Baby steps
- Thread starter TarHeelEer
- Start date
But, that becomes a RIGHT at birth. The government is going to give everyone access to equal life. Could that possibly have a shortfall?
Neil, have you ever went without health insurance? What about not having health insurance while your loved one has a serious illness from birth (diabetes)? And when approaching health insurance companies for coverage, they deny you for "pre-existing illness". Yeah, that's a great system right there! No changes needed!
I have a problem with your "government is going to give" statement. They aren't "giving" us anything. Someone has to foot the bill. For the Government to give anyone anything they first have to take it away from someone else.
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I'll answer it ... and it may sound stupid, but when you compare our healthcare to veterinary care it is unbelievable.
Took the dog to the vet, got bloodwork done, 3 weeks worth of pills and a shot and the bill was $120.
I go to get bloodwork done and it's $200 for the office visit, $400 for the bloodwork, and another $300 for the medicine.
I can't even get an eye exam for $120 (I don't think) and they do no labs or anything, "just look into here, is this better or worse, better or worse". (no offense to RPJ)
Now, why is there such a disparity? You can get a dog nuetered for $100, my vasectomy cost $4000. When you start zeroing in on the differences in those costs and why you'll start getting to the root of the problem. And it's not as simple as "that's a dog and that's a human"
An old coworker's father was an orthopedic surgeon and he said his father paid something like $150k/year in malpractice insurance and had never lost a case. There's one of the problems.
Also, when I was growing up the doctor had one person on staff and she did the scheduling and billign and everything. Now, with the insurance companies being as they are it seems like every staff has 2-3 of these kinds of people to stay on top of the billing. Another one of the problems.
If you're in the hospital and they give you an aspirin you get charged $10 for it, when you could go across the street and buy a bottle of 100 of them for $5.
Had no insurance while I was in college. That was my responsibility. Personal obligation paid for childbirth.
I have no problem to amend so that "the prior illness" is covered as long as it is an illness such that coverage cannot be obtained by individual. In all probability it is going to be picked up by system(taxpayer) anyway.
And my wife of 52 years just died from complications related to diabetes. But that seems to be a pretty consistent illness used in the argument of Obamacare, insurance and related discussions.
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If you're paying $120 for a routine eye exam - you're paying too much.
Vets don't have credentialing organizations like hospitals do...those credentialing organizations mandate things are done a certain way and by certain (read educated) people...that all drives the cost...add to that the amount of legal protection required by hospitals versus vets (although that could become quite a niche legal practice).
And there, again, lies the problem. It is.....IF I could afford it for a month premium of $1500-2000!!!!! Yeah, that was one of the quotes. So, in using your words, my wife would have still been denied for coverage under that because the private companies did offer a policy.......just couldn't afford it.
Does your auto insurance pay for oil changes, bake pad changes, tire rotations are any other services that would be considered routine?
Do you feel we (as a country) strive to live healthy?
I'm not sure how much my eye exams are, I just threw that number out there. It seems I had a bill for about $120 the last time, but I don't recall exactly.
A good friend of mine is a vet, and we've had this discussion many times.
Vet school is as costly and as hard (actually harder) than Med school. Facilities and overhead for vets probably isn't too far off what it is for Doctors. The 2 big differences are 1) Insurance and 2) Human's expect more out of their care.
My friend tried talking me into insurance for my dog. I declined, because IMHO the day that insurance for pets becomes the rampant norm, is the day that costs for animal care will skyrocket. When you have Doctors expecting to be paid, Patients expecting it to be paid, then there is zero incentive to keep those costs down.
Also, think about how many times we go to the Doctor or Hospital for something that we wouldn't take our pets for. We are upset if our Dog dies during a procedure, but we're not going to sue and win tens of millions over it. So there is a gap between expectations that keep the liability a Vet faces lower than what a Doc faces.
Meanwhile they can prescribe much of the same medicine.
Can the problem, you are referring to, be solved any way other than govern assuming all obligations?
Let me upset you then. I took the gamble and did without. Could not afford college, and insurance, and eat out, and entertainment. I had to make a choice. I have had this discussion a couple times before. Could you get another job totally to pay insurance?
Two places I have had the discussion before: First was a teacher who thought the government should pay for his insurance since he was trying to better his place in life by going to college. The second was along the same lines. He was going to college and getting food stamps. He was complaining because he didn't get enough food stamps to buy steak more often. My suggestion was that he should not be able to eat steak at all while on food stamps. We ended up agreeing to disagree. Why should I be obligated to share in someone else's life style. In my live, I either paid my own way or did without those things I could not afford. Doing without at the college age is a hell of an incentive to move ahead in real life. I have been accused of "I got mine, and now it is your responsibility to get yours". I do have some compassion for some who can't, but damned little for those who won't? World has gotten a little spoiled in wanting/waiting for someone else to take the bull by the horns.
I think you hit on a couple of the root causes here.
Part of the reason for medical insurance also is that we would do much more for people than we would for animals and people just live longer and will incur more medical expenses. If a dog gets cancer, most people wouldn't put them through chemo and radiation and all of that stuff when the dog is probably already old and will die in another year of old age anyway. Also, because we don't have insurance, most people either don't have or don't want to spend the money so they just put them down peacefully.
I do feel one of the biggest differences is the liabilities that you mentioned and thus the involvement of blood sucking lawyers.
I work, she works. We have insurance. However, her employment pretty much covers the health insurance. We sacrifice to provide. I took other "odd" jobs to help out early on in our marriage until I found a good, steady job that provided health insurance. We didn't go to the movies, eat at restaurants, buy extravagant gifts, or expensive vehicles.
My point is that there are people out there in a similar situation that I was in. Sick spouse, health insurance turned their backs on them or offered them a premium that couldn't be afforded, and their only options are to work 16 hours a day, 2-3 jobs, and kids sacrificed as well.
We get that you are by far a superior person than anyone else and people will write stories of you and your self-sustained lifestyle and how you stuck your middle finger up to the "big brother" government. To me, health care isn't one of those "handouts". A healthy nation (literally) makes for a strong nation!
I'm recently retired after paying 41 years of union dues. As a result I have one of the "Cadillac" health insurance plans that gets me taxed at the end of the year. Why do I have to pay taxes on my health insurance benefits? So the government can use those dollars to provide health care for the knuckle draggers that won't work for a living. People that worked their magic with SS disability and people that are too dumb to hold a real job that comes with benefits. As I said earlier, our Government can't give anything to anyone unless they take it from someone else.
And the government gave you little if any time to make adjustments to account for your new tax obligations
You all haven't discussed "catastrophic limit".
True story: I knew a guy, had a high school diploma, couldn't afford to go to college, was a good-hearted guy, not a rocket scientist, worked odd jobs - cut grass, repaired small engines, handy-man work, whatever he could find, of course I don't have to tell you he couldn't live a lavish lifestyle like this. He couldn't even afford a car, insurance, gasoline, etc. He rode a bicycle every where he went. He knew he wasn't well off enough financially to support a family, so he never married nor had children. (So much for the Republicans looking down their noses at this waste and burden to society, because after all, the only people on welfare or food stamp are leaches that are lazy bums). He had no health insurance - couldn't afford it. He started getting seizures, losing weight. No one knew the cause, he couldn't afford a doctor. He died at the ripe old age of 52.
I'm sure just about everyone on here could say they know of a similar situation. This happens in America, one of the most developed countries in the world.
True story: I knew a guy, had a high school diploma, couldn't afford to go to college, was a good-hearted guy, not a rocket scientist, worked odd jobs - cut grass, repaired small engines, handy-man work, whatever he could find, of course I don't have to tell you he couldn't live a lavish lifestyle like this. He couldn't even afford a car, insurance, gasoline, etc. He rode a bicycle every where he went. He knew he wasn't well off enough financially to support a family, so he never married nor had children. (So much for the Republicans looking down their noses at this waste and burden to society, because after all, the only people on welfare or food stamp are leaches that are lazy bums). He had no health insurance - couldn't afford it. He started getting seizures, losing weight. No one knew the cause, he couldn't afford a doctor. He died at the ripe old age of 52.
I'm sure just about everyone on here could say they know of a similar situation. This happens in America, one of the most developed countries in the world.
So, you are assuming that ONLY those that refuse to work on those that need health insurance? What about those that do work, sometimes 2-3 jobs, and still cannot get affordable insurance? Are they, too, "knuckle draggers"? You see, that's the problem. You all make the unreasonable assumption that the majority of Americans who supported a health insurance overhaul were the ones that are wanting the "handouts", which is NOT true.
This is exactly why I hate Republicans. They are too damn dumb to figure out there are plenty of hard working Americans out there that aren't blessed with the ability to make a lot of money. They assume that everyone that is poor, is simply poor because they are lazy.
I don't think you are choosing to listen. I was in the same boat as you and a lot of others. I could have taken the welfare route and been satisfied with what the government wanted to give me. I wanted more for my family. Went back to school and took risks and did without a hell of a lot in exchange for an education. That opened some doors and I moved a good bit for better jobs. And the doing without and sacrificing has stuck with me thru the years. I still don't buy what I don't need. Probably made a couple exceptions when there is something I want or something I want to give. That is my choice. You bet your sweet *** that I am not for the government assuming personal responsibilities of individuals. And I have never thought I was superior to anyone. Those who cannot help themselves, I am glad I can help. But, damn those who want to make excuses that someone else owes them a lifestyle. If people pay for what they enjoy, more power to them for living as extravagantly as they can stand. As for me, I will not waste.
That excise tax hasn't started yet and probably never will (at least not at current levels).
Again, you are choosing to NOT listen. I'm not talking about "welfare". I'm talking about helping those people who have JOBS but still cannot get affordable health care.
So, if I understand your first question, we expect our health insurance to cover too much? How would we go about fixing that? As for the second, very few Americans follow what the medical profession would consider a healthy lifestyle. Fixing that wouldn't just involve leading the horse to water, it would be getting the horse to float on its back. [winking]
This is why I hate Democrats. They assume Republicans don't want anyone to receive help because they don't want the government doing it.
I paid for that too. I had the beginning that gives rise to Democrats. Didn't have Jack ****, broken home, born and raised in Southern WV - real Appalachia. LBJ, JFK and Robert Byrd knocking on door to get me to sign up for welfare and register Democrat. Damn, all the bleeding heart liberals were making excuses for me and trying to tell me where I could live and eat and vote. Just had to kick back and *** all I wanted and breed. The more mommas I had that could reproduce, was related to how much income I could get when I picked up my payday at the PO on the 3rd.
*******, I was getting an aching back from picking myself up(more checks), but back got a little stronger when I saw what I wanted to do. Struggling lessons were educational and an inspiration. Would have felt sorry for myself, but looked around and a lot of my neighbors were just like me, and some were even in pretty bad shape. Some got out and some didn't. There is nothing wrong in inheriting disadvantaged life. The way you handle it is where we get separation. Really admired those who started there and became Dr or Lawyer. I wanted to be an Indian chief.
It wouldn't be so easy to assume that if Republicans would offer some alternative other than "not the government." Are we supposed to just ignore people who work themselves toward an early grave but still can't afford "extras" like health insurance?
That sounds pretty accurate. I am a Republican and hope everyone can pick themselves up to make their own life and decision. It is heartbreaking to see those that fail who sit down and accept what fate has to offer. I am sure it is rough when some try hard and fail. There are no guarantees that come with the package.
It was cheaper to do it the way we were before, without government involvement. As it was always said, it was a big ruse to get to single payer, which will either be more expensive, cut benefits, or both.
What is the alternative that you offer? Some people really struggle when they don't get all they want. What is your solution.
Damn. I really wanted a pony when I was little. Felt sorry for myself when I was told "no". What was a poor boy to do.
Oh you're talking about because our wages have not increased in 45 years? That's an entirely different topic. Since we're shipping all of our jobs overseas, or letting too many from other countries come in to get them, we have a smaller pie, figure out how to divvy it out.
I know you are a bitter little ****, but it takes a special kind of bastard to compare people wanting access to healthcare to kids wanting a pony.
Healthcare is a commodity and you are entitled to it just like you would be gas at sheets. The first thing you do is let companies compete across state lines. Then limit tort claims. Hospitals fight off site clinics that eat into their surgical pools. Hospitals use them to help pay for other costs.
True at least for now. But there is a seperate W-2 type form ( I can't recall the specific number of that form and I'm not looking it up for this forum) that those of us with well earned health insurance benefits must provide with our tax returns. And there are federal subsidies for those whose employers don't provide health insurance for them or offer plans that they can't afford. The knuckle draggers I referred to earlier are the ones who are living on SS benefits and Medicare because they found doctors that would document their false claims of not being able to work. One of those was a former neighbor of mine that was healthy enough to ride a Harley Davidson to Sturgis ND every year but couldn't work because he supposedly had a "bad back". Who do you suppose is paying for medical care for that type of person? You are.