Aetna CEO, Obamacare is in a "death spiral"

moe

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May 29, 2001
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This is exactly why the GOP should let it implode and then come in as the saviors to fix the system and restore health care to Americans. Let the American people see the fruits of the Dem's legislative labors. The death won't take much longer.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...amacare-in-a-death-spiral-with-sick-customers

“Marketplace premium increases had little if any impact on marketplace sign-ups, providing strong evidence against claims that these increases would send the individual market into a death spiral,” he wrote in an analysis published Feb. 8 on the Brookings website.
 

WVUCOOPER

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WVPATX

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“Marketplace premium increases had little if any impact on marketplace sign-ups, providing strong evidence against claims that these increases would send the individual market into a death spiral,” he wrote in an analysis published Feb. 8 on the Brookings website.

Nice try. The risk pools are out of control. The young and healthy are not signing up. The IRS just stated they will process returns this year even if the young don't sign up as required by law. The pools have far too many sick people requiring expensive, long term treatment. And as premiums rise, as they must to cover the poor pools, more and more healthy people will simply drop out.


Aetna Inc. Chief Executive Officer Mark Bertolini escalated his criticism of the Affordable Care Act, saying Obamacare’s markets are nearing failure as premiums climb and healthier individuals drop out.

“It is in a death spiral,” Bertolini said in a video interview with the Wall Street Journal that aired Wednesday on the newspaper’s website. He predicted that more insurers will drop out of the market for 2018, following Humana Inc.’s decision to quit Obamacare entirely for next year.

Aetna, too, is mulling whether to further reduce its presence in the markets set up by the ACA. The company cut its footprint to four states for this year, from 15, after losing about $450 million on sales of ACA plans last year.

Bertolini has been saying for months that the ACA’s markets are deteriorating. In October, he said that rising rates would push healthy people away from Obamacare, leaving insurers with sicker customers, and forcing premiums even higher. The increasing burden of medical costs as fewer and fewer healthy customers enroll are among the conditions that create an insurance death spiral.
 

atlkvb

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Why are you not open to the possibility that Humana does not plan to pull out of the Obamacare Insurance Exchanges. Have an open mind.

I do Op2 but they don't have to.

They have actuarial tables and financial analysts who can objectively look at the "evidence" which tells them they're going bankrupt staying in it. (ACA)

No "belief" is needed Op2. Only the facts and raw data that this Law is a disaster for them and many others.

Not exactly turning out as was promised by our great "Messiah".
 
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WVPATX

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Jan 27, 2005
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Hopefully a bunch of Americans die and get maimed in the process!! GOP!! GOP!! GOP!!

Obamacare is your monstrosity. You (the Dems) own it. You passed it without a single GOP vote. Obama famously said, "I won, you lost." And when they get the 60th Senator (Arlen Specter), they didn't need to cooperate with the GOP and they didn't. Then Kennedy died. Scott Brown elected. And the Dems resort to reconciliation.

Incredibly stupid of Obama and the Dems. No bail outs. Let the American people feel the full experience of Dem policies.
 

moe

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Let the American people feel the full experience of Dem policies.
Many love it and the Repubs need a replacement or they're just going to leave up to 20 million without coverage.
 

WVPATX

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Jan 27, 2005
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Why are you not open to the possibility that Humana does not plan to pull out of the Obamacare Insurance Exchanges. Have an open mind.

As the Aetna CEO said, the risk pools are killing Obamacare. The young and healthy staying away leaving only the sick. Premiums must rise. As they rise, more healthy people opt out. Premiums rise again. It will collapse, only a matter of time.

As Margaret Thatcher once said, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." In this case, the money of the young and healthy.
 

WVUCOOPER

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Dec 10, 2002
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Obamacare is your monstrosity. You (the Dems) own it. You passed it without a single GOP vote. Obama famously said, "I won, you lost." And when they get the 60th Senator (Arlen Specter), they didn't need to cooperate with the GOP and they didn't. Then Kennedy died. Scott Brown elected. And the Dems resort to reconciliation.

Incredibly stupid of Obama and the Dems. No bail outs. Let the American people feel the full experience of Dem policies.
Not a Dem. Don't like ObamaCare. I still think the current congress and WH were elected to fix the problems, I don't think the electorate needs more proof. It's called leadership. Luckily, most of the elected are smarter than you and realize this.
 

PriddyBoy

Junior
May 29, 2001
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Many love it and the Repubs need a replacement or they're just going to leave up to 20 million without coverage.
You're making a good case for leaving it alone. Look who I'm talking to. Never mind.
 
Dec 17, 2007
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I do Op2 but they don't have to.

They have actuarial tables and financial analysts who can objectively look at the "evidence" which tells them they're going bankrupt staying in it. (ACA)

No "belief" is needed Op2. Only the facts and raw data that this Law is a disaster for them and many others.

Not exactly turning out as was promised by our great "Messiah".
I don't have enough specific knowledge about the insurance industry, but wouldn't a plan (ACA or something else) that utilized an open market RFP for coverage have been a better idea? I mean, every business that offers insurance does it, taking bids.

Then let the exchange offer the plans for the winning bidder to the marketplace, those without insurance. That way the only government intervention is the RFP and the exchange, the market drives the rest.
 

atlkvb

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Many love it and the Repubs need a replacement or they're just going to leave up to 20 million without coverage.

So if they weren't "forced" or "fined" to stay in it moe, they'd keep it?
 

op2

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Mar 16, 2014
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As the Aetna CEO said, the risk pools are killing Obamacare. The young and healthy staying away leaving only the sick. Premiums must rise. As they rise, more healthy people opt out. Premiums rise again. It will collapse, only a matter of time.

As Margaret Thatcher once said, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." In this case, the money of the young and healthy.

Why are you not open to the possibility that risk pools are not killing Obamacare? Have an open mind.

I can understand young and healthy people opting out because they don't want to pay but if they come down with a serious illness guess who pays. Everybody else pays. I don't know what would be the best health care system but I know that the larger problem is that nobody wants to pay in more than they take out and yet somebody has to pay in more than they take out otherwise most people that get cancer or some other serious illness are going to die because they won't be able to pay. The only way insurance works is if someone pays without getting much back.
 

atlkvb

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I don't have enough specific knowledge about the insurance industry, but wouldn't a plan (ACA or something else) that utilized an open market RFP for coverage have been a better idea? I mean, every business that offers insurance does it, taking bids.

Then let the exchange offer the plans for the winning bidder to the marketplace, those without insurance. That way the only government intervention is the RFP and the exchange, the market drives the rest.

the insurance companies were granted virtual monopolies in these exchanges, and virtually guaranteed paying customers.

They still couldn't make it work even with those advantages...not to mention paid subsidies for premium holders!

It's a turkey that was oven ready baked before it was even offered for consumption.
 

atlkvb

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Why are you not open to the possibility that risk pools are not killing Obamacare? Have an open mind.

I can understand young and healthy people opting out because they don't want to pay but if they come down with a serious illness guess who pays. Everybody else pays. I don't know what would be the best health care system but I know that the larger problem is that nobody wants to pay in more than they take out and yet somebody has to pay in more than they take out otherwise most people that get cancer or some other serious illness are going to die because they won't be able to pay. The only way insurance works is if someone pays without getting much back.

Once again Op2, you demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of basic economics.

Insurance companies do not exist to pay out more claims than they they collect in premiums. Insurance companies like most businesses, evaluate their risk, and spread it out across their financial portfolios.

They exist to turn profits, selling a product "Insurance" that protects policy holder's risks against unexpected financial loss.

Insurance companies both manage and evaluate their exposure to risk to protect their profitability. When their risk exceeds their ability to generate profits (which they also manage in order to pay shareholders and operational expenses as well as claims) they either go out of business or stop selling those Insurance policies to eliminate that risk or exposure to their bottom line.
 

Mntneer

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Oct 7, 2001
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I don't have enough specific knowledge about the insurance industry, but wouldn't a plan (ACA or something else) that utilized an open market RFP for coverage have been a better idea? I mean, every business that offers insurance does it, taking bids.

Then let the exchange offer the plans for the winning bidder to the marketplace, those without insurance. That way the only government intervention is the RFP and the exchange, the market drives the rest.

What needs to be tackled are actual medical costs, not insurance costs.

Hell, get radical, eliminate health plans as a whole. Create a catastrophic plan system and combine with HSA's.
 

WVPATX

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Jan 27, 2005
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Not a Dem. Don't like ObamaCare. I still think the current congress and WH were elected to fix the problems, I don't think the electorate needs more proof. It's called leadership. Luckily, most of the elected are smarter than you and realize this.

You misread or misunderstood my post (and you claim I lack intelligence, lol). Many in the GOP want to wait for Obamacare to implode. This doesn't mean people will lose their health care. It means they will get to the point where they see just how bad it has become and the GOP can then do what it needs to do with the support of the American people.

The GOP can then pass legislation to provide health care for the sick, those being subsidized today. They can enact other legislation to increase competition, provide for health savings accounts, eliminate the mandate and try and bring down costs. They will have the support of the American people. This is not some far out strategy, it is very mainstream among many in the GOP.

Association of American Physicians and Surgeons:

http://aapsonline.org/white-paper-repealreplacement-affordable-care-act/
 

op2

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Once again Op2, you demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of basic economics.

Insurance companies do not exist to pay out more claims than they they collect in premiums. Insurance companies like most businesses, evaluate their risk, and spread it out across their financial portfolios.

They exist to turn profits, selling a product "Insurance" that protects policy holder's risks against unexpected financial loss.

Insurance companies both manage and evaluate their exposure to risk to protect their profitability. When their risk exceeds their ability to generate profits (which they also manage in order to pay shareholders and operational expenses as well as claims) they either go out of business or stop selling those Insurance policies to eliminate that risk or exposure to their bottom line.

I wasn't talking about the insurance companies, I was talking about the people that pay into them. Nobody wants to pay into them more than they get out but insurance can't work if nobody pays in more than they get out. Young, healthy people are opting out and yet some of them are going to get sick and you and I are going to pay for them because they opted out.
 

WVPATX

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Jan 27, 2005
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Many love it and the Repubs need a replacement or they're just going to leave up to 20 million without coverage.

Wrong again. It must get tiresome being so wrong, so often.

It dies. The GOP rushes in, provides coverage for those getting subsidies, eliminates mandates, encourages competition, enables health savings accounts, enables patients and doctors to make decisions, etc.

No one loses healthcare. They simply get to see first hand how awful Obamacare was and the Dems own it.
 

op2

Senior
Mar 16, 2014
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Wrong again. It must get tiresome being so wrong, so often.

It dies. The GOP rushes in, provides coverage for those getting subsidies, eliminates mandates, encourages competition, enables health savings accounts, enables patients and doctors to make decisions, etc.

No one loses healthcare. They simply get to see first hand how awful Obamacare was and the Dems own it.

The people that opt out of Obamacare because they can't afford it don't have health insurance. If your death spiral comes true then more and more are opting out and have no insurance. (Which means when they get sick you and I pay.)
 

atlkvb

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I wasn't talking about the insurance companies, I was talking about the people that pay into them. Nobody wants to pay into them more than they get out but insurance can't work if nobody pays in more than they get out. Young, healthy people are opting out and yet some of them are going to get sick and you and I are going to pay for them because they opted out.

Fair enough. but it's the Insurance companies who are pulling out of the exchanges for the very reasons I mentioned.

Policy holders have no choice, they're being forced to participate. The Insurance companies don't have to write the policies because they can't make money on them (which is the reason for writing them) but the problem is how the Law is constructed, not the Insurance companies or the policyholders who just want coverage they can afford.
 

moe

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May 29, 2001
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Wrong again. It must get tiresome being so wrong, so often.

It dies. The GOP rushes in, provides coverage for those getting subsidies, eliminates mandates, encourages competition, enables health savings accounts, enables patients and doctors to make decisions, etc.

No one loses healthcare. They simply get to see first hand how awful Obamacare was and the Dems own it.
Yeah right. Stick to watching cartoons, your grasp of the real world is not good.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
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Why are you not open to the possibility that risk pools are not killing Obamacare? Have an open mind.

I can understand young and healthy people opting out because they don't want to pay but if they come down with a serious illness guess who pays. Everybody else pays. I don't know what would be the best health care system but I know that the larger problem is that nobody wants to pay in more than they take out and yet somebody has to pay in more than they take out otherwise most people that get cancer or some other serious illness are going to die because they won't be able to pay. The only way insurance works is if someone pays without getting much back.

My God OP, the CEO's of these companies know one heck of a lot more the risk pools than you or me. But anyone can see the risk pools are death. The pools need lot of healthy people that don't use health care to pay premiums to subsidize those that use it a lot. Thus the MANDATE. And the CEO's say, they have to continually raise premiums to cover their losses because of the poor risk pools. It will further drive out the young and healthy.

There are many other options rather than government running large parts of the system.
 

WVPATX

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Jan 27, 2005
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The people that opt out of Obamacare because they can't afford it don't have health insurance. If your death spiral comes true then more and more are opting out and have no insurance. (Which means when they get sick you and I pay.)

Or the young person pays, right? Let them have catastrophic coverage in case they get really, really ill. My daughter paid for her own doctor's visits. Her Obamacare premiums were simply unaffordable to her.

Until we start addressing the real issue, health care costs, nothing will work. We must bring down costs, encourage more competition, provide HSA's, etc.
 

WVPATX

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Yeah right. Stick to watching cartoons, your grasp of the real world is not good.

It's so interesting to me that people like you loved Obamacare and now when I suggest leaving it alone, you object, lmao. So you are now admitting it is not working. Wow. Big change for you and other libs.
 

mneilmont

Sophomore
Jan 23, 2008
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Many love it and the Repubs need a replacement or they're just going to leave up to 20 million without coverage.
Is that not where Obamacare found them? Obamacare threw them an anchor. It blindly left the entire industry worse off than what they found and "fixed". Remember what a wise man told us about "not the cure, but the problem". Government was never intended to be the cure all for humanity. It just seems some Dems are slow learners or hell bent on being drones on their fellow man.
 

op2

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Mar 16, 2014
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Or the young person pays, right? Let them have catastrophic coverage in case they get really, really ill. My daughter paid for her own doctor's visits. Her Obamacare premiums were simply unaffordable to her.

Until we start addressing the real issue, health care costs, nothing will work. We must bring down costs, encourage more competition, provide HSA's, etc.

What do you mean let them have catastrophic coverage? They don't want to pay for coverage because they don't think they're going to get sick. They think you're being a fascist if you make them buy coverage they don't want even though everybody knows that if they get catastrophically sick everyone else will pay.
 

moe

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It's so interesting to me that people like you loved Obamacare and now when I suggest leaving it alone, you object, lmao. So you are now admitting it is not working. Wow. Big change for you and other libs.
No one cares what you suggest, I'm more interested in what's happening in the real world. It won't be left alone and Trump is trying to defund it though he can't dismantle it too quickly without leaving millions w/o coverage which is why the dismantle/replace plan is being pushed back as they really don't have consensus on how to proceed. Campaign talk is easier than "fixing" something.
 

mneilmont

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Jan 23, 2008
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Once again Op2, you demonstrate your complete lack of understanding of basic economics.

Insurance companies do not exist to pay out more claims than they they collect in premiums. Insurance companies like most businesses, evaluate their risk, and spread it out across their financial portfolios.

They exist to turn profits, selling a product "Insurance" that protects policy holder's risks against unexpected financial loss.

Insurance companies both manage and evaluate their exposure to risk to protect their profitability. When their risk exceeds their ability to generate profits (which they also manage in order to pay shareholders and operational expenses as well as claims) they either go out of business or stop selling those Insurance policies to eliminate that risk or exposure to their bottom line.
This wise philosophy should not be intended for insurance companies only. The entire capitalism system is so ordered. Most who engage go bust. The few who survive are going to turn a profit. Realistic people do not see profit as a problem. Socialistic systems cannot survive in the long run.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
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What do you mean let them have catastrophic coverage? They don't want to pay for coverage because they don't think they're going to get sick. They think you're being a fascist if you make them buy coverage they don't want even though everybody knows that if they get catastrophically sick everyone else will pay.

OP you have no idea what you are talking about. I am saying make catastrophic coverage available to them, not force them to buy it. Catastrophic coverage has been around a long, long time. Young people like it because the premiums are quite low and if they get really sick, they have coverage and we don't end up paying for their coverage. Very simple.
 

atlkvb

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This wise philosophy should not be intended for insurance companies only. The entire capitalism system is so ordered. Most who engage go bust. The few who survive are going to turn a profit. Realistic people do not see profit as a problem. Socialistic systems cannot survive in the long run.

Try explaining that to Op2.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
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No one cares what you suggest, I'm more interested in what's happening in the real world. It won't be left alone and Trump is trying to defund it though he can't dismantle it too quickly without leaving millions w/o coverage which is why the dismantle/replace plan is being pushed back as they really don't have consensus on how to proceed. Campaign talk is easier than "fixing" something.

Nice try. You just admitted you and other libs were terribly wrong. It is a failure and now you want it bailed out.

If it was so great as all you libs claimed, why does it need "fixed'?
 

op2

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Mar 16, 2014
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OP you have no idea what you are talking about. I am saying make catastrophic coverage available to them, not force them to buy it. Catastrophic coverage has been around a long, long time. Young people like it because the premiums are quite low and if they get really sick, they have coverage and we don't end up paying for their coverage. Very simple.

Nobody wants to buy something they don't think they are going to use.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
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Nobody wants to buy something they don't think they are going to use.

OP, catastrophic coverage was very popular. Just amazing how little you seem to know about health care insurance.
 

atlkvb

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OP, catastrophic coverage was very popular. Just amazing how little you seem to know about health care insurance.

And economics in general. Amazingly uninformed about basic concepts.
 

WVPATX

Freshman
Jan 27, 2005
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Maybe to brush up I need to read the Bible more.

You and I may have had this discussion before, but I believe it takes more faith for an atheist than someone that believes in God. Take a moment to read my post above in this thread about the creation of the universe.

It happened in one of two ways, either by accident or by design. Read about the delicate balance of the universe and the fact that if any universal constants were off just a hair, the universe could not exist or sustain life. To believe a single explosion (The Big Bang) resulted in such a finely balanced universe is virtually mathematically impossible (thus the multi universe theory). Thus, for you to believe it all happened by accident is an article of great faith.