Ammo prices

[KopiKat]

Oh no, no. I wasn’t saying Arsenal was an American brand. My post had 2 separate comments. The first was saying that Arsenal and Zastava (imports) are the upper graded AKs. The 2nd comment was in regards to the American made AKs......PSA, Kalash USA, etc.


Your post is spot on though.

I gotcha. Have heard some improved feedback on Palmetto's new FN barreled version. Comes with the ALG trigger group too, or maybe that's an option that pushes it to the high end of the price range. Have heard the ALG can cause some damage to carrier due to hardness differential. Could be true. But I would expect thatight be combined with excessive recoil / overgassed. Either way, I will wait on some further time to go by before getting warm and fuzzy on PSA. Also not sure is there isn't still some CAI / wasr-10 origin to the new models.

I've been waiting, disappointingly, years for DSA to produce their own line. But I've just about decided that they will never risk threatening their FAL business. Once one side of the bread gets buttered real good. Great company.

 

[jwheat]

How do you have it set up? If you don't mind my asking. And what chambering do you have?

X39. I put a synthetic fixed stock. Painted the fore end black. Currently looking for a good deal on original red wood to put back on it

 

[Blueworld_3.0]

Feel perfectly confident running steel case through my AR (PSA kit BTW) but, I do pay closer attention to keeping it clean.
Right now, if you have very low supply or none...try to find a couple hundred rounds of something. Steel or brass, doesn't matter. Having a firearm is pointless if you cannot actually fire it.
SKS is a less expensive option to a AK, if you can find them. I am upgrading the stock on one I purchased years ago from the old Rose's dept store chain when they still sold rifles. Got it at the time for the princely sum of $102. LOL!

 

[KopiKat]

X39. I put a synthetic fixed stock. Painted the fore end black. Currently looking for a good deal on original red wood to put back on it

I suppose this means you purchased a converted Saiga that somebody had previously installed handguard furniture (wood) and you painted it black to match the either Warsaw pact / NATO length synthetic butt stock you installed? Curious also, how far do your spent casings eject ?

 

[jwheat]

I suppose this means you purchased a converted Saiga that somebody had previously installed handguard furniture (wood) and you painted it black to match the either Warsaw pact / NATO length synthetic butt stock you installed? Curious also, how far do your spent casings eject ?

I haven’t measured Distance but they all seem to go out in the 3 O clock range. I’ve only shot Tulammo plinking but I have some norinco yellow box put up. Haven’t put any of those through it yet

I don’t do a lot of stand still shooting with my AK. A lot of moving around and shooting different targets in different directions

Edit: if it’s not obvious I’m not as up to par on the AK platform as I am the much easier AR. I’m trying to learn though

 

[KopiKat]

I haven’t measured Distance but they all seem to go out in the 3 O clock range. I’ve only shot Tulammo plinking but I have some norinco yellow box put up. Haven’t put any of those through it yet

I don’t do a lot of stand still shooting with my AK. A lot of moving around and shooting different targets in different directions

Edit: if it’s not obvious I’m not as up to par on the AK platform as I am the much easier AR. I’m trying to learn though

Are you using standard AK mags or still using Saiga mags?

 

[jwheat]

Are you using standard AK mags or still using Saiga mags?

Steel mags. I think they are Bulgarian maybe? I don’t use any of the mags that came with it they were polymer trash

 

[KopiKat]

Steel mags. I think they are Bulgarian maybe? I don’t use any of the mags that came with it they were polymer trash

The best polymer mags I have found are made by SMG tactical. Might take a little fitting. As a slight bonus (emphasis, "slight"), the SMG mags will provide a bolt hold open upon last round fired . . . sensation cue for shooter to change mags. Unlike the AR platform, obviously, bolt carrier does not stay locked to the rear when you take the mag out. This is not a big deal as working the action on good AK is more joyous than shooting an impingement AR that will need cleaning after 1 round fired. Also, congrats on the Norinco ammo. I haven't seen any of it in ages.

 

[jwheat]

The best polymer mags I have found are made by SMG tactical. Might take a little fitting. As a slight bonus (emphasis, "slight"), the SMG mags will provide a bolt hold open upon last round fired . . . sensation cue for shooter to change mags. Unlike the AR platform, obviously, bolt carrier does not stay locked to the rear when you take the mag out. This is not a big deal as working the action on good AK is more joyous than shooting an impingement AR that will need cleaning after 1 round fired. Also, congrats on the Norinco ammo. I haven't seen any of it in ages.

found them about three or four months ago on armslist. Met him in BG. Guy didn’t know what he had I gave him .50cpr for 600 rounds of it. I Stopped over at a buddies on the way back home and his neighbor is a (weird af) Eastern European fanatic. He offered me $1 per round right then for all of them. He is also the guy said that my mags were Bulgarian

 

[KopiKat]

found them about three or four months ago on armslist. Met him in BG. Guy didn’t know what he had I gave him .50cpr for 600 rounds of it. I Stopped over at a buddies on the way back home and his neighbor is a (weird af) Eastern European fanatic. He offered me $1 per round right then for all of them. He is also the guy said that my mags were Bulgarian

I have heard of people being willing to pay 30-40$ box for it. And that was years as ago. This is probably the first conversation I've had on Norinco steel core AK / SKS ammo in a 1/2 dozen years. There are a lot of misconceptions about it, but whatever motivates folks to ante up is on them so good.for you.

 

[drawing_dead]

I would like my commie gun to scream communism. 7.62 AR seems wrong.

mash, you would love an AR in 7.62x39. very sweet mid-range between .308 and 5.56 and ammo is very cheap too, just like the commies!

 

[drawing_dead]

Do you have one built in x39? My next build will be something other than 5.56 I just don’t know what yet

i have one in each of 5.56, 7.62, and .308. the .308 is on the AR10 platform; too much power for the small lower. i really like the cheap ammo and it fills a gap between the 5.56 and .308. i have not heard of or experienced any reliability issues with the 7.62. the AR15 small lower has fitments/upper receivers all the way up to .50 Beowolf.

 

[jwheat]

i have one in each of 5.56, 7.62, and .308. the .308 is on the AR10 platform; too much power for the small lower. i really like the cheap ammo and it fills a gap between the 5.56 and .308. i have not heard of or experienced any reliability issues with the 7.62. the AR15 small lower has fitments/upper receivers all the way up to .50 Beowolf.

Is it DI or piston? The one in x39.

 

[jwheat]

I have heard of people being willing to pay 30-40$ box for it. And that was years as ago. This is probably the first conversation I've had on Norinco steel core AK / SKS ammo in a 1/2 dozen years. There are a lot of misconceptions about it, but whatever motivates folks to ante up is on them so good.for you.

I don’t expect them to penetrate steel or even brick but I do expect them to pack a little more punch than my tulammo

 

[drawing_dead]

Is it DI or piston? The one in x39.

got it from Bear Creek
https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/upper-assemblies?spec_caliber=334&spec_platform=442&stock=1

 

[KopiKat]

I don’t expect them to penetrate steel or even brick but I do expect them to pack a little more punch than my tulammo

It will do a number on a variety of materials. Bust up some brick for sure. Maybe even go through a skillet.. Just depends. I'm assuming you know that not all Norinco ammo is steel core. Probably most of it was lead core. I don't recall ever learning a clear distinction regarding packaging, marking, how to reliably know. I have a modest amount on stripper clips that I know is lead core. I just dug it out a few minutes ago. It is stamped "311" and "92". Never saw it in packaging. Got it thrown in many years ago along with some mags as payment from a friend who somehow lost a miter saw he had borrowed. That fkng dumbass. I've never ran any of it either. Heard mixed info in the past about whether corrosive or not.

 

[jwheat]

It will do a number on a variety of materials. Bust up some brick for sure. Maybe even go through a skillet.. Just depends. I'm assuming you know that not all Norinco ammo is steel core. Probably most of it was lead core. I don't recall ever learning a clear distinction regarding packaging, marking, how to reliably know. I have a modest amount on stripper clips that I know is lead core. I just dug it out a few minutes ago. It is stamped "311" and "92". Never saw it in packaging. Got it thrown in many years ago along with some mags as payment from a friend who somehow lost a miter saw he had borrowed. That fkng dumbass. I've never ran any of it either. Heard mixed info in the past about whether corrosive or not.

From everything I’ve read the yellow box is steel core which as you know many people take as meaning armor piercing. It’s marked as non corrosive. That probably doesn’t mean it’s completely non corrosive. I may open a box and send some down range.

 

[KopiKat]

From everything I’ve read the yellow box is steel core which as you know many people take as meaning armor piercing. It’s marked as non corrosive. That probably doesn’t mean it’s completely non corrosive. I may open a box and send some down range.

Well . . . as I mentioned earlier, been a long time since my last discussion. But you are 100% correct in that a lot of people believe that the steel core = AP. This myth drives the value so if you sell it you deserve to get whatever the market will pay. Pro capitalism / Warsaw pact weapons guy here.

 

[mashburned]

Decent price on handgun ammo if you hurry...

https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/winchester-usa-handgun-ammo-bulk-pack

 

[Johns721]

7.62x39 and 5.45x39 are about the only calibers that can be found for anything near a normal price right now. 5.45 is probably going to have a run on it this week or next when Palmetto releases their AK-74 clone, which looks really interesting and will be in my collection. I have thousands of rounds of the 5.45 7N6 spam pack corrosive russian surplus ammo to play with and only one rifle to shoot it out of (a converted Saiga 5.45, which really needs to be a safe queen since there probably won't ever be any more of those imported again). Fully intend to pick up at least one of the Palmetto rifles

The corrosive primer in the 7N6 is annoying AF, but nothing a quick cleaning can't fix. I miss the days when that stuff was 15 cents a round in the 1080 round cases.

Palmetto's quality is really solid, and in the rare event you do get a lemon, the lifetime warranty is handy. I have an AK-V 9mm AK (hands down my favorite "fun" gun), a GF3 that was a "blemished" sale gun (had a scratch about 2mm long on the receiver that apparently qualified as a blem), and will be adding one of the 103's and the 74 soon. The V and the GF3 have at least 1000 rounds though them without a single misfire or issue. If they're good enough for Rob Ski, they're good enough for my collection.

 

[KopiKat]

7.62x39 and 5.45x39 are about the only calibers that can be found for anything near a normal price right now. 5.45 is probably going to have a run on it this week or next when Palmetto releases their AK-74 clone, which looks really interesting and will be in my collection. I have thousands of rounds of the 5.45 7N6 spam pack corrosive russian surplus ammo to play with and only one rifle to shoot it out of (a converted Saiga 5.45, which really needs to be a safe queen since there probably won't ever be any more of those imported again). Fully intend to pick up at least one of the Palmetto rifles

The corrosive primer in the 7N6 is annoying AF, but nothing a quick cleaning can't fix. I miss the days when that stuff was 15 cents a round in the 1080 round cases..

Spam cans . . . dammit I hate those things. AK rules over AR but we kick their *** on ammo can designs.

 

[Johns721]

Spam cans . . . dammit I hate those things. AK rules over AR but we kick their *** on ammo can designs.

True. The ammo was probably cheaper because of the pain in the arse of getting it out of the godforsaken can. I took one of the tools that come with the cans and epoxy'd it into a spare AK pistol grip and made a pretty effective can opener. Dremel still works better, but with the extra grip for leverage, it will make relatively short work of a can of ammo.

 

[jwheat]

https://www.armslist.com/posts/1211...-for-sale--saiga-legion-izhevsk-russia-sgl-31

Unconverted saiga

 

[KopiKat]

https://www.armslist.com/posts/1211...-for-sale--saiga-legion-izhevsk-russia-sgl-31

Unconverted saiga

Umm . . . unconverted ??

 

[jwheat]

Umm . . . unconverted ??

I was under the impression you could change it out to shoot bullets I guess not?

 

[KopiKat]

I was under the impression you could change it out to shoot bullets I guess not?

Change what out?

 

[jwheat]

Change what out?

Idk really I just assumed if you had a saiga you could have a 12g, 308, 223, or x39. That’s the calibers I’ve seen them in. Like I said I know slightly more than nothing about the AK platform.

edit: put your knowledge in me and fill me full of it

 

[KopiKat]

Idk really I just assumed if you had a saiga you could have a 12g, 308, 223, or x39. That’s the calibers I’ve seen them in. Like I said I know slightly more than nothing about the AK platform.

edit: put your knowledge in me and fill me full of it

I get you . . . there is also the 5.45, 20 ga. and .410. But no matter. Just to keep it simple, an "unconverted Saiga" rifle generally means it is in the original condition as when it was shipped to the US, from Russia, to one of a handful of importers (e.g. RWC group of Tullytown, PA). There were a couple of others through the years. Maybe more. I knew of only 3 in the US. These importers functioned as distributors to dealers throughout the country.

The original configuration a necessary to get these into the country meant they had to be a "sporting" rifle. So they never had a pistol grip. In fact, the trigger and trigger guard were located exactly where the pistol grip should be. They were outfitted with a monte Carlo style synthetic stock. And also a smooth hand guard that left a non AK style gas tube (the Saiga gas tube) exposed. Sold with one 5 round magazine. The first one I bought was around $400 after tax. I wish I had bought at least a dozen of them.

The most essential part in the conversion is moving the trigger group forward. If you don't do this you will not have an AK style grip in the correct position. Also getting rid of that awful Monte Carlo butt stock after the new owner finally decides on something from the litany of choices available on the market. Also the decision about the gas tube (won't get into that). Magazines? Critical decisions must be made. Caliber determines your options. 7.62x39 . . . you are going to want to run standard AK mags. You need to install a bullet ramp and also (very, very critical move here) shave material from your magazine release because the catch on standard AK mags is thicker than the saiga mag. Do not remove too much material!! Btw, did you want a cleaning rod? You are going to need to order a sight and gas block from Dinzag. This is a very intimidating part of the process for a lot of people but the new sight block will be threaded for your muzzle brake. Plus, when you get done, the joy of repainting everything is all yours. Make sure to use a degreaser first. Mineral spirits. For painting, I've used a few different things thatatch the original Saiga black, but the best for the money is an engine paint from auto zone . . . VHT engine enamel SP130.

I have found replacing the gas block more trouble than it's worth. The sight block is a different story. A portion of saiga barrels are threaded. All you have to do is cut that shroud material off the end of the sight block to find out. If it is? Happy, joy . . . 14x1 left hand threads! If not. Another decision to make. If you choose to thread it yourself, you will need a tap and alignment tool. Recommend CNC warrior. Good company.

Labor of love. And so you can see why a lot of people just bought them from Arsenal. TV shows were made from the Saiga conversion business (Son's of Guns . . . Red Jacket Firearms . . . main business in those days was doing conversions on 12 ga.. Owner turned out to be a pedo-creep). I should also mention that there is on outstanding shop here in Kentucky that does conversions / AK customizations. Meridian Ordnance of Mt. Sterling. I highly recommend their business. However, like any really good shop, expect to wait a while.

Otherwise, you can find some videos on YouTube . . . "Saiga conversion". The best informational resource on the web is probably going to be Dinzag.com. Highly recommend Dinzag.

 

[jwheat]

I get you . . . there is also the 5.45, 20 ga. and .410. But no matter. Just to keep it simple, an "unconverted Saiga" rifle generally means it is in the original condition as when it was shipped to the US, from Russia, to one of a handful of importers (e.g. RWC group of Tullytown, PA). There were a couple of others through the years. Maybe more. I knew of only 3 in the US. These importers functioned as distributors to dealers throughout the country.

The original configuration a necessary to get these into the country meant they had to be a "sporting" rifle. So they never had a pistol grip. In fact, the trigger and trigger guard were located exactly where the pistol grip should be. They were outfitted with a monte Carlo style synthetic stock. And also a smooth hand guard that left a non AK style gas tube (the Saiga gas tube) exposed. Sold with one 5 round magazine. The first one I bought was around $400 after tax. I wish I had bought at least a dozen of them.

The most essential part in the conversion is moving the trigger group forward. If you don't do this you will not have an AK style grip in the correct position. Also getting rid of that awful Monte Carlo butt stock after the new owner finally decides on something from the litany of choices available on the market. Also the decision about the gas tube (won't get into that). Magazines? Critical decisions must be made. Caliber determines your options. 7.62x39 . . . you are going to want to run standard AK mags. You need to install a bullet ramp and also (very, very critical move here) shave material from your magazine release because the catch on standard AK mags is thicker than the saiga mag. Do not remove too much material!! Btw, did you want a cleaning rod? You are going to need to order a sight and gas block from Dinzag. This is a very intimidating part of the process for a lot of people but the new sight block will be threaded for your muzzle brake. Plus, when you get done, the joy of repainting everything is all yours. Make sure to use a degreaser first. Mineral spirits. For painting, I've used a few different things thatatch the original Saiga black, but the best for the money is an engine paint from auto zone . . . VHT engine enamel SP130.

I have found replacing the gas block more trouble than it's worth. The sight block is a different story. A portion of saiga barrels are threaded. All you have to do is cut that shroud material off the end of the sight block to find out. If it is? Happy, joy . . . 14x1 left hand threads! If not. Another decision to make. If you choose to thread it yourself, you will need a tap and alignment tool. Recommend CNC warrior. Good company.

Labor of love. And so you can see why a lot of people just bought them from Arsenal. TV shows were made from the Saiga conversion business (Son's of Guns . . . Red Jacket Firearms . . . main business in those days was doing conversions on 12 ga.. Owner turned out to be a pedo-creep). I should also mention that there is on outstanding shop here in Kentucky that does conversions / AK customizations. Meridian Ordnance of Mt. Sterling. I highly recommend their business. However, like any really good shop, expect to wait a while.

Otherwise, you can find some videos on YouTube . . . "Saiga conversion". The best informational resource on the web is probably going to be Dinzag.com. Highly recommend Dinzag.

Goodness gracious. I’m gonna be on the look for one with that stuff already done if possible. Sounds like a explosion close to my face waiting to happen

 

[KopiKat]

Goodness gracious. I’m gonna be on the look for one with that stuff already done if possible. Sounds like a explosion close to my face waiting to happen

You're killing me, my brother . . . the link you provided to Armslist earlier . . . that IS a Saiga that already has all of those things done (converted).

However, I'm cautious about a photo that depicts a 7.62x39 rifle with what appears to be a 5.45x45 magazine in the well.

 

[jwheat]

You're killing me, my brother . . . the link you provided to Armslist earlier . . . that IS a Saiga that already has all of those things done (converted).

However, I'm cautious about a photo that depicts a 7.62x39 rifle with what appears to be a 5.45x45 magazine in the well.

I assumed it was a shotgun.

 

[KopiKat]

I assumed it was a shotgun.

Okay . . . I see. The rifle is listed in the shotgun category on Armslist. But you can see 7,62x39 on the receiver. The listing also has "SGL-31" in the description. This is a model number, by Arsenal, for their post conversion, semi-automatic equivalent to an AK-103. What is an AK-103? It is basically an AK-47 modernized in the earliest days of post-Soviet era opportunity for export and domestic sale. It looks like an AK-74 until you put the more contoured Ak-47 magazine in the well.

You will note the rifle is marked "Legion". There is a LOT of varying information floating out there. Some will say that Legion and Arsenal are two completely separate companies, thus two separately converted Saiga lines. This I believe to be wrong information. The real facts would have to come from someone who knows more than I do. But I believe Legion to have been an importer that converted under their own name at an "arsenal" in Nevada. At some point I believe it came to their advantage to quit marketing the finished product under the importer's name. The reason for that could be because Legion's source for original Saiga's was no longer exclusive to the "FIME" facility. Again, someone much more savvy, a damn bona fide researcher, would have to chime in on this stuff. Anyway . . . the Arsenal name came onto the scene, and they are known to be damn good (from Saigas).

I have heard some people (a few who should know what they are talking about), say the Legion SGLs are absolutely outstanding and beautiful.

 

[jwheat]

Okay . . . I see. The rifle is listed in the shotgun category on Armslist. But you can see 7,62x39 on the receiver. The listing also has "SGL-31" in the description. This is a model number, by Arsenal, for their post conversion, semi-automatic equivalent to an AK-103. What is an AK-103? It is basically an AK-47 modernized in the earliest days of post-Soviet era opportunity for export and domestic sale. It looks like an AK-74 until you put the more contoured Ak-47 magazine in the well.

You will note the rifle is marked "Legion". There is a LOT of varying information floating out there. Some will say that Legion and Arsenal are two completely separate companies, thus two separately converted Saiga lines. This I believe to be wrong information. The real facts would have to come from someone who knows more than I do. But I believe Legion to have been an importer that converted under their own name at an "arsenal" in Nevada. At some point I believe it came to their advantage to quit marketing the finished product under the importer's name. The reason for that could be because Legion's source for original Saiga's was no longer exclusive to the "FIME" facility. Again, someone much more savvy, a damn bona fide researcher, would have to chime in on this stuff. Anyway . . . the Arsenal name came onto the scene, and they are known to be damn good (from Saigas).

I have heard some people (a few who should know what they are talking about), say the Legion SGLs are absolutely outstanding and beautiful.

Man I could read you talking about AKs forever. I love it. Thank you so much

 

[mashburned]

Looking at PSA AK's and some differences between them....

- Front sight/gas block combo. Is there a benefit to this? It's what psa puts on their top tier AK the "E". You get a shorter sight radius. It would be easier to chop down the barrel if you wanted to sbr it.

- muzzle devices...The 103 "klone" has the funky looking 74 style brake/compensator. Is that desirable? More useful than classic slant brake?

- Are side folders cool? What are downsides? I think part of the appeal of the AK is the folding stock. I don't know really know if it's practical or useful aside from more compact storage...I guess in a vehicle it could operate in tighter space.

- optics mounts. If you use the optic mount that attaches to the left side of the receiver, would a sidefolder work with that? I see the front gas tube pic rails which puts the optic way forward...which is fine for a red dot.

 

[jwheat]

Looking at PSA AK's and some differences between them....

- Front sight/gas block combo. Is there a benefit to this? It's what psa puts on their top tier AK the "E". You get a shorter sight radius. It would be easier to chop down the barrel if you wanted to sbr it.

- muzzle devices...The 103 "klone" has the funky looking 74 style brake/compensator. Is that desirable? More useful than classic slant brake?

- Are side folders cool? What are downsides? I think part of the appeal of the AK is the folding stock. I don't know really know if it's practical or useful aside from more compact storage...I guess in a vehicle it could operate in tighter space.

- optics mounts. If you use the optic mount that attaches to the left side of the receiver, would a sidefolder work with that? I see the front gas tube pic rails which puts the optic way forward...which is fine for a red dot.

I don’t think side folders would mess with the function of the AK like they do the AR. Although I’m waiting to find some law tactical folders in stock to put on my shorty AR

 

[KopiKat]

Man I could read you talking about AKs forever. I love it. Thank you so much

Appreciate that. Nice compliment. Came to appreciate AKs a long time ago when stationed at Ft. Bragg, which is also a great place to learn to loathe the design of an M16. Every now and again, about once per training cycle, we would have a foreign weapons familiarity. And even though an M16 might certainly have greater accuracy, particularly 200m and more, the only way the AK receiver was gonna get sand everywhere inside the receiver was if you popped the cover and threw a handful in there. And at Bragg, sand is everywhere. If you've been there you know. So everything with a piston in it was better. And not just by a little, but a lot. Galils are nice. VZs were my favorite. the FAL was probably the best but I wouldn't have wanted to pack one. Be about like a forced march with an M203. good times, good times.

When I got my first saiga I did not fully know how much it could be converted. I only knew it was "AK like" and genuinely Russian and cheap. it just became one of those things that you read about and do. The years went by (never did a shotgun or a .308 conversion). Then Obama, Crimea, the ban . . . new, unconverted, sporter configuration Saiga's dried up fast. But even by then they had been 500-600 price range for a few years (for the x39mm).

The commercial aftermarket was crazy. People everywhere doing their own conversions. Parts being sold on the web all over. For a few years, Carolina Shooter Supply, Mississippi Firearms, certainly Dinzag, CNC, K-VAR, Tapco. Huge portions of these business models was devoted to supporting customers engaged in Saiga conversions, which was growing more and more. But when it came to a stop, it was almost a screeching halt. For a while after when I would go into gun shops I would ask if they had seen any unconverted Saigas. Routinely I might see someone stand in front of a long row of brand new ARs for sale and shake his head VERY disappointingly "no".

 

[jwheat]

Appreciate that. Nice compliment. Came to appreciate AKs a long time ago when stationed at Ft. Bragg, which is also a great place to learn to loathe the design of an M16. Every now and again, about once per training cycle, we would have a foreign weapons familiarity. And even though an M16 might certainly have greater accuracy, particularly 200m and more, the only way the AK receiver was gonna get sand everywhere inside the receiver was if you popped the cover and threw a handful in there. And at Bragg, sand is everywhere. If you've been there you know. So everything with a piston in it was better. And not just by a little, but a lot. Galils are nice. VZs were my favorite. the FAL was probably the best but I wouldn't have wanted to pack one. Be about like a forced march with an M203. good times, good times.

When I got my first saiga I did not fully know how much it could be converted. I only knew it was "AK like" and genuinely Russian and cheap. it just became one of those things that you read about and do. The years went by (never did a shotgun or a .308 conversion). Then Obama, Crimea, the ban . . . new, unconverted, sporter configuration Saiga's dried up fast. But even by then they had been 500-600 price range for a few years (for the x39mm).

The commercial aftermarket was crazy. People everywhere doing their own conversions. Parts being sold on the web all over. For a few years, Carolina Shooter Supply, Mississippi Firearms, certainly Dinzag, CNC, K-VAR, Tapco. Huge portions of these business models was devoted to supporting customers engaged in Saiga conversions, which was growing more and more. But when it came to a stop, it was almost a screeching halt. For a while after when I would go into gun shops I would ask if they had seen any unconverted Saigas. Routinely I might see someone stand in front of a long row of brand new ARs for sale and shake his head VERY disappointingly "no".

My guy who sold me my saiga was stationed in the first tours in Afghanistan. He said his third or fourth day over there they were in a fire fight and his m4 malfunctioned. He said there is no feeling like watching your buddies take bullets and you can only stay down because your gun went to ****. He said he found a citizen willing to part with their polish akm and he took the gun his money and his phone. Never went back to the m4 after that.

I can’t imagine putting that platform through the heat and sand in fort Bragg let alone the part of the world Where bullets are being shot back

 

[KopiKat]

Looking at PSA AK's and some differences between them....

- Front sight/gas block combo. Is there a benefit to this? It's what psa puts on their top tier AK the "E". You get a shorter sight radius. It would be easier to chop down the barrel if you wanted to sbr it.

- muzzle devices...The 103 "klone" has the funky looking 74 style brake/compensator. Is that desirable? More useful than classic slant brake?

- Are side folders cool? What are downsides? I think part of the appeal of the AK is the folding stock. I don't know really know if it's practical or useful aside from more compact storage...I guess in a vehicle it could operate in tighter space.

- optics mounts. If you use the optic mount that attaches to the left side of the receiver, would a sidefolder work with that? I see the front gas tube pic rails which puts the optic way forward...which is fine for a red dot.

Wire folders are extremely cool. The coolest. The mostest of the most cool.

 

[KopiKat]

My guy who sold me my saiga was stationed in the first tours in Afghanistan. He said his third or fourth day over there they were in a fire fight and his m4 malfunctioned. He said there is no feeling like watching your buddies take bullets and you can only stay down because your gun went to ****. He said he found a citizen willing to part with their polish akm and he took the gun his money and his phone. Never went back to the m4 after that.

I can’t imagine putting that platform through the heat and sand in fort Bragg let alone the part of the world Where bullets are being shot back

Have heard other stories along these lines. Just makes me so fkng angry every damn time.

 

[mashburned]

Are wire folders cool to actually shoot...against your cheek? They sure look cool as hell, and uncomfortable.

If people died in part because my AR failed, I would have very strong opinions about that platform. I'm no expert on either, but it sure looks like the AR has more points of failure.