. We can’t just pass the ball to Z in the post every play and see what happens. His efficiency is so incredible because he has the offensive IQ to know when he can muscle it up and when he can’t. Occasionally he gets a quick step and dashes the basket from outside the paint but that style also makes him a turnover machine. He has decent handles for his physicality, but his ball control (protecting from steals) isn’t developed. His aggressiveness also makes him prone to a charging whistle. Typical for his frame.

RJ on the other hand, is a wing player that can handle the ball better. People don’t seem to understand that when our offense stalls, RJ is naturally forced to make something happen. He’s not as polished around the rim as Zion, but his ball security and ability to shoot off the dribble makes him a better option. I know everyone thinks “K just lets him do what he wants with tunnel scoring vision” because at times he does take rushed and/or poor shot selections... But you can’t tell a kid to defer from making a play until it’s obvious that he’s the only option.

Sorry - Ranted off topic a bit longer than I meant to. Anyway, our talent this year was plenty to win a banner. I don’t think shooting a bunch of threes is mandatory for winning, but better shooting sure would have made us more respected and opened things up. It’s hard to prevail when we don’t have the shooting touch to capitalize on teams double and triple teaming Zion / RJ.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

The Sonics lost in a 5 games series to a a team that was barely above .500 (42-40). We lost a 1-pt game in a single elimination game to the #5 team in the country. Also, Seattle was 14th in the NBA in 3-point shooting percentage. Some similarities, but not crazy comparable.

Yeah, substantial diff losing to the young Nuggets right off the bat vs experienced Michigan St in the E8. Just making the connection with some roster similarities and failure to win the ‘chip.

Way diff game back then. Most teams averaged around 33-36% which would be laughed at in today’s era. George Karl loved the 3-ball though and Seattle shot well over 10 in almost all of the playoff series. Doesn’t seem like much but league average attempts were like 7/8 maybe 9 max. So it was easy to virtually ignore the perimeter. I grew up loving Reggie Miller, he’s one of the most prolific all time. He shot like 4 on average each game til the later 90s. This day and age guys like Curry and Harden are firing 10-15/game.

 

[Dattier]

I don't wanna talk about it.

 

[dukehokie]

If we pull out every measure, there’s tons of differences. Sonics were egotistical, Kemp’s efficiency was average, no injuries. Also including how far each team advanced. Failing to win while possessing the most talent (players similar to ours this year) was my point. Your Knicks comparison is pretty fair, didn’t Jordan go bananas and drop 40 in almost every game?

All that K failing Zion and RJ taking too many shots garbage is people looking to point blame. RJ is taking a lot of unnecessary heat, a lot of people have a clouded perception. Z and RJ are the only 2 players on the roster with a noteworthy ability to create their own shot. We can’t just pass the ball to Z in the post every play and see what happens. His efficiency is so incredible because he has the offensive IQ to know when he can muscle it up and when he can’t. Occasionally he gets a quick step and dashes the basket from outside the paint but that style also makes him a turnover machine. He has decent handles for his physicality, but his ball control (protecting from steals) isn’t developed. His aggressiveness also makes him prone to a charging whistle. Typical for his frame.

RJ on the other hand, is a wing player that can handle the ball better. People don’t seem to understand that when our offense stalls, RJ is naturally forced to make something happen. He’s not as polished around the rim as Zion, but his ball security and ability to shoot off the dribble makes him a better option. I know everyone thinks “K just lets him do what he wants with tunnel scoring vision” because at times he does take rushed and/or poor shot selections... But you can’t tell a kid to defer from making a play until it’s obvious that he’s the only option.

Sorry - Ranted off topic a bit longer than I meant to. Anyway, our talent this year was plenty to win a banner. I don’t think shooting a bunch of threes is mandatory for winning, but better shooting sure would have made us more respected and opened things up. It’s hard to prevail when we don’t have the shooting touch to capitalize on teams double and triple teaming Zion / RJ.

Agree. The lack of three point shooting didn’t doom us. The lack of three point shooting within the 5 out ultimately made us normal. When this team got out in transition and made plays off of Tre’s penetration, this team was unstoppable. Oh well.

The lack of any transistion offense after Zion went down was head scratching.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

Agree. The lack of three point shooting didn’t doom us. The lack of three point shooting within the 5 out ultimately made us normal. When this team got out in transition and made plays off of Tre’s penetration, this team was unstoppable. Oh well.

The lack of any transistion offense after Zion went down was head scratching.

Suddenly just stopped getting steals and only picked them up at a very average rate. Competition was stiffer but even against ND State too. When Zion came back it was like a different defensive identity. Not that we played bad defense, it was good for the most part. Just very neutral instead of aggresively playing passing lanes. I think some hot shooting on contested shots deflated us a little bit rather than inspired. Defensive transition was a little lazy too, especially against MSU.

 

[Longtimeuserbannedyearsago]

That’s a little bit of a stretch but I see what you’re doing. There is however a HUGE difference in advancing to the Elite Eight and getting booted in the first round of a series between an 8 and 1 seed

This team absolutely was built for a title before the season and well into December. Injuries stunted this team’s growth. Every game after Syracuse K was piecing together a week to week plan as opposed to a broad season goal.

When you live week to week like that, you are on borrowed time. Maybe you get the right matchup, maybe you don’t.

This team is seriously two missed free throws or a missed reverse layup by McQuaid, or an extra offensive rebound, or one less turnover, or one three to drop, or one extra possession away playing this weekend. Then all of that “blueprint” rhetoric and all of that “K failed Zion” talk goes away.

I think if you’re looking at NBA comps, the Knicks choking in 88-89 to the young not yet Bulls in the conference semifinals is more reminiscent. Just my opinion.

This team was also a point blank tip in away from losing in the opening weekend when having possibly the best or one of the best players ever in college. In that game, only one player could keep the game close, and duke let that one player keep it close.

This duke team had the ability to dominate on both ends of the court. Very very rare. For multiple reasons, that didn't happen much the last month or two.

 

[dukehokie]

This team was also a point blank tip in away from losing in the opening weekend when having possibly the best or one of the best players ever in college. In that game, only one player could keep the game close, and duke let that one player keep it close.

This duke team had the ability to dominate on both ends of the court. Very very rare. For multiple reasons, that didn't happen much the last month or two.

I agree. Since February, Zion or not, the team was just “normal.” A far cry from the squad people thought could beat an NBA team. A lot of factors lead to that.

They still competed incredibly hard and always had themselves in a position to win. We got lucky a few times and our luck ran out. This team was too good for luck to be such a factor though.