Baker

[PatrickYates]

Him not playing last night, given the situation, screams to me that he is likely to red shirt this year.
.
I really worried about 3pt shooting before the domestic exhibition games. But RJ and Zion are much better than expected (3 games is enough to know they won't be bad perimeter shooters, and we don't need them to be great), Cam and Tre look great, and AOC and White are great shooters for this team's needs. I no longer think we need Baker's 3pt shooting this year.
.
To me, it comes down to what is more valuable: Baker adding a slight amount of 3pt shooting vs what a year in the weight room will do in the future.
.
And I don't think he adds much to this year's team. Not because of him, but because the rest of the squad is beastly. Frankly, Jack White is much better at everything besides shooting, and Baker probably isn't much better at that. Any time Baker gets comes from White, and we don't need that.
.
I love Baker's long term potential. I'd marry his long term potential if he played this year instead of RSing. But I'd cheat on my hot wife with his long term potential after a RS year in the weight room. I know that game time experience is valuable. But a year in the weight room, playing vs our guys in practice, and the one-on-one practice time on game day with the staff will be invaluable long term. Next year he'd have a chance to be one of the best new comers in the nation.
.
I'm fine either way, but last night said to me that he's going to RS.

 

[SwatX1]

You are most likely right, but if I were him, I would want to play with these guys this year!

 

[BOOGIEMAN1914]

i dont see the upside to RS him unless he plans on being at duke 5 years

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

i dont see the upside to RS him unless he plans on being at duke 5 years

Yea not happening imo

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

Yea not happening imo

I sorta take that back. He can redshirt becuase why not if you have 0 playing time? Its the (smart) thing to do if that’s the case...but he ain’t staying no 5 years...so it pretty much doesn’t change anything or matter either way.

 

[BlueDaveil]

They asked K about it in his press conference last night. He said they were waiting to see if they would need him or not this year and hadn’t made any decisions.

 

[DukeRulesBasketball]

Joey doesn’t need to RS. IMO, it would be ridiculous to do that because he can definitely contribute this season.

 

[PatrickYates]

I sorta take that back. He can redshirt becuase why not if you have 0 playing time? Its the (smart) thing to do if that’s the case...but he ain’t staying no 5 years...so it pretty much doesn’t change anything or matter either way.

I know he won't be here for 5 years. But what he needs most is time in the weight room to add strength. That can't happen, not really, for a kid that is playing in games. To add strength and good weight, it takes a very regimented training and eating program that is consistent. You can't be consistent on a game schedule, because the games come at inconsistent times. You can't lift heavy on the day before a game, or really the day of the game. If he plays 5ish minutes, the day after a game is off limits for really heavy weight lifting, ditto power or O-lifts (the cornerstones of increasing strength and power and mass).
.
Over the course of the next year, he could add 20+ lbs of good muscle and tons of strength, making him that much more effective in the future.
.
Frankly, he just doesn't add much this year.
.
Keep in mind, any meaningful minutes he plays this year come at the expense of Zion, RJ, Jack, and Cam, while also compressing the MPG available for AOC. Time in the weight room, practicing vs our team, and the one on one instruction available on game day will be invaluable long term.

 

[PatrickYates]

Joey doesn’t need to RS. IMO, it would be ridiculous to do that because he can definitely contribute this season.

Who do you take minutes from so that Baker can play?

 

[DukeRulesBasketball]

Who do you take minutes from so that Baker can play?

If there is an injury or multiple injuries more than anything, which I i certainly hope there is not.

 

[PatrickYates]

If there is an injury or multiple injuries more than anything, which I i certainly hope there is not.

Should that happen, we burn the RS. That happens in FB all the time. Even 1-2 months of dedicated strength conditioning would do wonders for him. If we didn't need him until Jan 1, that would be the close equivalent of a summer weight lifting regimen.
.
Don't play him until/unless we need him. Until then, shut him down, stick him in the weight room, and chain the doors shut. Let him out for class and Sat night fun/sexy times.
.
Hie thee to the squat rack young man.

 

[DiehardDukeFan4Life]

Is there a deadline for when a player has to apply for a redshirt? Or can they apply for a redshirt at any point in the season as long as they haven’t played in too many games?

 

[dukesince91]

I guess we should redshirt AOC, since he definitely needs more time in the weight room. Lol

 

[PatrickYates]

I guess we should redshirt AOC, since he definitely needs more time in the weight room. Lol

AOC has more pure SG skills than Baker. Baker literally plays the same position as Cam, RJ, and Jack White (and Zion, if we are honest). AOC can spell Cam/RJ as our SG, which Baker cannot. Baker can only play the forward. SF/PF. That is it. No SG, no PG, no PF, no C.
.
Again, whose minutes would you all cut to play Baker this year? Cam? RJ? Zion? Jack White? I'll take all 4 of those guys over Baker this year. We talk about not having Baker for 4 years, much less 5. No poop.
.
Guess what? While we will have Baker for only 2-3 years, it is more than THIS year. Cam, RJ, and Zion will be gone in 6 months (team). So lets play those studs all we can this year while Baker gets ready for NEXT year, when we'll need him to be really good, AND when Cam, RJ, and Zion will be bucking for NBA ROY.

 

[jamsession3]

The kid should RS. I don't see how this is even a conversation. Too many players at the same position.

 

[FearTheBeard_rivals208808]

The best competition he’ll see all year will be at practice whether he RS or not.

 

[dukesince91]

I agree he should redshirt as well, I was just poking fun at the weight training. Some people just have a hard time with adding weight (muscle) - see AOC. I do think Baker will be able to add muscle weight much faster than Alex.

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

Who do you take minutes from so that Baker can play?

Good point, I have no idea who I’m (taking) minutes from. Baker can play from foul trouble lol. End of game ? Injury? Before I saw that Kentucky game I thought we could get him in and contribute with shooting, but after that game .....?

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

I guess we should redshirt AOC, since he definitely needs more time in the weight room. Lol

Lol not the same situation, but I’m with you on I don’t think it’s a weight issue keeping him off the court.

 

[PatrickYates]

Good point, I have no idea who I’m (taking) minutes from. Baker can play from foul trouble lol. End of game ? Injury? Before I saw that Kentucky game I thought we could get him in and contribute with shooting, but after that game .....?

This is the basic point. Baker just doesn't help that much, game in and game out. Sure, there will be some bad games from the perimeter where his presence would probably be helpful, but I expect those games to be few and far between.
.
All players NEED time in the weight room. A RS year would be great for almost every player. Few teams can afford to utilize that RS year, especially with a top player like Baker. But we can spend the year, so why shouldn't we?

 

[nets on nets on nets]

Baker is gonna be really good. The problem is...the 3 best players on the team (and maybe the 3 best players in the country) all play his SAME position. Like Yates said, Baker doesn't have a lot of flexibility right now, he can't play guard and can't play the 5. Plus with the way Jack looked Tuesday night, it would take more than 1 injury for Baker to have any chance at PT.

AOC on the other hand, clearly needs to continue getting stronger....but he's a prototypical 2-guard, and we need a backup 2-guard. His shot looked great, as always, on Tuesday night.

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

I just don’t see the whole weight thing in college being a issue . His games not predicated on using his weight anyway .. like Alex’s isn’t ... Now could it help his D yea but yea lol ....Rebounding ...Could help in some ways that aren’t his strengths... Not that important to me in college as it is in the NBA.

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

And I really don’t see any type of benifit to RS him and that getting him stronger?? I don’t understand how a RS gets someone more stronger then not a RS hahaha but yea let’s just say it got him a little stronger by RS him. Ok is he that much better with another say 1 lb of muscle hahah never mind ...players get better by playing...not RS so they can “build muscle becuase they can’t after playing in games during the season “ ?

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

Patty I love you, then I’m scratching my head, then I love you, then I scratch my head with you hahaha

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

Baker is gonna be really good. The problem is...the 3 best players on the team (and maybe the 3 best players in the country) all play his SAME position. Like Yates said, Baker doesn't have a lot of flexibility right now, he can't play guard and can't play the 5. Plus with the way Jack looked Tuesday night, it would take more than 1 injury for Baker to have any chance at PT.

AOC on the other hand, clearly needs to continue getting stronger....but he's a prototypical 2-guard, and we need a backup 2-guard. His shot looked great, as always, on Tuesday night.

Alex is scrappy strong ...just look what happen to his hair

 

[jibip]

This is very presumptuous, but IIRC in 2010 Seth Curry redshirted during his transfer from liberty. Bc of that, he wasn’t recognized as being part of the team by the NCAA. K took exception to that.

Should this team win some hardware and Baker redshirts I assume he’d be in the same situation. Might be worth it to Joey vs a potential 5th season that may never happen.

 

[Arlene]

i dont see the upside to RS him unless he plans on being at duke 5 years

I’ve got the same thoughts. Saying after one real game that we don’t need Baker and should RS is foolish. Zion and Javin showed they both can rack up personal fouls quickly, and having Baker available with be needed. Also, assuming Baker is a guy who’s going to be around for 4+ years is nuts.

 

[nets on nets on nets]

This is very presumptuous, but IIRC in 2010 Seth Curry redshirted during his transfer from liberty. Bc of that, he wasn’t recognized as being part of the team by the NCAA. K took exception to that.

Should this team win some hardware and Baker redshirts I assume he’d be in the same situation. Might be worth it to Joey vs a potential 5th season that may never happen.

Seth Curry sat out because of having to sit a year for transferring, along with Sean Obi. Ironically, both those years we won the title.

Joey would not be sitting due to a transfer, that is a rule, this would be a redshirt year (made by choice.) We haven't had many guys redshirt lately, I think the last was Marshall Plumlee??

With Joey's situation being different, I'm not sure if a redshirted guy gets a ring, we only win titles when guys sit out for transferring lol.

 

[PatrickYates]

And I really don’t see any type of benifit to RS him and that getting him stronger?? I don’t understand how a RS gets someone more stronger then not a RS hahaha but yea let’s just say it got him a little stronger by RS him. Ok is he that much better with another say 1 lb of muscle hahah never mind ...players get better by playing...not RS so they can “build muscle becuase they can’t after playing in games during the season “ ?

Because by RSing him, he can start a dedicated strength and conditioning program. Why do you think guys get bigger/stronger/better conditioned over the summer, rather than during the season? Sure, some lard arses can get into shape playing games and practices, but they are just losing bad weight due to the cardio demands of BB.
.
Guys get stronger in the off season. That is because adding strength and good weight is dependent on a consistent and progressive weight lifting regimen. And successful programs of this nature are exhausting. You lift very heavy, or very hard (less weight but move explosive movements or higher volume) on 1 day. After this session, you might do some explosive cardio, or even steady state. But after a lifting session like this, you can't play hoops at a high level.
.
But you don't get stronger on the day you lift. You get stronger the day AFTER you lift. That has to be what amounts to an OFF day with no lifting or heavy exertion. Those days feature a lot of stretching, massages, and very light cardio to keep the blood flowing as muscles repair themselves, growing in the process. You can't play a hoops game, even in limited minutes, on the off day.
.
Playing a game, even in limited minutes, on the day after a heavy lifting session, or the day after, is a recipe for a serious injury. He also won't play well after these types of sessions, because he'll be exhausted.
.
I know that Baker would get some burn, and probably play well enough, vs the bottom 90% of the teams we'll play this year. IDGAF about those games. I take them for granted. If we can't win 95% of the games vs the bottom 90% of the teams we play, we are in real trouble in March.
.
I care a great deal about the top 10% of the teams we play, because those are the games that determine seeding in tournaments, and then success in those tournaments. And Baker won't help much vs them.
.
He got bumped around in that last exhibition game by players much smaller, weaker, and slower than he'll see on any above average ACC team or better. I loved his willingness, bordering on eagerness, to throw himself into the fray. But he wasn't successful. A year in the weight room will fix that. And, he'll still get better experience in practice than he will in games.
.
Rarely do players have a chance to do what he's done. He's gone to a situation at Duke wherein he can take time to work on his body and game (pre game, while his teammates are getting ready to play he'll be working with the coaches in intense one-on-one situations) while practicing against studs who play his position. He wasn't ever going to play a lot this year. Those advocating for him to play have to realize he'll get less than 3-5 meaningful MPG this year. He might push for 7-8 mpg, but much of that would be in garbage time. Right now, he's a spot up shooter on a team that probably doesn't need that much help from any spot up shooter in college hoops. A year getting stronger and we'll see a guy closer to Kyle Singler than college hoops will be happy about.

 

[PatrickYates]

Seth Curry sat out because of having to sit a year for transferring, along with Sean Obi. Ironically, both those years we won the title.

Joey would not be sitting due to a transfer, that is a rule, this would be a redshirt year (made by choice.) We haven't had many guys redshirt lately, I think the last was Marshall Plumlee??

With Joey's situation being different, I'm not sure if a redshirted guy gets a ring, we only win titles when guys sit out for transferring lol.

RS frosh DO get rings. They are on the roster. Transfers, during the transfer years, are not technically on the roster of the college team, and as such cannot transfer or receive rings, etc.
.
Joey would travel, and usually dress out for games. For emergency purposes. But he just wouldn't play. He's still on the available roster for the team, so he gets a ring if the team wins one.

 

[PatrickYates]

I’ve got the same thoughts. Saying after one real game that we don’t need Baker and should RS is foolish. Zion and Javin showed they both can rack up personal fouls quickly, and having Baker available with be needed. Also, assuming Baker is a guy who’s going to be around for 4+ years is nuts.

Everything Baker does, Jack White does better. Baker might be a better spot up shooter, but I'd bet it isn't by much. White is likely a much better rebounder, defender, and passer, while being nearly as good.
.
Folks, Baker won't get "slightly" better by RSing and working out. He'll get MUCH better. He's got college level skill right now. He needs a college level body. This could see him develop that body into the type of stud teams need to win titles.

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

Ok pat since he’s not playing in these games now what makes you think he’s not lifting....And I don’t think you can’t play if your lifting or all that stuff you said about injury... I also think having him play and lift weights lightly this season will help him far more then just putting him in jail lifting weights.. And I ask you what’s the problem with playing now and lifting weights during the summer and being ready for next year ...”if you can’t lift weights and play becuase of injury” ? ...Another ? Is can he practice if he’s lifting weights? Lol I’ve never heard such........To just sum all of this up I think it’s better for him to play this year, and you think it benifits him to put him in jail

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

Shorten your posts up a bit and let me debate one thing at a time please It’s too much for me and I forget half of it before I’m half way through reading it and get a headache (re)reading it .....and still can’t remember everything ....dumb it up some too

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

Everything Baker does, Jack White does better. Baker might be a better spot up shooter, but I'd bet it isn't by much. White is likely a much better rebounder, defender, and passer, while being nearly as good.
.
Folks, Baker won't get "slightly" better by RSing and working out. He'll get MUCH better. He's got college level skill right now. He needs a college level body. This could see him develop that body into the type of stud teams need to win titles.

“Likely” you mean he is period lol

 

[nets on nets on nets]

Ok pat since he’s not playing in these games now what makes you think he’s not lifting....And I don’t think you can’t play if your lifting or all that stuff you said about injury... I also think having him play and lift weights lightly this season will help him far more then just putting him in jail lifting weights.. And I ask you what’s the problem with playing now and lifting weights during the summer and being ready for next year ...”if you can’t lift weights and play becuase of injury” ? ...Another ? Is can he practice if he’s lifting weights? Lol I’ve never heard such........To just sum all of this up I think it’s better for him to play this year, and you think it benifits him to put him in jail

It's pretty basic. When your playing a 40 game basketball season, you can't lift weights as hard as you would if your playing a 0 game basketball season. Basketball games are tough, they make your muscles tired, and those muscles need time to gain strength back.

I'm sure all of our guys are sitll lifting weights during the season, but they are lifting to MAINTAIN their strength, not to GAIN strength. Baker needs to gain more muscle.
When you lift to gain muscle, and play basketball, which put's a lot of strain on joints/tendons/muscles, you get injured much easier.

 

[Arlene]

Because by RSing him, he can start a dedicated strength and conditioning program. Why do you think guys get bigger/stronger/better conditioned over the summer, rather than during the season? Sure, some lard arses can get into shape playing games and practices, but they are just losing bad weight due to the cardio demands of BB.
.
Guys get stronger in the off season. That is because adding strength and good weight is dependent on a consistent and progressive weight lifting regimen. And successful programs of this nature are exhausting. You lift very heavy, or very hard (less weight but move explosive movements or higher volume) on 1 day. After this session, you might do some explosive cardio, or even steady state. But after a lifting session like this, you can't play hoops at a high level.
.
But you don't get stronger on the day you lift. You get stronger the day AFTER you lift. That has to be what amounts to an OFF day with no lifting or heavy exertion. Those days feature a lot of stretching, massages, and very light cardio to keep the blood flowing as muscles repair themselves, growing in the process. You can't play a hoops game, even in limited minutes, on the off day.
.
Playing a game, even in limited minutes, on the day after a heavy lifting session, or the day after, is a recipe for a serious injury. He also won't play well after these types of sessions, because he'll be exhausted.
.
I know that Baker would get some burn, and probably play well enough, vs the bottom 90% of the teams we'll play this year. IDGAF about those games. I take them for granted. If we can't win 95% of the games vs the bottom 90% of the teams we play, we are in real trouble in March.
.
I care a great deal about the top 10% of the teams we play, because those are the games that determine seeding in tournaments, and then success in those tournaments. And Baker won't help much vs them.
.
He got bumped around in that last exhibition game by players much smaller, weaker, and slower than he'll see on any above average ACC team or better. I loved his willingness, bordering on eagerness, to throw himself into the fray. But he wasn't successful. A year in the weight room will fix that. And, he'll still get better experience in practice than he will in games.
.
Rarely do players have a chance to do what he's done. He's gone to a situation at Duke wherein he can take time to work on his body and game (pre game, while his teammates are getting ready to play he'll be working with the coaches in intense one-on-one situations) while practicing against studs who play his position. He wasn't ever going to play a lot this year. Those advocating for him to play have to realize he'll get less than 3-5 meaningful MPG this year. He might push for 7-8 mpg, but much of that would be in garbage time. Right now, he's a spot up shooter on a team that probably doesn't need that much help from any spot up shooter in college hoops. A year getting stronger and we'll see a guy closer to Kyle Singler than college hoops will be happy about.

What are the rules regarding practicing and traveling to away games or tournaments with this year’s team. Personally think that he would get much more out of practicing against, playing with, and traveling with this current group of players. It’s pretty rare to four players as talented on one team who are also team first players and have such a winning attitude. Think Baker would get more out of going through a season as an active player vs RSing with this team even if he only plays in mop up time.

The above is especially true if he can’t travel with the team because I assure you there will be a couple games on the road when we will need him and his 5 fouls because Zion, Cam, and Javin are in foul trouble. If he can’t travel then you can’t decide mid game to pull his redshirt because he won’t even be there.

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

It's pretty basic. When your playing a 40 game basketball season, you can't lift weights as hard as you would if your playing a 0 game basketball season. Basketball games are tough, they make your muscles tired, and those muscles need time to gain strength back.

I'm sure all of our guys are sitll lifting weights during the season, but they are lifting to MAINTAIN their strength, not to GAIN strength. Baker needs to gain more muscle.
When you lift to gain muscle, and play basketball, which put's a lot of strain on joints/tendons/muscles, you get injured much easier.

Gotcha, I ain’t getting into it. I don’t know anything about that ...Makes sense to me thoigh, but I still don’t see a weight issue haha

 

[dukephysics]

Don't forget, too, that a red-shirt isn't necessarily a year long commitment. He can start with that being the plan, but if we get hit by injuries or something, they could pull the red-shirt and he could play.

Everything Baker does, Jack White does better.

This. I just don't see what Baker would give us THIS YEAR that we don't get from Jack White. With Jav, AOC, and White coming off the bench as quality contributors, does anyone really think Baker will get more than mop up duty minutes all season? Throw in a Goldwire and Vrank and I just don't see Baker getting much time at all.

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

Pat I get it now nervmind

 

[jamsession3]

Joey Baker is RS because the team does not need him to contribute yet on the court. This is not a difficult concept to understand. Yes, he came a year early, however, he was made aware of what the roster would look like. I wish Jordan Tucker would've made the same decision...sadly if he did we probably wouldn't have Zion, Cam or RJ