Add Elon Musk to the growing list advocating for an eventual UBI.

op2

Senior
Mar 16, 2014
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529
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UBI is Universal Basic Income. The idea is, in 20 years there's just not going to be jobs for people that robots can't do better and more cheaply. I hope Trump succeeds on his quest to bring some of those jobs back to the US but even if he does succeed it's a temporary fix. The future is going to be interesting. I wish I was just being born now so I could see what the next century will be like.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-...DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDUFJEQkNLMl8xBHNlYwNzYw--
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
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UBI is Universal Basic Income. The idea is, in 20 years there's just not going to be jobs for people that robots can't do better and more cheaply. I hope Trump succeeds on his quest to bring some of those jobs back to the US but even if he does succeed it's a temporary fix. The future is going to be interesting. I wish I was just being born now so I could see what the next century will be like.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-...DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDUFJEQkNLMl8xBHNlYwNzYw--

Not in favor. Humans are inherently lazy. Guaranteed income only emboldens lazy behavior. I, nor Elon, has any idea what this country will look like in 20 years. We could have new technologies changing our lives in incredibly profound ways and creating opportunities we currently don't dream possible. Hand outs disincentivize people from seeking employment and taking jobs they may normally not take. Hand up, always a great idea.
 

DvlDog4WVU

All-Conference
Feb 2, 2008
46,686
1,751
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UBI is Universal Basic Income. The idea is, in 20 years there's just not going to be jobs for people that robots can't do better and more cheaply. I hope Trump succeeds on his quest to bring some of those jobs back to the US but even if he does succeed it's a temporary fix. The future is going to be interesting. I wish I was just being born now so I could see what the next century will be like.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-...DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDUFJEQkNLMl8xBHNlYwNzYw--
Are we just going to rename welfare?
 

op2

Senior
Mar 16, 2014
11,168
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Not in favor. Humans are inherently lazy. Guaranteed income only emboldens lazy behavior. I, not Elon, has any idea what this country will look like in 20 years. We could have new technologies changing our lives in incredibly profound ways and creating opportunities we currently don't dream possible. Hand outs disincentivize people from seeking employment and taking jobs they may normally take. Hand up, always a great idea.

You're out of touch with the technological advances being made. In the past the creation of new technologies made new jobs while destroying old ones but now the technology is simply getting too good. You need to stop wasting your time on the political websites and start reading up on AI and machine learning and all that. Big changes...BIG changes...are coming.
 

op2

Senior
Mar 16, 2014
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Are we just going to rename welfare?

No, we're going to get rid of welfare. Part of the attraction of the UBI is that it gets rid of the byzantine welfare system and it's complicated regulations. It makes government simpler. It takes away incentives for people to cheat the government out of welfare money and takes away the cat and mouse game to catch them.

Different parts of the country are already trying this in certain doses. I think Finland and Canada have pilot projects. India is going to start just giving their poor people a bit of money instead of having this crazy, giant welfare system that doesn't work.
 

bamaEER

Freshman
May 29, 2001
32,435
60
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You're out of touch with the technological advances being made. In the past the creation of new technologies made new jobs while destroying old ones but now the technology is simply getting too good. You need to stop wasting your time on the political websites and start reading up on AI and machine learning and all that. Big changes...BIG changes...are coming.
It is an enigma. We can see it (automation) now (coal) and will only get worse. Those manufacturing jobs are now in retail. But those retail jobs are being replaced by kiosks and self service registers. Where do those workers go next?
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
38
You're out of touch with the technological advances being made. In the past the creation of new technologies made new jobs while destroying old ones but now the technology is simply getting too good. You need to stop wasting your time on the political websites and start reading up on AI and machine learning and all that. Big changes...BIG changes...are coming.

LMAO. I spent my career working for the largest consultancy in the world. We had world renowned technology expertise. I have more than a passing knowledge of the subject. But thanks for your insight.

Anyone believing they have a clue as to what the world will look like in 20 years is dreaming.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
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It is an enigma. We can see it (automation) now (coal) and will only get worse. Those manufacturing jobs are now in retail. But those retail jobs are being replaced by kiosks and self service registers. Where do those workers go next?

The technology in the coal industry is an interesting example. There Is no question that automation reduced the number of miners. But it dramatically increased the number of workers in manufacturing, frabticating, sales, maintenance, service, etal. and other sectors that provided the support to the mines to gain the productivity. Thousands of coal miner jobs were lost but how many were created?

Look at what fracking has done to the energy industry. Reserves, previously unavailable to us, are now being exploited. Thousands upon thousands of good paying jobs created.

One thing is true however, the skills required to succeed will change.
 
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Dec 17, 2007
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It is an enigma. We can see it (automation) now (coal) and will only get worse. Those manufacturing jobs are now in retail. But those retail jobs are being replaced by kiosks and self service registers. Where do those workers go next?
How about designing, assembling and shipping those kiosks?
 

TarHeelEer

Redshirt
Dec 15, 2002
89,286
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LMAO. I spent my career working for the largest consultancy in the world. We had world renowned technology expertise. I have more than a passing knowledge of the subject. But thanks for your insight.

Anyone believing they have a clue as to what the world will look like in 20 years is dreaming.

Pfffffft


 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
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How about designing, assembling and shipping those kiosks?

Great point. That is why the drive to $15 is self defeating. A minimum wage at $15/hour will almost ensure lots of automation to replace those workers. Simple cost/benefit.

My daughters all worked in restaurants as entry level jobs to earn some money and to learn the value of a dollar. These are great jobs and the kids learn so much. I would hate to see them go away.
 

op2

Senior
Mar 16, 2014
11,168
529
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LMAO. I spent my career working for the largest consultancy in the world. We had world renowned technology expertise. I have more than a passing knowledge of the subject. But thanks for your insight.

Anyone believing they have a clue as to what the world will look like in 20 years is dreaming.

AI and machine learning is like nothing that has come before. Look into it.
 

op2

Senior
Mar 16, 2014
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Great point. That is why the drive to $15 is self defeating. A minimum wage at $15/hour will almost ensure lots of automation to replace those workers. Simple cost/benefit.

My daughters all worked in restaurants as entry level jobs to earn some money and to learn the value of a dollar. These are great jobs and the kids learn so much. I would hate to see them go away.

But even without an increase in the minimum wage to $15 eventually automation will be able to do it cheaper. Then what?
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
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AI and machine learning is like nothing that has come before. Look into it.

I understand AI at least as well as a lay person can. But AI is not new. It's been around a long time. We were discussing AI concepts many years ago. Neural networking/intelligent networks and the like.

Again, 20 years is a long time. Jobs destroyed. New jobs created. Brand new industries created, not just domestically, but internationally. Jobs requiring no or very little local presence. Jobs we can't even imagine today.

I live in north of Dallas. I was on our local school foundation board. We built a new facility funded in large part by TI and other businesses like Capital One, Baylor Hospital and Accenture. It is a new learning facility. The curriculum was developed in partnership with our business partners. The classrooms use only team learning and team problem solving. The curriculum is tailored for the skills needed tomorrow. Internships with our business partners encouraged for practical application.

The backlog of students wishing to get in is enormous. More schools planned.
 

PriddyBoy

Junior
May 29, 2001
17,174
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creation of new technologies made new jobs while destroying old ones but now the technology is simply getting too good.
True but history does not foretell the future. We see Firsts every day. We've never had such a Welfare State heading into a wide scale technology surge. We should have tightened up our immigration policies a long time ago, but now it is more important than ever with the automation that coming. We need to be careful and encourage immigration when it suits our needs.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
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But even without an increase in the minimum wage to $15 eventually automation will be able to do it cheaper. Then what?

We change, we adapt. Always have. I remember when everyone said computers would replace workers. They have the same concerns as you. Instead we had an explosion of new jobs, new careers, new technologies like the internet, etc. The jobs will change, certainly. But more and different opportunities created. 20 years is a long, long time.

I read a great book called The Seventh Wave or something like that. It was titled the Seventh Wave because presumably each 7th wave of the ocean is more turbulent, more disruptive than the rest. The author likened this to technology disruption. And in every circumstance, we created more opportunities than we lost.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
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True but history does not foretell the future. We see Firsts every day. We've never had such a Welfare State heading into a wide scale technology surge. We should have tightened up our immigration policies a long time ago, but now it is more important than ever with the automation that coming. We need to be careful and encourage immigration when it suits our needs.

Could not agree more. We don't need low skilled workers. Our immigration ought to focus on the highly skilled, the entrepreneurs, those with existing capital and the like. Get away from family oriented immigration to value added immigration.
 
Dec 17, 2007
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Could not agree more. We don't need low skilled workers. Our immigration ought to focus on the highly skilled, the entrepreneurs, those with existing capital and the like. Get away from family oriented immigration to value added immigration.
In the little town I live in in North Georgia there is a chicken processing plant that runs an employment ad in the paper continuously. They pay $14.50 an hour to start for unskilled labor plus health benefits for the worker and offer a plan for family members, partly paid by the worker. I know it's not the most glamorous or best paying job but $14.50 a hour for unskilled labor gets you, with a little overtime every week, at about $30k a year before taxes with benefits. UNSKILLED LABOR!

The majority of the people who fill these jobs are from Mexico and Guatemala. It is a large Hispanic community in the county and they support several locally run businesses, who pay taxes as do the workers, and also at least two large churches that I know of. They are not without their problems as the paper prints a weekly arrest report which always has a few Hispanic names; mostly DUI, driving without a license and insurance and the like.

The majority of the arrests are from the locals which tend to be drug related, breaking and entering, assault and battery and the more violent offenses. None of them applied for the jobs in the chicken plant I guess, nor would they I assume.

My point is that a UBI is always going to be sought by the ones who least actually need it. And the basic jobs in the country will still need to rely on "imported" labor. And many of those jobs will never be fully automated, just like the chicken plant.
 
Dec 17, 2007
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Our immigration ought to focus on the highly skilled, the entrepreneurs, those with existing capital and the like.

Except that when you take the highly skilled entrepreneurs with existing capital out of their native country you draw down on the opportunities that could be created there and open the doors for the rest to seek jobs elsewhere.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
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Except that when you take the highly skilled entrepreneurs with existing capital out of their native country you draw down on the opportunities that could be created there and open the doors for the rest to seek jobs elsewhere.

It's called competition. It was up to those countries to create the environment for businesses to Floreis. If they do, they will keep their people.

California is losing businesses to Texas right and left. Why? Competition.
 

op2

Senior
Mar 16, 2014
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It's called competition. It was up to those countries to create the environment for businesses to Floreis. If they do, they will keep their people.

California is losing businesses to Texas right and left. Why? Competition.

Competition is how those foreign countries attract companies that used to employ people in the US.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
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Competition is how those foreign countries attract companies that used to employ people in the US.

As you know, competition changes with changing economics. The US needs to provide a more accommodating business environment to keep the businesses in the United States. And if competitors are using practices like manipulating their currencies, we need to have the ability to Address that.
 

op2

Senior
Mar 16, 2014
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529
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As you know, competition changes with changing economics. The US needs to provide a more accommodating business environment to keep the businesses in the United States. And if competitors are using practices like manipulating their currencies, we need to have the ability to Address that.

The business environment isn't the issue. The issue is that people in other countries will work for ten times less than they do here.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
28,197
91
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The business environment isn't the issue. The issue is that people in other countries will work for ten times less than they do here.

No, the business environment is the issue. Regulations place huge burdens on American businesses. Our tax burdens are the highest in the world. There are many things we can do to become much more competitive. And as states do, we can always provide incentives if the cost benefit analysis is strong.
 

PriddyBoy

Junior
May 29, 2001
17,174
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The business environment isn't the issue. The issue is that people in other countries will work for ten times less than they do here.
They don't have a choice. Well, except for leaving/escaping and finding a better situation.