Anyone else hate the 8-man rotation?

[blue_kentucky_boy]

Let me start off by saying that I don't wanna sound like the "we almost lost, the sky is falling, fire Cal" types. I trust coach and believe his judgement is better than mine on almost everything basketball related. I've also never jumped on the "undefeated" bandwagon this season; I think we will lose one or two based on pure chance. That said, I really hope he doesn't stick with the 8 man rotation he used last night.

I've thought "the platoon" system has been instrumental in this groups historic start. Think about it - we were blowing out professional teams in the Bahamas without Cauley-Stein or Lyles using the 5-in, 5-out strategy. As the players said earlier in the season, the Platoon strategy allows them to come in, go balls to the walls for minutes at a time, then get a break. It allowed the players to be more productive (and efficient) in their limited minutes, and also wore the crap out of opposing teams in the second half. Also, if a guy had an off night, the effect was limited due to so many other talented players sharing the minutes.

The 8-man rotation puts a cap on these advantages. An off-night by one player has more of an impact, and we become fatigued along with the opposing team through the course of the game. Don't get me wrong, I still think this team is great with an 8 man rotation, but I feel we'd have the potential to be historically great if we'd continue to use the substitution pattern that was utilized in the early part of the season. Do we think that the Top 8 in this year's group are significantly better than the top 8 in the 09-10 or 11-12 squads? I don't; I think this team has looked so dominant because of how "the platoons" allowed them to play.

As I said, this is one game and I don't want to be too reactionary. But even without Poythress, this group has historic depth, and I think an 8-man rotation limits the potential of this squad.

 

[wild mandu]

Cal played platoon last night. The first platoon brought it, the second one didn't, letting Moody get hot and Ole Miss gain confidence. He then switched players according to who was working best at the time. That's the way it should be.

Platooning is fine...as long as it works. But any coach worth his salt will make adjustments as needed.

 

[Joneslab]

I think the platoons will be back next game. Last night that second group was just godawful and really messed up the entire flow of the game.

Going forward Cal might hold off on putting the second group in if we're starting the game so hot. If he keeps that first group in for another two or three minutes that game doesn't turn out like it did. The fact that the second group gave Ole Miss hope changed the tenor of the game.

It does look like Lee is getting squeezed out a little. But he's odd: he plays well in games you don't really expect him to and can thrive in certain kinds of games. I'd hate to see him just get lost in the shuffle.

 

[UK90]

Not really. I was always pretty sure Cal would eventually be shortening the rotation this way. The platoon idea was a great way to keep everyone happy from November through January, but it ain't really meant for March basketball.

When it comes to late season crunch time you need your best players playing the most minutes, without worrying about constantly subbing in new groups. And, as much as I like Marcus Lee, the fact is he simply is not as good as guys like WCS, Towns and Lyles. Which means every extra minute he's in is a minute when we're playing an inferior lineup to what we could be playing. Why purposely make yourselves weaker?

 

[caneintally]

we are big blue platoon but in 2 of the 14 games we have had to go away from that since the games were tight but in the other 11 especially , since Texas was somewhat tight , we didn't . WE will run the 9 man platoon in 90% of the games but when its tight he needs to have guys like the twins and WCS he can trust to be in there. In the end both will win us the title but the platoon will get us there then in championship or final 4 , wherever we have tight game , the 6-7 he will ride or die with , will win us the game.

 

[SpamburgerHamburger_rivals101482]

I agree the platoon system has a lot to do with the strong start to the season. However, I think the rotation that happened last night was the result of one of the platoons just not working. Cal has repeatedly said he will only use platoon style as long as it's working. It didn't last night and at certain other time during the season. I refuse to believe he'll take a loss to stick to a particular rotation pattern.

I'd argue last night would have been a loss had he stuck with the 4 minute platoon rotations. It's all Monday morning quarterbacking now so we can critique it. Had Alex been in and Trey was back with the Ulis platoon maybe it would have been totally different. His loss really hurts the equality of the platoons.

I'm just sticking with the thought that an opponent showed up and played their A+ game and forced Cal to change it up. And it worked to get a win.

 

[KumarCat]

Platoon doesn't really work with 9. Have to have 10 or it's not really a platoon. We havnt platooned since Alex went out. Now we just sub a lot.

 

[KentuckyWildcat4Life]

Last night Kentucky shot the three ball well however the tweak that was implemented this past week needs thrown out the door. The 5 for 5 platoon needs to be used the entire game and cal needs to be patient and not give up on it so soon like he did last night. Also Willis needs to man the hell up and prove he deserves in the rotation. Same for Hawkins.
With this being said, last night was just a bad night defensively for Kentucky. Kentucky played a c- game Ole Miss played An A game. Kentucky still won and proved why they are the better team.

 

[akaukswoosh]

Originally posted by KumarCat:
Platoon doesn't really work with 9. Have to have 10 or it's not really a platoon. We havnt platooned since Alex went out. Now we just sub a lot.

I agree. Wonder why Hawkins hasn't been made no.10? Last year you inserted him and energy went up good things usually happened on defense.

 

[kyeric]

Would have liked to see Lee a bit more. He was in for 1 minute and had a couple nice plays. Is he going to get a lot of minutes ahead if towns and WCS? Probably not, but would think we could get him in for more than 1 minute.

 

[UK90]

Originally posted by caneintally:

WE will run the 9 man platoon in 90% of the games

There's no such as a "9 man platoon."

I think some folks get confused about what a platoon system is. Simply playing a deep 9 or 10 man rotation does not mean you're platooning. A platoon system implies two separate 4 or 5 man platoons that stay together, are substituted in whole groups for each other, and with both groups getting comparable playing time.

That IS what we were doing at the beginning of the year, but less and less as the season's moved on, and last night Cal essentially abandoned the idea completely.

 

[blue_kentucky_boy]

Originally posted by SpamburgerHamburger:
I agree the platoon system has a lot to do with the strong start to the season. However, I think the rotation that happened last night was the result of one of the platoons just not working. Cal has repeatedly said he will only use platoon style as long as it's working. It didn't last night and at certain other time during the season. I refuse to believe he'll take a loss to stick to a particular rotation pattern.

I'd argue last night would have been a loss had he stuck with the 4 minute platoon rotations. It's all Monday morning quarterbacking now so we can critique it. Had Alex been in and Trey was back with the Ulis platoon maybe it would have been totally different. His loss really hurts the equality of the platoons.

I'm just sticking with the thought that an opponent showed up and played their A+ game and forced Cal to change it up. And it worked to get a win.

Agree about Ole Miss playing an A+ game, that was definitely a factor. But at the same time, UNC played close to an A game against us and still lost by double figures.I also agree that you should make adjustments on a game-to-game basis. However, I don't think that one minute is a long enough sample to conclude that the platoon isn't working in a single game. There's no way to tell what would have happened had Cal used it more last night, but we've been playing historically well using our bench.. and a mediocre SEC took us to overtime at home with a short rotation. There's also no way to prove that the short rotation caused this.. but given the reasoning I provided in my original post, I think it's a significant factor. As I said earlier, Cal has been to three more titles than me so I trust his judgement in the long run.. I just think that shortening the rotation is a misguided choice.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

1. If we had played the platoon system strictly last night...we lose. No question. I do not want to hear anyone argue otherwise because if you do, you do not understand basketball.
2. Ulis and Booker were in foul trouble..so that is why the Harrisons played more minutes than usual. If Cal was honest he would love to play the 4 guards 30-ish minutes each as we are better offensively with 3 guards in the game.

 

[caneintally]

Originally posted by KumarCat:
Platoon doesn't really work with 9. Have to have 10 or it's not really a platoon. We havnt platooned since Alex went out. Now we just sub a lot.

No platooning is subbing a group ( 3 or more ) in for another group. How is that hard to understand Cal has explained it like a zillion times. As he has said , not me , not anyone but you head freaking coach - we are platooning all year . losing Alex just makes the platoons both have lyles that is all. When a game is close we won't platoon as much but most games won't be IMO.

 

[caneintally]

Originally posted by UKWildcats#8:
1. If we had played the platoon system strictly last night...we lose. No question. I do not want to hear anyone argue otherwise because if you do, you do not understand basketball.
2. Ulis and Booker were in foul trouble..so that is why the Harrisons played more minutes than usual. If Cal was honest he would love to play the 4 guards 30-ish minutes each as we are better offensively with 3 guards in the game.

This is dead on correct and why i say the platoon will win us most of our games but the 6-7 he will play in close games will win us the title...

 

[FtWorthCat]

This whole "platoon" thing has been over hyped all year. In 1992-93, we had 11 players that played in 30 or more games and averaged more than 10 minutes per game. I remember Dean Smith subbed five for five a lot of time at North Carolina. The only difference is that we had 10 (with Alex) that were pretty much equal players. So, it's not like we were doing anything all that innovative anyway. Play the ones that give us the best chance to win, which is what Cal did last night.

 

[UK90]

Originally posted by FtWorthCat:

This whole "platoon" thing has been over hyped all year. In 1992-93, we had 11 players that played in 30 or more games and averaged more than 10 minutes per game. I remember Dean Smith subbed five for five a lot of time at North Carolina. The only difference is that we had 10 (with Alex) that were pretty much equal players. So, it's not like we were doing anything all that innovative anyway. Play the ones that give us the best chance to win, which is what Cal did last night.

Basically agree. It was genuinely intriguing at the beginning of the season when we doing the true two teams "5 for 5" exchanges, but there's really nothing all that unique about the way we're substituting now. There've been plenty of deep teams over the years with similar substitution patters.

All the overhype over "platoons" this year kinda reminds of all the overhype over the "Dribble Drive Motion Offense" when Cal first got here--with many of our fans seeming to think it was some revolutionary new system--when it was actually a very simple offense that'd been around for years (and one we never truly ran here, btw). And it also kinda reminds of all the overhype over the "Players First Program" stuff after that.

Cal seems to come up with these themes every once in awhile make sure his program sounds fresh, innovative and different from everyone else--basically what brilliant marketers do. And, with our insane depth, the "platoons" was the perfect marketing theme for this year's team.

 

[Joneslab]

I think most folks know what the platoons are in theory. Not that difficult of a concept. My son's teams played platoons in YMCA basketball. He was three.

There's definitely a marketing aspect to what Cal says. There always is. But basically when you bring four guys in every four minutes, that's virtually a platoon. It's a new team.

I'm still not sure which is the best way. I think there are benefits to playing eight or nine and rotating like clockwork. There might be benefits to playing the same five for long stretches like he did last night.

This team has played well doing it both ways, and both ways have struggled at times.

The best-case scenario, whether you want to call it a platoon or not, is when he subs at the 16:00 of the first half, the energy level will remain high and the lead we have will be lengthened. Last night that didn't happen, and it set the table for the rest of the game. I hope that was just a fluke, and I hope the way Tyler Ulis played in particular was just an issue with that particular match-up.

 

[Uk1111]

Lee needs more minutes, and I love the 5 in 5 out. Fatigue affects players more than most realize, and just because a player starts off bad does not mean that he won't get better. Many have it totally backwards, because March is when platooning is most important due to so many games being played back to back.

 

[sonnyg333]

Its a nine man rotation and yes I like being 15 - 0

 

[ukfan03]

I like the platoon but here is my suggestion. I feel the first platoon should've stayed in at the first tv timeout. They were playing great and should've been rewarded until they cooled off. Anytime a certain platoon is playing great they should stay in until the other team makes the adjustments.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Originally posted by Uk1111:
Lee needs more minutes, and I love the 5 in 5 out. Fatigue affects players more than most realize, and just because a player starts off bad does not mean that he won't get better. Many have it totally backwards, because March is when platooning is most important due to so many games being played back to back.

They were beyond bad though. They gave up a 13 point lead in no time, embarrassing.

 

[Clive Gollings]

Originally posted by blue_kentucky_boy:
As I said, this is one game and I don't want to be too reactionary. But even without Poythress, this group has historic depth, and I think an 8-man rotation limits the potential of this squad.

"You make a substitution and get your new platoon in, and one or two of those guys aren't ready to play[/B]. All of a sudden you turn around and it's 18-12. All of a sudden, they look around and say, 'we can play with these guys,'" Cal said. "Two of the guys in the first half that went in with that substitution and that platoon and didn't play well, they weren't into the game, they had no energy, they had no fight, they were just playing."

 

[xzander37]

Cal has said over and over that if sub B dosen't brang it his mins will go to sub A. Its not a you get 20 mins a night no matter how you play.

 

[caneintally]

Cal basically ended this discussion for like the 9th time this year on Dan Patrick today. The Platoon is here to stay but when the going gets tough he is going with who deserves to play.

 

[CatFanInTheBathtub]

I'm all for whatever Cal wants to do but personally I hope he never again takes out 5 guys who have built a 12-2 lead.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[jackcarlson]

the good thing about the "platoon" system as it now is, is that it allows Calipari to find out early in the game, who has brought their A game for that contest. He knew Ulis had been sick and suspected that he would not be up to snuff and he wasn't.

The remarkable thing about Cal is that he never locks himself in to a certain ideology, he remains flexible and makes the alterations that need to be made when the situation calls for it. For some basketball purists, this is anathema.

 

[Comebakatz3]

Even before Cal brought in the second platoon last night I was worried about it. Our first string guys were hot as fire and they were playing excellent basketball. They had a rhythm and Cal could have continued to ride that. However, the moment the second platoon came in it somewhat put out the fire and we went cold as ice. This is where the platoon system can be bad for us. If you just rotate a player or two out of the first squad then you might not lose the rhythm as much. However, a full scale change completely loses it. Of course, the flip side to that is if your starters don't come out firing on all cylinders you throw in another 4/5 guys within 4 minutes of the start of the game. So, it can certainly have its perks, but it seemed like a detriment last night. That being said, I don't mind seeing it and at times I really enjoy it because it helps bring extra energy and can bring competition and pride. Squad 1 wanting to outplay squad 2 and vice-versa. I just think that Cal needs to continue to be flexible with how he uses it.

 

[Lexchess]

I loved the Platoons. Fatigue is a great enemy that can take down anything. Just ask Moody last night.
Fact: I watched two Platoons beat every team on our schedule by double digits, including teams far greater than Miss.

However, Coach Cal, like any high-level person in their field, is pretty set in his ways of doing things. He knows a 'normal' 7-8 man rotation works and he is comfortable with it and that is what he will always default to when the going gets rough.

I hate the 'ruins the flow of the game crap'. We should be forcing the flow of the game, not the other team. A tired offensive player will settle for easy jumpshots, probably why we took more 3pt shots than Miss. last night. Playing our starters 35-40min completely drops one of our strengths without the other team having to do a single thing (except play good for 1 minute last night).

I have seen JPScott on here in support of keeping Platoons and I try to never disagree with him.

This post was edited on 1/7 4:01 PM by Lexchess

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

Originally posted by caneintally:

Originally posted by KumarCat:
Platoon doesn't really work with 9. Have to have 10 or it's not really a platoon. We havnt platooned since Alex went out. Now we just sub a lot.

No platooning is subbing a group ( 3 or more ) in for another group. How is that hard to understand Cal has explained it like a zillion times. As he has said , not me , not anyone but you head freaking coach - we are platooning all year . losing Alex just makes the platoons both have lyles that is all. When a game is close we won't platoon as much but most games won't be IMO.

Cal can say what he wants, but when you use that term, you are implying that you are clearing the bench and completely replacing whoever was out there. We have not done that since Poythress went down. We are not the first team to do this, so take everything Cal says seriously if you want, but there is already a precedent for this, and we aren't doing it any more.

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

Originally posted by Lexchess:
I loved the Platoons. Fatigue is a great enemy that can take down anything. Just ask Moody last night.
Fact: I watched two Platoons beat every team on our schedule by double digits, including teams far greater than Miss.

However, Coach Cal, like any high-level person in their field, is pretty set in his ways of doing things. He knows a 'normal' 7-8 man rotation works and he is comfortable with it and that is what he will always default to when the going gets rough.

I hate the 'ruins the flow of the game crap'. We should be forcing the flow of the game, not the other team. A tired offensive player will settle for easy jumpshots, probably why we took more 3pt shots than Miss. last night. Playing our starters 35-40min completely drops one of our strengths without the other team having to do a single thing (except play good for 1 minute last night).

I have seen JPScott on here in support of keeping Platoons and I try to never disagree with him.


This post was edited on 1/7 4:01 PM by Lexchess

We settle for a lot of jump shots anyway. Our guards don't attack the basket very much. Part of that is because they are not great at it, and another part is that we struggle to spread the floor when we are playing two centers at the same time. Trying to play everybody equally is not the way to go if we want to be as efficient as we can be on offense. I think we have enough evidence to prove that. It does help defensively, but last night we gave up 80 points, so it wasn't there last night. We had to win a shootout and so we had to play the people who could actually score, and honestly we still got lucky with Moody getting that cramp.

 

[BlueBomb]

Originally posted by blue_kentucky_boy:
I trust coach and believe his judgement is better than mine on almost everything basketball related.

You indicate that Cal has better judgment than you on ALMOST everything basketball related. In what area do you feel that your judgment is actually better than his??

 

[Seth C]

If ending the platoon leads to the type of defense we played last night (hardly any) then we are going to be losing a few games this season. Cal gave up on the second platoon QUICK and everyone seemed out of rhythm on defense the rest of the game. Now, that was also mostly down to the second platoon. They came out with NO energy at all. I hope that doesn't happen again because we are a much better team when we can wear down or opponents using defense.

 

[UKallDay]

I didn't even bother reading the OP's post. We are undefeated and have won all but two of our games by double digits. Cal knows what he is doing.

 

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Seth C:
If ending the platoon leads to the type of defense we played last night (hardly any) then we are going to be losing a few games this season. Cal gave up on the second platoon QUICK and everyone seemed out of rhythm on defense the rest of the game. Now, that was also mostly down to the second platoon. They came out with NO energy at all. I hope that doesn't happen again because we are a much better team when we can wear down or opponents using defense.

Yep

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

They were taking and hitting some really tough shots. Their guards were also crafty at getting to the line. I don't know if the defense could have done much about that. We did not play our best, but I do not think that was some monumental disappointment of a performance, they were just out of their minds.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

I too think the platoon will be back (next game). But I too, don't care for the 8-man rotation. Why? Because we have a really good top 5, but not significantly better than teams like Duke, Arizona, Wisconsin. Our big advantage is the 2nd 5 (even after the Poy injury), and that we can wear teams down going in the 4-5 minute blocks.

 

[blue_kentucky_boy]

Originally posted by UKDUNK:
I didn't even bother reading the OP's post. We are undefeated and have won all but two of our games by double digits. Cal knows what he is doing.

Good contribution, bro.

 

[Bluebloodbud]

Play those that are playing the best. I said back in the middle of Dec that the platoon system wouldn't be used after Christmas break. Cal is going to play who is playing the best. Unless Marcus Lee is sick we are down to 8. He uses the platoon system at the start of the game to get a feel for how should play that night and that's who will play.

 

[Seth C]

Originally posted by Hoskins91:

They were taking and hitting some really tough shots. Their guards were also crafty at getting to the line. I don't know if the defense could have done much about that. We did not play our best, but I do not think that was some monumental disappointment of a performance, they were just out of their minds.

They were taking a lot of shots that no player should ever take, and making them. Despite that there were still a LOT of instances of bored players being lazy on defense. Someone needed to be in front of Moody at all times and there were many times when no one was, or his man was sagging on him hard (being lazy). I also saw a law of lazy rebounding throughout the game. Also our free throws stopped falling near the end of the game because our players were tired (thankfully so did theirs).