Adjustments

[Sec_112]

The same group of posters was ripping CCC when the team went to the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney? I don't recall that, but maybe you have some examples.

They weren't ripping him. But all of us with any history know the two or three guys who suddenly went silent and waited all of one year to start shredding the guy again.

I have no problem with a reasonable assessment. There's PLENTY to criticize. But these guys who obviously just don't like the guy are pretty obvious at some point.

 

[SimpsonElmwood]

I'm sorry, Lunker. But you've been around here long enough to know better. You're not some Johnny-come-lately who spouts this stuff without context or some endless campaign of the same yammering viewpoints.

At some point, the track record tells you what this truly is. I doubt anyone in the NCAA coaching profession would have disputed hiring Carmody, Collins and yes, even KO at the time. All of them walked in here with good reputations - at worst. And what's been the results?

That's 20+ YEARS! Twenty years of hoping - simply hoping - to make the NIT or reach .500 in conference. Three coaches HOPING to have back-to-back strong seasons. How much lower do the standards have to be? That's not something you can simply brush aside with a new mentality. It's 20+ years of fact.

Yes, it's a loser's mentality, and most of us hate it. I'm with you if you tell me the the psyche needs to totally change, and many use it as an excuse. But this isn't the same NU as 1990. They've actually put some money into the program and operated like an organization that generates the tens of millions that it does.

They've hired coaches on career upswings. And I don't believe for a second that BC, CC and KO walked in here thinking about the history, fan base and challenge to recruit. All of them probably thought they could be better than the NU history and get the program over the hump. All of us know the results.

If there's going to be an objective analysis - and more importantly, a fair and objective evaluation to find the right guy to turn this around, you can't ignore the grade restrictions ... the fan base ... the truth about recruiting ... and much more. Otherwise, you end up with KO. And God only knows how many out here still walk around with scars from the blip of his tenure.

We are close to breaking through. This was one of the toughest jobs in the country, a place no one wanted to coach.

Look back before KON - Bill Foster took Duke from a .500 team to three consecutive 20-win seasons. He was 54-141 at Northwestern and won 13 Big Ten games in 7 seasons. Couple of those wins were against a scandal-ridden Minnesota team, so he really only won 11 B1G games. The most frequent image I recall from those years is Foster calling time out to attempt to stop a ridiculous run by the opponent.

The next coach was Byrdsong, who was a very nice man but was not a good coach. He had one winning season out of five at Detroit Mercy, his only other HC job. When they did the search for Byrd, no one wanted the job. In addition, there was point shaving, walk on the wild side, etc.

We all know what happened during the KON area.

The Carmody years used an offensive system and demonstrated that NU could be a competitive team. It's akin to the run and shoot or triple option in football, where a disciplined system allows a team to punch above its weight.

Collins, to his credit, is trying to break through a conventional approach. He's trying to recruit top talent and without a gimmicky offensive scheme. Now he has the facilities to complement the academics. This is why this year is so important. I'd be really bummed if there was no progress and he gets canned. There's a learning curve around recruiting and admissions, so a new staff would take a year or two to figure that out, then a year or two to develop the players. We'd be looking at 2026 and that's a long time from now.

 

[Sec_112]

I criticize and will continue to do so. What I will not do is call for his dismissal before he fails to deliver a 9 win season. Which I know you believe is not reasonable, but I think is the bare minimum with a, relative to the B1G this year, at least average roster.

I appreciate the balance of this direction.

I don't know how anyone can put a number on this team until there's some idea of when Audige returns. At this moment, you can't depend on much from Berry, Simmons and Beran (a total of seven points vs Providence). All of us are hoping at least one of them evolves into a dependable guy.

If you want to smack Collins for not having much outside of Boo, Nance and RY, I can buy that. But the nine wins without Audige is just some random number without much context.

 

[GatoLouco]

I appreciate the balance of this direction.

I don't know how anyone can put a number on this team until there's some idea of when Audige returns. At this moment, you can't depend on much from Berry, Simmons and Beran (a total of seven points vs Providence). All of us are hoping at least one of them evolves into a dependable guy.

If you want to smack Collins for not having much outside of Boo, Nance and RY, I can buy that. But the nine wins without Audige is just some random number without much context.

I've broken it down in another thread where I think it's reasonable to believe they will come from. And the reasonable number was actually 11. 9 for me is more of a minimum acceptable. The one thing that can derail that is Nance getting hurt.

https://northwestern.forums.rivals....immage-vs-iowa-state.59075/page-4#post-880569

 

[mountaindrew]

Nance and Young are currently the only two guys that CAN play the position. That is why they for the most part cannot be on the floor at the same time. There would be no one really ready to spell them and it would expose them to too much opportunity to get fouls at the position if on the floor at the same time. Occasionally matchups may get us to 5 minutes or so in a game when both would be on the floor but most of the time, not a good idea.

You're pointing out my main beef with CCC. He's way too much like BC - doesn't realize that rebounding is legal, and it even helps teams wins basketball games; and he recruits post players the same way Fitz does the OL - only if somebody puts a gun to his head. Why do we only have three total post players on the whole team? Just maybe if we had one or two more instead of 27 wings on the roster, Nance could play his natural position, and he and Young could play at the same time. Oh, and we MIGHT get an offensive rebound every once in a while. Maybe. Just a thought.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Northwestern can clearly be a midpack basketball team in the Big Ten. Carmody already proved that, with lousy facilities and his own dull personality impairing his recruiting. One year after Carmody established that we could hold our own in the league for 4 years in a row, with 4 straight NIT appearances, our NCAA bubble team got decimated by injuries and they fired the coach. They replaced him with a guy who had never been the head coach at any level. Collins made an immediate splash recruiting and thats great, but the year after the NCAA team, things fell apart so horribly and inexplicably that any reasonable fan would question the coach's ability to coach his team. Not recruit them - coach them. (I thought Gato's diversion into authoritarian regimes was interesting, but where you really find unquestioning loyalty is in a cult).

Regarding this bizarre notion that Ryan Young and Pete Nance cannot occupy the court at the same time... it has no reasonable grounding in reality.

Nance and Young should play 20 minutes together. Nance should play an additional 10 minutes with a smaller, faster lineup. Young should play 10 minutes with Beran. Better results would follow.

Thats 30 for Young and 30 for Nance. If you want 32 minutes for Nance and 28 for Young, thats fine, but Collins has to put his best players out there together.

Collins needs to figure out if Williams can play with Nance or Young or both or neither. Williams is a good alternative to Beran - different type of player.

 

[Sec_112]

I've broken it down in another thread where I think it's reasonable to believe they will come from. And the reasonable number was actually 11. 9 for me is more of a minimum acceptable. The one thing that can derail that is Nance getting hurt.

So the prediction was based on an expectation that Audige would play. And you think this is the same team with or without Audige? You might want to look at Berry's first five games against the crap we played this year. I'll even throw out the Providence game.

Then take a peek the first five B10 games for Audige last year.

For a team that has a slim margin for error, Audige makes a difference.

And the two are not comparable on defense.

Hopefully, we don't find out if Audige makes a difference.

 

[GatoLouco]

So the prediction was based on an expectation that Audige would play. And you think this is the same team with or without Audige? You might want to look at Berry's first five games against the crap we played this year. I'll even throw out the Providence game.

Then take a peek the first five B10 games for Audige last year.

For a team that has a slim margin for error, Audige makes a difference.

And the two are not comparable on defense.

Hopefully, we don't find out if Audige makes a difference.

I think Audige can help. But also think without him we are still a 9 win minimum team. The breakdown is there for you to see:
-3 upsets out of 10 against the top 6 teams.
-1 against IU/WI/RU/UNL at home
-Sweep MN and PSU

Audige does not change, for me, the 9 wins minimum and 11 wins reasonable. We won 6 last year and we were not playing twice against the likes of Penn State or MN. Who are significantly worse this year. It's not that impressive to get 3 more wins. It's a minumum

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I think Audige can help. But also think without him we are still a 9 win minimum team. The breakdown is there for you to see:
-3 upsets out of 10 against the top 6 teams.
-1 against IU/WI/RU/UNL at home
-Sweep MN and PSU

Audige does not change, for me, the 9 wins minimum and 11 wins reasonable. We won 6 last year and we were not playing twice against the likes of Penn State or MN. Who are significantly worse this year. It's not that impressive to get 3 more wins. It's a minumum

So, NU pulls 3 major upsets, wins every game they are favored in and even a few that they won’t be favored in like IU and Wisconsin and never suffers an upset either. If you truly believe this you should take $2K and put it on the moneyline at $100 a game. You will make enough to get a season ticket next year.

 

[GatoLouco]

So, NU pulls 3 major upsets, wins every game they are favored in and even a few that they won’t be favored in like IU and Wisconsin and never suffers an upset either. If you truly believe this you should take $2K and put it on the moneyline at $100 a game. You will make enough to get a season ticket next year.

That's a complete misrepresentation of what you saw, hard to take you words seriously when you do that:

1) 3 upsets out of 10 against the major teams is not that much. Last year we won against MI State, Maryland and Ohio State. Same number I have for this year. Calling it "MAJOR UPSETS" does not make your case better. IL, Maryland, Ohio State, all have had major upsets, or very very close to it. And we can't upset 3 out of 10? Again, like we did last year.

2) IU and WI, both home games. We won at IU and basically gave away the game at home. WI is not nearly as good as last year and it's not reasonable to beat them at home? I do have us losing to IA as we play away

3) Never suffers an upset? I have us losing to Nebraska once. If we can't win a couple of games on the road, whether it is, like I laid out against Minnesota or Penn State, or against someone else, we are pretty terrible. We won at IN last year and that was not a game we were favored.

I don't see this as optimistic. I see it as realistic. 11 wins is realistic. 9 wins is pessimistic while still being considered acceptable.

Talk all you want about winning at NU, how hard it is, bla, bla, bla. None of what I said has to do with that. It has to do with this season, with this group of players. A decent coach, mind you not even a great one, wins at least 9 games with this team this year.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

That's a complete misrepresentation of what you saw, hard to take you words seriously when you do that:

1) 3 upsets out of 10 against the major teams is not that much. Last year we won against MI State, Maryland and Ohio State. Same number I have for this year. Calling it "MAJOR UPSETS" does not make your case better. IL, Maryland, Ohio State, all have had major upsets, or very very close to it. And we can't upset 3 out of 10? Again, like we did last year.

2) IU and WI, both home games. We won at IU and basically gave away the game at home. WI is not nearly as good as last year and it's not reasonable to beat them at home? I do have us losing to IA as we play away

3) Never suffers an upset? I have us losing to Nebraska once. If we can't win a couple of games on the road, whether it is, like I laid out against Minnesota or Penn State, or against someone else, we are pretty terrible. We won at IN last year and that was not a game we were favored.

I don't see this as optimistic. I see it as realistic. 11 wins is realistic. 9 wins is pessimistic while still being considered acceptable.

Talk all you want about winning at NU, how hard it is, bla, bla, bla. None of what I said has to do with that. It has to do with this season, with this group of players. A decent coach, mind you not even a great one, wins at least 9 games with this team this year.

Indiana is way better than last year. Yes, we can win that game because if there is any game I expect the team to be fired up for its Indiana. Wisconsin we will see, look worse on paper, but are 5-1. If you think beating IL or OSU is not a major upset I can’t help you. I actually don’t have a problem with 3 upsets in your analysis. My problem is with the assumption that we win pretty much every toss up on the schedule. Blah Bla Blah.

I am actually encouraged by what I have seen. Nance has stepped up, Boo is playing well despite the nonsense from this board. Berry and Greer don’t look like the same guys as last year. The freshman can contribute defensively, an area that was sorely missing last year. Young is steady as it gets. However, I am equally encouraged by what I have seen from the Coaching staff. A marked improvement from last year. Using the zone to protect defensive deficiencies and keep Pete and Young on the court when we need them. Yes, I predicted a worse record than you, but the players have developed and so has the staff. This isn’t like watching the NU football team defense get constantly out schemed by the other staff. The staff has gotten plenty out of the team thus far.

 

[SimpsonElmwood]

So, NU pulls 3 major upsets, wins every game they are favored in and even a few that they won’t be favored in like IU and Wisconsin and never suffers an upset either. If you truly believe this you should take $2K and put it on the moneyline at $100 a game. You will make enough to get a season ticket next year.

KenPom has us 19-12 / 10-10 in conference. We can make it to the tourney (NCAA not NIT)!

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

KenPom has us 19-12 / 10-10 in conference. We can make it to the tourney (NCAA not NIT)!

Yes, if Pete stays healthy and Chase finds a roll that isn’t disruptive to what’s going on. The team has improved way more from last season than I thought possible.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

So the prediction was based on an expectation that Audige would play. And you think this is the same team with or without Audige? You might want to look at Berry's first five games against the crap we played this year. I'll even throw out the Providence game.

Then take a peek the first five B10 games for Audige last year.

For a team that has a slim margin for error, Audige makes a difference.

And the two are not comparable on defense.

Hopefully, we don't find out if Audige makes a difference.

As you suggested, I took a look at Audige in the first 5 Big Ten games last year.

Michigan State. We won 79-65. Audige was a net zero (45-45). Everybody else was a net positive.
Indiana. We won 74-67. Audige was a negative 3. (30-33)
Ohio State. We won 71-70. Audige was a negative 10. (50-60)
Iowa. We lost 87-72. Audige was a negative 21. (47-68)
Michigan. We lost 85-66. Audige was a negative 7. (59-66)

Having seen those numbers, I kept going...

It wasn't until our 17th Big Ten game (against Minnesota) that Chase Audige played a game where we outscored our opponent when he was on the court.

For the season Audige had 2 such games. Ryan Greer had 4. Anthony Gaines, Robbie Beran and Pete Nance each had 5. Ty Berry had 6. Boo Buie and Miller Kopp had 7. Ryan Young had 9.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

Please stop with this Nash and Young together. It will likely remain only an occasional thing. If we play them together we really don't have the personnel to spell either one of them (other than each other) Nicholson is not ready to get more than a couple minutes in bigger games and neither is best if they have to go 30 plus minutes which would be required in order to play them together more than a few minutes a game. Any more than that leaves too many holes. And their playing together is likely more a function of matchups.

Nash graduated a while ago.

 

[Sec_112]

As you suggested, I took a look at Audige in the first 5 Big Ten games last year.

Michigan State. We won 79-65. Audige was a net zero (45-45). Everybody else was a net positive.
Indiana. We won 74-67. Audige was a negative 3. (30-33)
Ohio State. We won 71-70. Audige was a negative 10. (50-60)
Iowa. We lost 87-72. Audige was a negative 21. (47-68)
Michigan. We lost 85-66. Audige was a negative 7. (59-66)

Having seen those numbers, I kept going...

It wasn't until our 17th Big Ten game (against Minnesota) that Chase Audige played a game where we outscored our opponent when he was on the court.

For the season Audige had 2 such games. Ryan Greer had 4. Anthony Gaines, Robbie Beran and Pete Nance each had 5. Ty Berry had 6. Boo Buie and Miller Kopp had 7. Ryan Young had 9.

The question wasn't about Audige alone, but let's play your game for a moment.

So Audige leads the team with 17 pts, shooting 66% from the field on the road at IU, and you want me to believe he offers his team no advantage in that game?

I'd ask you to also consider that he had the lowest defensive rating for that game, but I already know the answer. I should believe the transparent and established Basketball Reference stats miss out on some great number of details and mythical intangibles that your mystery stats always have firmly in hand. Got it

You'll excuse me if I don't bother with the rest of your fairy tale.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

The question wasn't about Audige alone, but let's play your game for a moment.

So Audige leads the team with 17 pts, shooting 66% from the field on the road at IU, and you want me to believe he offers his team no advantage in that game?

I'd ask you to also consider that he had the lowest defensive rating for that game, but I already know the answer. I should believe the transparent and established Basketball Reference stats miss out on some great number of details and mythical intangibles that your mystery stats always have firmly in hand. Got it

You'll excuse me if I don't bother with the rest of your fairy tale.

Why do you constantly have such a negative tone?
I simply report the facts, as I did with Audige (at your request, by the way).
My conclusion is that you don't like the facts so you try to denigrate the facts, much like a recent blowhard politician. Another course would be to say "Thank You for that information."

Audige supporters constantly point to a 3 minute stretch of one of 20 games as "proof" of his value.
Basketball is a team game. You must play defense. The team tries to find ways to score points, setting picks, playing off each other to get open shots, if possible. Therefore looking at one player's points scored (alone) is not particularly meaningful. What matters is how the team does.

In that Indiana game, Audige played 3.5 minutes to start, missed two shots and committed two fouls. We were trailing 5-3 and Collins yanked him for the rest of the half. Without Audige, we led 37-28 at halftime. Audige returned to the lineup to start the 2nd half and Indiana went on an 8-0 run to make it 37-36. Collins pulled Audige again. With 12:24 to play, Audige re-entered a tie game (47-47). The teams went back and forth until 3:30 was left and NU led 63-61.

Audige took every shot for NU from there on and scored 11 points, making 4 of 4 free throws and 3 of 3 from the floor.

 

[Sec_112]

Why do you constantly have such a negative tone?
I simply report the facts, as I did with Audige (at your request, by the way).
My conclusion is that you don't like the facts so you try to denigrate the facts, much like a recent blowhard politician. Another course would be to say "Thank You for that information."

Audige supporters constantly point to a 3 minute stretch of one of 20 games as "proof" of his value.
Basketball is a team game. You must play defense. The team tries to find ways to score points, setting picks, playing off each other to get open shots, if possible. Therefore looking at one player's points scored (alone) is not particularly meaningful. What matters is how the team does.

In that Indiana game, Audige played 3.5 minutes to start, missed two shots and committed two fouls. We were trailing 5-3 and Collins yanked him for the rest of the half. Without Audige, we led 37-28 at halftime. Audige returned to the lineup to start the 2nd half and Indiana went on an 8-0 run to make it 37-36. Collins pulled Audige again. With 12:24 to play, Audige re-entered a tie game (47-47). The teams went back and forth until 3:30 was left and NU led 63-61.

Audige took every shot for NU from there on and scored 11 points, making 4 of 4 free throws and 3 of 3 from the floor.

Why? Because you don't "simply report the facts." You usually have an agenda as you did with this thread, and have no problem manipulating whatever your version of the facts are.

In this case, the question was not about Audige alone. It was a comparison of Audige last year to Berry this year. But you ignored that to give your Audige speech.

And now we're going to pretend there is some grand Audige discussion with people who "constantly point" to this game. Another exaggeration.

Don't complain when you also show ABSOLUTELY no respect for established facts - only mystery stats and barometers that you randomly set to establish your sermon of the moment. There's always some line such as the above about picking and choosing or a line to disprove the source EVERY time.

The "thank you for that information" can work both ways.

 

[lunker35]

Can you explain why a 5 star recruit would select NU? You played baseball. If you were a top 50 baseball prospect would you select NU? If the answer is “no”, I bet most of the reasons are similar to why it is difficult to recruit elite studs to NU for basketball. Talent wins 90% of the time. I will never say it is impossible, but I will say it is damn difficult to to win at NU. You may catch lightning in the bottle, but consistent winning?

We’ve had a ton of great talent flow through NU baseball. The one thing holding us back was coaching. Allen was turning the ship and we’ll see what happens now but I think you’ll see some real good baseball going forward. Fun fact but Joe Mauer was going to come here but he got drafted number one overall. Talent has never been our issue and we recruit well nationally. Hoops is the same way or it should be. We have amazing academics (and support), the best facilities, and we play in the B1G. There is no reason that any of our sports should not be on the top of the food chain.

 

[SimpsonElmwood]

We’ve had a ton of great talent flow through NU baseball. The one thing holding us back was coaching. Allen was turning the ship and we’ll see what happens now but I think you’ll see some real good baseball going forward. Fun fact but Joe Mauer was going to come here but he got drafted number one overall. Talent has never been our issue and we recruit well nationally. Hoops is the same way or it should be. We have amazing academics (and support), the best facilities, and we play in the B1G. There is no reason that any of our sports should not be on the top of the food chain.

I always thought baseball was a tough one because of the weather and the scholarship limitation. The school is so damn expensive and aren't team limited to 11.6 scholarships? It would be great to see NU be good at baseball.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Why? Because you don't "simply report the facts." You usually have an agenda as you did with this thread, and have no problem manipulating whatever your version of the facts are.

In this case, the question was not about Audige alone. It was a comparison of Audige last year to Berry this year. But you ignored that to give your Audige speech.

And now we're going to pretend there is some grand Audige discussion with people who "constantly point" to this game. Another exaggeration.

Don't complain when you also show ABSOLUTELY no respect for established facts - only mystery stats and barometers that you randomly set to establish your sermon of the moment. There's always some line such as the above about picking and choosing or a line to disprove the source EVERY time.

The "thank you for that information" can work both ways.

There is no bias in my report on Audige whatsoever.
It is not my fault that his "+/-" was so consistently negative last year.

Those are the facts.

Basketball has a lot of intangibles. The "+/-" numbers reveal who succeeds in a team environment, or in which type of lineup. I have no doubt that Chase Audige could beat Ty Berry in a game of one-on-one. But as part of a team, as of last year, Audige was less effective than Ty Berry. Buie was better. Hopefully Audige improved or can contribute at small forward.

No agenda, just facts.

 

[hdhntr1]

I'm sorry, Lunker. But you've been around here long enough to know better. You're not some Johnny-come-lately who spouts this stuff without context or some endless campaign of the same yammering viewpoints.

At some point, the track record tells you what this truly is. I doubt anyone in the NCAA coaching profession would have disputed hiring Carmody, Collins and yes, even KO at the time. All of them walked in here with good reputations - at worst. And what's been the results?

That's 20+ YEARS! Twenty years of hoping - simply hoping - to make the NIT or reach .500 in conference. Three coaches HOPING to have back-to-back strong seasons. How much lower do the standards have to be? That's not something you can simply brush aside with a new mentality. It's 20+ years of fact.

Yes, it's a loser's mentality, and most of us hate it. I'm with you if you tell me the the psyche needs to totally change, and many use it as an excuse. But this isn't the same NU as 1990. They've actually put some money into the program and operated like an organization that generates the tens of millions that it does.

They've hired coaches on career upswings. And I don't believe for a second that BC, CC and KO walked in here thinking about the history, fan base and challenge to recruit. All of them probably thought they could be better than the NU history and get the program over the hump. All of us know the results.

If there's going to be an objective analysis - and more importantly, a fair and objective evaluation to find the right guy to turn this around, you can't ignore the grade restrictions ... the fan base ... the truth about recruiting ... and much more. Otherwise, you end up with KO. And God only knows how many out here still walk around with scars from the blip of his tenure.

Reality is that if CCC was facing the same BIG as BC was, there would have been more success. But the BIG has gotten much stronger so even though he has elevated recruiting, our opponents have as well so that where the talent he has brought in might have been above the midpoint of talent in BIG in past, it is now still bottom 3rd.

 

[hdhntr1]

I always thought baseball was a tough one because of the weather and the scholarship limitation. The school is so damn expensive and aren't team limited to 11.6 scholarships? It would be great to see NU be good at baseball.

Problem is that NU likely does not even use the 11.6 scholarships available because of title 9 so hard to compete with programs that do and are cheaper

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Reality is that if CCC was facing the same BIG as BC was, there would have been more success. But the BIG has gotten much stronger so even though he has elevated recruiting, our opponents have as well so that where the talent he has brought in might have been above the midpoint of talent in BIG in past, it is now still bottom 3rd.

Its a pointless argument.
Some, like me, argue that there is plenty of talent. Mid league or better.
Some, like you, argue the talent is bad. Bottom third.

Tends to break along lines of how you feel about the coach's strengths and weaknesses.

I think the coach has recruited pretty good players the last few years and hasn't been able to win games despite the talent. You presumably think we can't win because the coach hasn't been able to recruit talented players, then go one step further and blame the university for that.

I am more loyal to the university and the players.

 

[NUCat320]

We’ve had a ton of great talent flow through NU baseball. The one thing holding us back was coaching. Allen was turning the ship and we’ll see what happens now but I think you’ll see some real good baseball going forward. Fun fact but Joe Mauer was going to come here but he got drafted number one overall. Talent has never been our issue and we recruit well nationally. Hoops is the same way or it should be. We have amazing academics (and support), the best facilities, and we play in the B1G. There is no reason that any of our sports should not be on the top of the food chain.

Joe Mauer had signed an NLI to play football at FSU.

 

[hdhntr1]

We are close to breaking through. This was one of the toughest jobs in the country, a place no one wanted to coach.

Look back before KON - Bill Foster took Duke from a .500 team to three consecutive 20-win seasons. He was 54-141 at Northwestern and won 13 Big Ten games in 7 seasons. Couple of those wins were against a scandal-ridden Minnesota team, so he really only won 11 B1G games. The most frequent image I recall from those years is Foster calling time out to attempt to stop a ridiculous run by the opponent.

The next coach was Byrdsong, who was a very nice man but was not a good coach. He had one winning season out of five at Detroit Mercy, his only other HC job. When they did the search for Byrd, no one wanted the job. In addition, there was point shaving, walk on the wild side, etc.

We all know what happened during the KON area.

The Carmody years used an offensive system and demonstrated that NU could be a competitive team. It's akin to the run and shoot or triple option in football, where a disciplined system allows a team to punch above its weight.

Collins, to his credit, is trying to break through a conventional approach. He's trying to recruit top talent and without a gimmicky offensive scheme. Now he has the facilities to complement the academics. This is why this year is so important. I'd be really bummed if there was no progress and he gets canned. There's a learning curve around recruiting and admissions, so a new staff would take a year or two to figure that out, then a year or two to develop the players. We'd be looking at 2026 and that's a long time from now.

Only a year or two???? Takes longer than that

 

[hdhntr1]

You're pointing out my main beef with CCC. He's way too much like BC - doesn't realize that rebounding is legal, and it even helps teams wins basketball games; and he recruits post players the same way Fitz does the OL - only if somebody puts a gun to his head. Why do we only have three total post players on the whole team? Just maybe if we had one or two more instead of 27 wings on the roster, Nance could play his natural position, and he and Young could play at the same time. Oh, and we MIGHT get an offensive rebound every once in a while. Maybe. Just a thought.

The games are 40 or more minutes. And you have to field a team that can play at least close for that period of time. Recruiting here is harder than just about anywhere so it is harder to put together a team. This year at least he has depth which has been a problem over the years. It isn't that he does not appreciate rebounding. Just that the components he has been able to pull together for the current team are not as great at getting that done. (they have been successful at improving rebounding in the past) This is not new for NU. Carmody had the same problems. One of the ways BC teams compensated for it was increases steals with the dobermans of TJ and Hachad) and cutting down turnovers

Again it is not that he does not appreciate rebounding. Just harder to get the pieces to put that kind of team together. We have had issues recruiting the true 4 and without them it is tough. Over the years we have generally been able to get wings (2s and 3s) but the other positions have been tougher

 

[hdhntr1]

You mean NU needs to be a developmental program? YES! PRAISE THE LORD! I don't post a ton, but I've been saying the same the last couple of years. The biggest criticism I have is that NU doesn't seem to have a clear program that it develops towards. Watching the team the last four years, I couldn't really tell you the identity of this program or the way it intends to win basketball games. For a program like NU that has to win by developing its players and win with guys who have grown together over a couple of years in it, that's a problem.

The issue is that is a pretty up and down situation. Once guy does not develop as expected and it wrecks havock on the plan.

 

[hdhntr1]

Is there data to support the argument? Probably not. And it surely does not explain Young having 9 at half time and being benched the entire second half.

Nance is a kid who grew up playing guard. Who still, today, shows he is much more comfortable facing the basket than with his back to the basket. You can see why CC likes him playing 5. You go back to any year of his tenure and you saw, for example, Pardon, over and over again, at the top of the key, often awkwardly waiting for a passing lane, a guy who can't shoot the 3, should be fed in the post more, but is stuck trying to create space, which ultimately he does not because his defender stays inside. Now you have a guy who teams actually have to come out to, creating space, can shoot the three... sounds like heaven. Except you still need to rebound, ideally it would be Nance with 4 guards, if said guards could rebound well, Baylor 2020 style. As they can't, you put Beran out there, which last year was not enough to rebound decently, and, to make things worse, is a stiff on offense who lost his confidence from 3.

So the conclusion is that RY does not fit the threatening 5 on the outside creating space mold, so he does not play as much as he should. It's an offense designed for 5 players comfortable playing facing the basket. One that Villanova or Baylor made very successful. Works with very athletic players, NBA for example is full of them, who rebound well despite not being post players, who are good slashing off the dribble. Players we usually don't have.

But matchups do. Young is not really a great rebounder. So if the opponent puts in a diffent linup, he might not be a great fit

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

The games are 40 or more minutes. And you have to field a team that can play at least close for that period of time. Recruiting here is harder than just about anywhere so it is harder to put together a team. This year at least he has depth which has been a problem over the years. It isn't that he does not appreciate rebounding. Just that the components he has been able to pull together for the current team are not as great at getting that done. (they have been successful at improving rebounding in the past) This is not new for NU. Carmody had the same problems. One of the ways BC teams compensated for it was increases steals with the dobermans of TJ and Hachad) and cutting down turnovers

Again it is not that he does not appreciate rebounding. Just harder to get the pieces to put that kind of team together. We have had issues recruiting the true 4 and without them it is tough. Over the years we have generally been able to get wings (2s and 3s) but the other positions have been tougher

Pete Nance is an excellent 4. Seems like exactly what Collins wants.

 

[lunker35]

Joe Mauer had signed an NLI to play football at FSU.

If Joe Mauer was going to play college baseball it would have been here. That would have required something monumentally bizarre to happen like a major injury but he was 100% sold on NU.

 

[pawildcat_rivals209725]

I love how some people think the coach is always right, despite the evidence!

NU is not an impossible place to win at basketball. You need 8 guys collected over a 3 year period.
The school's reputation (diploma-wise) is better than all but a few Power-5 teams.
The facilities are "okay" not "trash" anymore.
The campus is better than most.
Evanston is better than most.
Admittedly, winter quarter can shock kids who have never seen snow.

We should be seeing results. I'm confidently hoping that we'll put the the last couple of years behind us and never go back there.

It is true that fan support is awful, especially from the students... but they'll show up this year when we win a few. NU students don't want to associate with losing. Its weird and sad at the same time. Not a lot of school loyalty.

Student fan support isn't good at most colleges, large or small. My Division II school is lucky to get much more than 500 fans at a game after five straight 20-win or better seasons with a conference championship, conference runner-up and a Division II Sweet 16 appearance in that time frame. Kids now party or stay in the dorms with their electronic gadgets.

 

[lunker35]

If Joe Mauer was going to play college baseball it would have been here. That would have required something monumentally bizarre to happen like a major injury but he was 100% sold on NU.

NUCat I had a senior moment and have always confused these two even though Mauer had a HOF career and the other had a stellar career but not HOF. It was Casey Kotchman not Mauer. I don’t know why I always confuse them.

 

[NUCat320]

NUCat I had a senior moment and have always confused these two even though Mauer had a HOF career and the other had a stellar career but not HOF. It was Casey Kotchman not Mauer. I don’t know why I always confuse them.

I called A-ball for four years, including Kotchman v Mauer in their full-season (and my own) professional debuts in April 2002.

That Angels team had at least five big leaguers — Mathis, Kotchman, Ervin Santana, Steven Shell, Mike Napoli (a backup), Dallas McPherson, Joel Peralta.

Kotchman’s dad was a Rookie League manager for forever in the Angels system.

That Twins team had Joe Mauer and Jason Kubel, and nobody else who did much.

 

[hdhntr1]

I think Audige can help. But also think without him we are still a 9 win minimum team. The breakdown is there for you to see:
-3 upsets out of 10 against the top 6 teams.
-1 against IU/WI/RU/UNL at home
-Sweep MN and PSU

Audige does not change, for me, the 9 wins minimum and 11 wins reasonable. We won 6 last year and we were not playing twice against the likes of Penn State or MN. Who are significantly worse this year. It's not that impressive to get 3 more wins. It's a minumum

Let me ask you. How many times have we won 9 or more regular season BIG games in the last 50 years? I count one. Even 8 is relatively rare. But to be fair, we have only been playing 20 games for a few years. Just saying be careful of suggesting minimums

 

[Styre]

Let me ask you. How many times have we won 9 or more regular season BIG games in the last 50 years? I count one. Even 8 is relatively rare. But to be fair, we have only been playing 20 games for a few years. Just saying be careful of suggesting minimums

We have won 9+ conference games six times in program history and only once since 1933:

1915-16: 9-3
1927-28: 9-3
1930-31: 11-1 (B1G champs)
1931-32: 9-3
1932-33: 10-2 (B1G champs)
2016-17: 10-8

 

[GatoLouco]

Let me ask you. How many times have we won 9 or more regular season BIG games in the last 50 years? I count one. Even 8 is relatively rare. But to be fair, we have only been playing 20 games for a few years. Just saying be careful of suggesting minimums

Really not sure what is the point of asking for something you supposedly know the answer to. Even if, apparently, you don't.

Anyway, questions should be how many times we won 45% of our games to make it equivalent to 9 out of 20. You can look that up yourself. Not relevant. How many times have we had this roster in the 21/22 season? Answer: one and it's good enough to win 9 games in the hands for a competent coach.

 

[ricko6543211]

So the prediction was based on an expectation that Audige would play. And you think this is the same team with or without Audige? You might want to look at Berry's first five games against the crap we played this year. I'll even throw out the Providence game.

Then take a peek the first five B10 games for Audige last year.

For a team that has a slim margin for error, Audige makes a difference.

And the two are not comparable on defense.

Hopefully, we don't find out if Audige makes a difference.

For what it's worth, I'm not that convinced that Audige makes our team that much better this year. I don't think he hurts as he is a good on-ball defender with length at a position (3) that we are very young otherwise. But despite him making some high degree of difficulty shots and his ability to create his own shot, from my observation I tend to think our offense does not improve overall with him on the court, because the flow and movement tends to get worse, resulting in lower quality of shots overall. He is better finishing in transition than some of our other guards / wings (Boo and Berry lack size to finish through or over guys chasing down from behind sometimes). The freshmen (Roper and Simmons) have stepped in as worthwhile depth contributors that can defend and make an open shot to space the floor on offense, so while Audige returning gives us more depth I'm not convinced personally that it makes a huge difference in overall team quality.

Btw this is a tangent but Berry has really impressed me on defense this year. His offensive development hasn't been huge as most of his points have come from kick-out 3's, but he has taken his defense to another level. He has 7 steals but I think has drawn a further ~6 offensive fouls, which are almost as good as a steal (it's a turnover, you just don't get the transition opportunity at the other end). He is a much better on-ball defender than Buie, and IMO we should put him on opposing teams' best G scorers instead of Boo when both are in there together. Also lets Boo conserve energy for offense. Audige can take the best wing scorer (slightly taller) when he returns.

 

[hdhntr1]

Really not sure what is the point of asking for something you supposedly know the answer to. Even if, apparently, you don't.

Anyway, questions should be how many times we won 45% of our games to make it equivalent to 9 out of 20. You can look that up yourself. Not relevant. How many times have we had this roster in the 21/22 season? Answer: one and it's good enough to win 9 games in the hands for a competent coach.

But you don't seem to recognize it. Now with your 45% threshold, I think you might get it up to twice with Carmody's 8-8 in an extremely weak BIG in 2003/4. BC's 8-10 finishes fall just short) The point is that you are basically demanding, as a minimum, something that has not been able to be done here.

Hopefully this is a year that we can but we have very, very little margin for error. One ill timed injury or illness or a host of other things can derail everything. CCC has been able to bring in more talent than we have had in the past but the rest of the BIG has too. I want to see it too and I think we have a better chance than we have had in a while, but I am just saying I see it as hard to put it as a minimum

 

[Sec_112]

For what it's worth, I'm not that convinced that Audige makes our team that much better this year. I don't think he hurts as he is a good on-ball defender with length at a position (3) that we are very young otherwise. But despite him making some high degree of difficulty shots and his ability to create his own shot, from my observation I tend to think our offense does not improve overall with him on the court, because the flow and movement tends to get worse, resulting in lower quality of shots overall. He is better finishing in transition than some of our other guards / wings (Boo and Berry lack size to finish through or over guys chasing down from behind sometimes). The freshmen (Roper and Simmons) have stepped in as worthwhile depth contributors that can defend and make an open shot to space the floor on offense, so while Audige returning gives us more depth I'm not convinced personally that it makes a huge difference in overall team quality.

Btw this is a tangent but Berry has really impressed me on defense this year. His offensive development hasn't been huge as most of his points have come from kick-out 3's, but he has taken his defense to another level. He has 7 steals but I think has drawn a further ~6 offensive fouls, which are almost as good as a steal (it's a turnover, you just don't get the transition opportunity at the other end). He is a much better on-ball defender than Buie, and IMO we should put him on opposing teams' best G scorers instead of Boo when both are in there together. Also lets Boo conserve energy for offense. Audige can take the best wing scorer (slightly taller) when he returns.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I agree with most everything you said

The main difference is that I haven't been as impressed with Berry's defense. But you're making me think I need to look more closely at this. I'm thinking Audige's defense is far above any guard we've seen so far. He's someone who can limit a top-flight B10 guard/wing. But I'll reconsider whether Berry can fill that. Simmons maybe also, but I think he's a half=season+ away from that.

As for Buie ... I'm a better defender than Boo.