Apple vs FBI - should Apple have to help FBI unlock phone

[College#19]

This is a good case. I can see both arguments and it is a slippery slope for Apple. I think Apple has a lot to risk and might even be in a no win situation. Help the FBI and risk losing customers over the fact they now know nothing on their phone is truly safe. Don't help the FBI and risk government relations with the United States for the foreseeable future.

 

[KingOfBBN]

No way should they do it unless it's a unique situation like the San Bernardino case. That is very important information.

I'm pretty anti-government in most cases but they need to know what was in that phone.

 

[fuzz77]

No way should they do it unless it's a unique situation like the San Bernardino case. That is very important information.

I'm pretty anti-government in most cases but they need to know what was in that phone.

The problem is once you've made that key to open the door there is no way to keep that key from getting into other hands.
Nobody knows what is on the phone so it is pure speculation that there is "very important information".

The engineers that created the "GovtOS" as it is being called would instantly be worth millions on the open market and nothing would prevent them from reproducing the software and selling it to terrorist organizations, organized crime, countries like China...

The unintended consequences are not worth whatever information is on that phone.

 

[KingOfBBN]

Good point.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Why doesn't the FBI just call their buddies at the NSA and get the damn data from them?

 

[fuzz77]

Good point.

Besides...they aren't asking for access to just this one phone. They don't want to have and ask Apple every time they have a case so they want something they can use "as needed".

 

[BlueRaider22]

I don't understand how you can't get 3 Apple guys and 3 FBI guys in a clean room under guard. Then open the phone, search it for data, take what you need, then destroy all evidence of the backdoor you created.

I do feel that I don't like the idea of a general backdoor floating around in public.

 

[funKYcat75]

There is a backdoor vulnerability in every version of iOS, isn't there? I thought that is how people keep jailbreaking every version.

 

[Rex Kwon Do]

Absolutely not.

 

[rodgerblue]

If Apple is forced to create the back door to that phone, within 5 years Apple will be forced to create a back door to any Apple device suspected to hold information relevant to any crime.

 

[mdlUK.1]

I assume the FBI has been trying to hack into the phone, so, wouldn't it be better for Apple, for Apple to create the key so they could better control access to it?

 

[-LEK-]

There is a backdoor vulnerability in every version of iOS, isn't there? I thought that is how people keep jailbreaking every version.

Yea.

The odd thing is, the FBI has hacks that can get into the phone.

 

[JohnBlue]

Yea.

The odd thing is, the FBI has hacks that can get into the phone.

Yes but without the key being handed to them they wouldn't have free reign to use it legally whenever they felt like it. If it was only about the information they would have asked Apple to retrieve it and hand it to them without the FBI having to know how it's done. This is politics.

 

[roguemocha]

The FBI needs to figure this **** out for themselves. NO WAY should any company have to bow to their needs. IDGAF what the reasoning is, you can't make a company do your bidding. Where does it stop? At some point we'll all be under the scrutiny of someone's eye and that's crap. I don't do anything illegal but I shouldn't have to worry about all this. Like I said, where does it stop? The whole point of this country is to have some freedom.

 

[qwesley]

FBI should have gone to Taylor Swift first, she is the only person to defeat Apple.

 

[jockstrap_mcgee]

Absolutely no way.

And exactly what information are they hoping to get? The news is national, and these guys are savvy. How likely is it that the contact info even has the contact's real name, and how likely is it they were using burner phones? Besides, I heard on a news report that the data has a shelf life on the phone's hard drive and will be gone in about 6 months or so. How likely is it that there is a decision made on this mess before then?

I think the FBI knows that this data is long gone on this phone and they're trying to make a power play to establish precedent for future cases.

 

[fuzz77]

I don't understand how you can't get 3 Apple guys and 3 FBI guys in a clean room under guard. Then open the phone, search it for data, take what you need, then destroy all evidence of the backdoor you created.

I do feel that I don't like the idea of a general backdoor floating around in public.

You would first have to create the backdoor which would require code development and testing.
How would you remove the knowledge from the people who created the software?

 

[allabouttheUK]

I think they should help the FBI, and willingly. To me this is a matter of National Security. I find it hard to believe that there isn't a way for both sides to get what they want. Apple can crack the phone and turn over the data, and the FBI can say thank you. The FBI doesn't need to have access to the backdoor in order to get what they want.

 

[fuzz77]

There is a backdoor vulnerability in every version of iOS, isn't there? I thought that is how people keep jailbreaking every version.

jailbreaking <> decrypting data...you jailbreak a phone that you already have access...already have the password. The iPhone will wipe all the data if you enter the wrong password 10 times in a row.

 

[fuzz77]

If Apple is forced to create the back door to that phone, within 5 years Apple will be forced to create a back door to any Apple device suspected to hold information relevant to any crime.

That is what this order requires them to do.

 

[JavaGuru]

why not make banks provide backdoors into peoples savings and checking accounts? that way they can pull transaction data and try to find money launders for terrorists?

 

[fuzz77]

Yea.

The odd thing is, the FBI has hacks that can get into the phone.

They might be able to get into the phone...but they can decrypt any encrypted data on the phone.

 

[fuzz77]

I think they should help the FBI, and willingly. To me this is a matter of National Security. I find it hard to believe that there isn't a way for both sides to get what they want. Apple can crack the phone and turn over the data, and the FBI can say thank you. The FBI doesn't need to have access to the backdoor in order to get what they want.

Not sure you understand the unintended consequences of that action.

 

[allabouttheUK]

why not make banks provide backdoors into peoples savings and checking accounts? that way they can pull transaction data and try to find money launders for terrorists?

Doesn't require a backdoor, just requires a search warrant. Or you can follow the money in the opposite direction which is what usually happens.

 

[MegaBlue05]

Absolutely not.

I'm not a give up privacy in the name of security kind of guy. And I'm not so afraid of the brown boogeyman that I'm willing to give the feds backdoor access to every Iphone on Earth.

If they do it once, they'll do it thousands of times.

 

[-LEK-]

Yes but without the key being handed to them they wouldn't have free reign to use it legally whenever they felt like it. If it was only about the information they would have asked Apple to retrieve it and hand it to them without the FBI having to know how it's done. This is politics.

Oh, I get it. Its an odd case

 

[-LEK-]

jailbreaking <> decrypting data...you jailbreak a phone that you already have access...already have the password. The iPhone will wipe all the data if you enter the wrong password 10 times in a row.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Yes, those things are true but you're implying that it's some how hard to hack into your phone. It's not. It's a relatively easy hack.

Hackers have been doing this for years. Backtracking is one way. There are others. It's not an issue at all since the phone is in possession.

The Snowden documents revealed years ago our government has been doing it to. They use your mic and camera to spy on millions.

 

[allabouttheUK]

Not sure you understand the unintended consequences of that action.

If people knew half the stuff the gov't/military has access to they would flip out. People actually still believe they have privacy.

 

[-LEK-]

They might be able to get into the phone...but they can decrypt any encrypted data on the phone.

I think your implying they can't. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[-LEK-]

If people knew half the stuff the gov't/military has access to they would flip out. People actually still believe they have privacy.

Ever looked at the Snowden documents? It's proof of all this. They don't just record your calls, they use your mic and camera to spy.

 

[allabouttheUK]

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Yes, those things are true but you're implying that it's some how hard to hack into your phone. It's not. It's a relatively easy hack.

Hackers have been doing this for years. Backtracking is one way. There are others. It's not an issue at all since the phone is in possession.

The Snowden documents revealed years ago our government has been doing it to. They use your mic and camera to spy on millions.

Doesn't it depend on the model Iphone as well? I mean the iOS on the 4 isn't nearly as secure as the 6.
Glad you pointed out the Snowden documents and how people still believe in the illusion of privacy.

 

[allabouttheUK]

Ever looked at the Snowden documents? It's proof of all this. They don't just record your calls, they use your mic and camera to spy.

It's actually kinda funny if you think about it. Apple and Samsung convince you to buy these awesome cell phones with these unusually nice cameras and really good voice recording capabilities, and the gov't scans it all for what they need. Society got duped into giving up their privacy for the convenience of a cell phone. If that doesn't scream sheep I don't know what does.

 

[anon_aawvduncd4ay0]

I think they have already given them all of the information. This whole charade with court and congress allows Apple to "stick it to the man", and continue to keep the trust of their customers world wide (good or bad). Just my thoughts.

 

[allabouttheUK]

I think they have already given them all of the information. This whole charade with court and congress allows Apple to "stick it to the man", and continue to keep the trust of their customers world wide (good or bad). Just my thoughts.

That's not a bad theory, but it's a pretty big gamble considering they don't know how many customers they could lose because of their stance.

 

[-LEK-]

I think they have already given them all of the information. This whole charade with court and congress allows Apple to "stick it to the man", and continue to keep the trust of their customers world wide (good or bad). Just my thoughts.

They never needed apples help. John Blue was calling it. It's a legal/political issue.

 

[BlueRaider22]

You would first have to create the backdoor which would require code development and testing.
How would you remove the knowledge from the people who created the software?

Legally, maybe?

 

[allabouttheUK]

We haven't tested martial law on the populace in a while. Wonder when they give that a go again?

 

[JumperJack]

Absolutely not.

I'm not a give up privacy in the name of security kind of guy. And I'm not so afraid of the brown boogeyman that I'm willing to give the feds backdoor access to every Iphone on Earth.

If they do it once, they'll do it thousands of times.

I can't help but play devils advocate with your post. If doing this could prevent something on the scale of 9/11 does it then become the right thing for Apple to do?

 

[MegaBlue05]

Maybe, but that slope is pretty damn slippery.

I favor privacy over security. Simple as that.

 

[fuzz77]

Legally, maybe?

Huh?