https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/la...court-appeal-london-liverpool-campaign-judges
What are your thoughts?
What are your thoughts?
Alfie Evans Saga
- Thread starter Bluemantoo
- Start date
Parents should be allowed to take the child elsewhere if doctors want to treat
Socialized medicine sucks. Socialist anything sucks.
This is what happens when you let government ration care
We need to vote in more leftists so we can have the government tell us what to think, what we can and can't say or do, and when our children must die.
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I am more bothered by the Brit getting 8 months for flipping off a police camera.
Heartbreaking and infuriating. Amazing that so many in America opine for government run healthcare and other failed lynchpins of socialism. Socialism, communism and all the other "-isms" have been abject failures wherever they've been tried for time immemorial, yet those who are "woke" somehow think America can finally get it right. The absolute craven and cold-hearted attitude of the judges in this case is downright scary.
Is it moral for a society to spend millions of limited dollars to extend a life that won’t improve (same for end of life care in this country) when there so many that can’t afford basic care. It’s one of many serious questions this country needs to face if it’s ever going to improve health care costs.
I'm OK with that "-ism" ☺ I was referencing forms of government and not economic systems, though. However, I do recognize that these systems overlap to varying degrees in all forms of governence.
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Is it the governments business if you want to take your child to another country for care? Should they tell ppl who gets what liberty?
Sigh...
I'll bite.
Healthcare is a good. A commodity. It is something to be exchanged in a market. When demand is high relative to supply prices will be high and quantity will be low. You can touch with the market all day by trying to make prices lower, but until you successfully increase supply you accomplish jack ****. Or maybe you have to figure out how to pump the brakes on demand, but to Hell with that, FREE and COPIOUS are birthrights when it comes to the time and efforts of other people.
With all due respect, there is so much propaganda and dogma in this thread.
When you get older and need more healthcare you will likely take a different view.
Though I have almost never needed medical attention in my life, a few months ago I was taken to the emergency room of one of the top hospitals in Atlanta.
I was kept four days.
My bill was $50k+.
Though I gave the hospital my insurance credentials upon admittance, my insurance would not cover my costs because this hospital was "out of network."
When you get older and need more healthcare you will likely take a different view.
Though I have almost never needed medical attention in my life, a few months ago I was taken to the emergency room of one of the top hospitals in Atlanta.
I was kept four days.
My bill was $50k+.
Though I gave the hospital my insurance credentials upon admittance, my insurance would not cover my costs because this hospital was "out of network."
So, how much was your life worth?
What if you had a HSA for 25 years and had accumulated a $40,000 balance during the years you used very little care?
What if there were more providers?
There are many potential solutions.
What if you had a HSA for 25 years and had accumulated a $40,000 balance during the years you used very little care?
What if there were more providers?
There are many potential solutions.
This article is spot-on (IMO) about the Evans situation... worth the read if you have time.
https://www.americanthinker.com/art...er_child_sacrifice_on_britains_nhs_altar.html
https://www.americanthinker.com/art...er_child_sacrifice_on_britains_nhs_altar.html
I've often wondered if you should save a life just because you can or if its more humane to just let a life pass to keep it from horrendous suffering. Nevertheless it's an individual choice. The thought of allowing the government enough power to take that choice out of an individuals hands is scary.
good night Alfie. Sorry you lived in a government controlled satist country that refused to even try to save your life. ..l.. England
I had a heart attach 4 years ago and have 2 stents. I haven't seen a doctor since then because the medical bills were so high even with insurance. Living to 90 is NOT goal of mine.
How many people actually read the details of the case before being told what to believe by their partisan news source of choice?
This.
Judging by my facebook feed, this is a right-wing cause.
Might as well bring him over here. The kid might live but his family will go bankrupt trying to pay for the ****.
In all seriousness, I don't have any answers. I lean toward death would probably be better for the kid, but if the parents want to try to save him, let them.
i would gladly go bankrupt to try and save my kid's life.
I'll agree that this is a right-wing cause because the left certainly will not advocate for the sanctity of human life. The party that booed God 3 times at their national convention, fights tooth-and-nail for on-demand abortions (while fighting just as vehemently for some random animal specie's "right to life"), supports euthanasia, and opines for government-run healthcare (where beauracracies decide who lives and dies) certainly will not be found advocating for human life.
Most people would, but it's still f'd that one has to go into finical ruin to live. And this particular kid was gonna have a ****** life regardless it seemed.
My best friend just filed bankruptcy because of some sort of heart surgery for his daughter because he didn't have $240K just lying around. Health care is broken worldwide.
Edit: I went on an assholish rant against this post.
Instead, I'll just say I don't agree with most of what you said and some of the things you view as terrible I view as non-issues (religion and euthanasia) or none of my business since it'll never apply to me and my penis (abortion).
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This incident tugs at my heart because I am a parent who had a child facing death. The doctors could not diagnosis the illness and his organs began to shut down. I was working out of country when I got a call about 2:00 AM to get home immediately. One of the doctors working the case suggested he be transferred to a university research hospital and a doctor stayed in the hospital library all night and found a rare case that had the same symptoms.. They used this case to treat him to a long but complete recovery. Four people had the same symptoms in the state that year and 2 died. Both adults. My son and another child lived. The cause of the illness turned out to be an allergic reaction to of all things, sulfur. He was literally burning up inside and his skin was peeling off.
The incident caused him to want to go into medicine and this has been his career now for about 20 years. I wonder if we would have had the opportunity to change hospitals if we were under socialized medicine. When his organs began to shut down would they just "pull the plug" and save money. Thank God we were not under government controlled health care then and thank God a doctor cared and went the extra mile. He would not have made it without that doctor, that university and God.
The incident caused him to want to go into medicine and this has been his career now for about 20 years. I wonder if we would have had the opportunity to change hospitals if we were under socialized medicine. When his organs began to shut down would they just "pull the plug" and save money. Thank God we were not under government controlled health care then and thank God a doctor cared and went the extra mile. He would not have made it without that doctor, that university and God.
Would you feel the same way if that was your child? What a jackass thing to say.
The kid is as self aware as a stalk of celery. I’d do the merciful thing and move on.
Dude you're sick. Get help.
Wow! That is touching. God bless that Dr & hospital
Take your own advice and move on. This is an adult conversation and there is no need for a Canadian opinion.
The only thing we can do at this point is learn the lesson. Universal health care doesn't reduce costs, it reduces care, universally.
Still, it's interesting that in the entirety of this thread, that there is neither a single post providing an accurate description of Alfie's condition nor illuminating the actual conflict. The Left/Right sends it them through their ideological filter so that can fit it to their cosmic battle between good and evil. And in doing so, the actual important issue which ought to be discussed is missed entirely.
False. The important issue has been discussed. His condition does not matter to the ultimate point. His parents should have been allowed to seek treatment for their child outside the confines of the original hospital. The British doctors wanted him to die to protect the sanctity of their diagnosis or they would have allowed him to go to Italy. They had already been proven wrong when he breathed on his own for several days longer than they promised he would.
[QUOTE="ymmot31, post: 6898485, member: 3184The British doctors wanted him to die to protect the sanctity of their diagnosis or they would have allowed him to go to Italy. They had already been proven wrong when he breathed on his own for several days longer than they promised he would.[/QUOTE]
Nope that's false. In part because there was no diagnosis. From the court documents:
"It is recognised that all the doctors have come to the conclusion that Alfie is suffering from a neurodegenerative disorder. Nobody knows what triggered or caused this devastating erosion of Alfie’s brain, there is no diagnosis and there may never be. The fact remains however that all agreed the degeneration is both catastrophic and untreatable."
Regarding the assessment of Alfie's condition, every doctor, even those outside of Alder Hey agree. Here is Professor Haas stating as such:
“There are numerous excellent statements of the assessment of Alfies condition in the file from many distinguished specialists in the field of paediatrics, paediatric epilepsy, intensive care etc. which I will not copy and discuss again. These specialist are mainly from the distinguished Alder Hey Children's hospital in Liverpool as well from other well known specialist hospitals in the UK and the Vatican (Ospedale Pediatric Bambino Gesu). In summary it is clear - based on my assessment and on these reports - that Alfie suffers from a progressive, very likely ultimately fatal neurodegenerative disorder of so far unknown origin."
Alfie's status was universally understood to be entirely dependent on machines to keep him alive. Even the hospital willing to take the boy in for free recognize the futility of treatment. The boy couldn't swallow, didn't react to auditory or visual stimuli, and was prone to seizures that couldn't be controlled by medication. His progressive neurodegeneration utterly destroyed his thalami and his basal ganglia, degraded a majority of his white matter, and deteriorated a significant portion of his cortex.
Nope that's false. In part because there was no diagnosis. From the court documents:
"It is recognised that all the doctors have come to the conclusion that Alfie is suffering from a neurodegenerative disorder. Nobody knows what triggered or caused this devastating erosion of Alfie’s brain, there is no diagnosis and there may never be. The fact remains however that all agreed the degeneration is both catastrophic and untreatable."
Regarding the assessment of Alfie's condition, every doctor, even those outside of Alder Hey agree. Here is Professor Haas stating as such:
“There are numerous excellent statements of the assessment of Alfies condition in the file from many distinguished specialists in the field of paediatrics, paediatric epilepsy, intensive care etc. which I will not copy and discuss again. These specialist are mainly from the distinguished Alder Hey Children's hospital in Liverpool as well from other well known specialist hospitals in the UK and the Vatican (Ospedale Pediatric Bambino Gesu). In summary it is clear - based on my assessment and on these reports - that Alfie suffers from a progressive, very likely ultimately fatal neurodegenerative disorder of so far unknown origin."
Alfie's status was universally understood to be entirely dependent on machines to keep him alive. Even the hospital willing to take the boy in for free recognize the futility of treatment. The boy couldn't swallow, didn't react to auditory or visual stimuli, and was prone to seizures that couldn't be controlled by medication. His progressive neurodegeneration utterly destroyed his thalami and his basal ganglia, degraded a majority of his white matter, and deteriorated a significant portion of his cortex.