Been there CMP- Joe B Hall 1974

[theKybluedude]

UK went through a 13-13 season in 1973 -74. Did not make the tourney.
In ‘74 after a brutal and embarrassing 24 point lose to IU they were getting beat by UNC and Coach Hall was getting questioned. He finally got fed up and went off in that game. Changed the season and his trajectory.

Learn from it Mark Pope! No players bigger than your program. If drastic changes are needed .. make them.

Kentucky 90, North Carolina 78 on Dec. 9, 1974: Coming off a 98-74 loss at Indiana that featured IU coach Bob Knight’s infamous slap of UK coach Joe B. Hall on the back of the head, the Cats fell behind the Tar Heels early at Freedom Hall in Louisville. Hall benched his starters until they informed the coach they were ready to play. And they did so with a vengeance. The win turned around a season in which the Cats made it all the way to the national title game before losing to UCLA.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

 

[Anon1679859502]

With NIL and the portal available now days no Kentucky coach should struggle like that.

 

[Anony Moose]

UK went through a 13-13 season in 1973 -74. Did not make the tourney.
In ‘74 after a brutal and embarrassing 24 point lose to IU they were getting beat by UNC and Coach Hall was getting questioned. He finally got fed up and went off in that game. Changed the season and his trajectory.

Learn from it Mark Pope! No players bigger than your program. If drastic changes are needed .. make them.

Kentucky 90, North Carolina 78 on Dec. 9, 1974: Coming off a 98-74 loss at Indiana that featured IU coach Bob Knight’s infamous slap of UK coach Joe B. Hall on the back of the head, the Cats fell behind the Tar Heels early at Freedom Hall in Louisville. Hall benched his starters until they informed the coach they were ready to play. And they did so with a vengeance. The win turned around a season in which the Cats made it all the way to the national title game before losing to UCLA.

He spend 22 million on a roster in the NIL era or have a transfer portal to recruit from?

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

With NIL and the portal available now days no Kentucky coach should struggle like that.

Disagree. The portal is going to cause greater variability. This level of roster turnover is going to be a challenge no matter who the coach is. You hope Pope turns it around and we get to a point where we don’t have to rely on adding a bunch of unknowns to the roster, this is the part of the equation I wish we considered more.

 

[Anon1759768907]

With NIL and the portal available now days no Kentucky coach should struggle like that.

he was literally able to handpick who he wanted with 22mil and somehow picked the least talented kentucky team of the last 2 decades

 

[Goingfor9]

UK went through a 13-13 season in 1973 -74. Did not make the tourney.
In ‘74 after a brutal and embarrassing 24 point lose to IU they were getting beat by UNC and Coach Hall was getting questioned. He finally got fed up and went off in that game. Changed the season and his trajectory.

Learn from it Mark Pope! No players bigger than your program. If drastic changes are needed .. make them.

Kentucky 90, North Carolina 78 on Dec. 9, 1974: Coming off a 98-74 loss at Indiana that featured IU coach Bob Knight’s infamous slap of UK coach Joe B. Hall on the back of the head, the Cats fell behind the Tar Heels early at Freedom Hall in Louisville. Hall benched his starters until they informed the coach they were ready to play. And they did so with a vengeance. The win turned around a season in which the Cats made it all the way to the national title game before losing to UCLA.

Joe B in year one lost only 8 games, won the SeC regular season and made the elite 8. We haven’t had a coach win a title without making elite 8 in their first tournament in the modern era. Joe B was a good coach but today he wouldn’t cut it. Recruiting today requires the right connections and pope cannot land a game changer. He has nothing cooking for next year. You can’t just look at the last 4 losses. Gotta look ahead to what will change. He may clean house with his staff but that will take a season to really make a difference.

 

[Goingfor9]

Disagree. The portal is going to cause greater variability. This level of roster turnover is going to be a challenge no matter who the coach is. You hope Pope turns it around and we get to a point where we don’t have to rely on adding a bunch of unknowns to the roster, this is the part of the equation I wish we considered more.

The guy you replied to was right. We just out spent other schools by a lot and we suck. It matters. Popes roster in hindsight was put together in desperation. With NIL UK should be willing to out spend for a recruit. We just need a guy to sell recruits and a head coach with connections not a guy limited to the west Midwest his associate HC was a terrible recruiter. I mean when I see mark Fox as the bench experience it doesn’t instill confidence in things changing. It doesn’t matter we need to get rid of Barney first.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

The guy you replied to was right. We just out spent other schools by a lot and we suck. It matters. Popes roster in hindsight was put together in desperation. With NIL UK should be willing to out spend for a recruit. We just need a guy to sell recruits and a head coach with connections not a guy limited to the west Midwest his associate HC was a terrible recruiter. I mean when I see mark Fox as the bench experience it doesn’t instill confidence in things changing. It doesn’t matter we need to get rid of Barney first.

Brother, I didn’t say anything about how much we spent. You could spend $256M on a roster and if they don’t like each other, it’s gonna be a bad product. This is a reason why you hear the best coaches always talking about minutes continuity and roster continuity—-we have neither. This idea that you can just buy the best roster and win every season is not feasible. Sometimes, you may be Michigan and be amazing. Sometimes, you may be St. John’s or Kentucky and stink. Any good coach is going to want to get to a point where you’re not relying on the portal for rentals. Having good players stay in the program should help you there. It looks to me like there may be a rift between the Oweh’s of the world and the Aberdeen’s of the world and there’s not a good reason to believe that couldn’t have been the case no matter what name you flipped X player for. This is the part of the equation we don’t consider or think about much. You didn’t see Bruce Pearl starting 3-5 brand new players every year at Auburn. You don’t see Hurley doing it. You didn’t see Golden to it last year. My hunch is whoever wins the title this year will be someone with roster and minutes continuity. I believe in that fully —- I’ve never had a remotely decent counter argument other than “this is what I feel” or some wild hypothetical that we can’t test.

 

[R.O.T.Muckinfush]

Disagree. The portal is going to cause greater variability. This level of roster turnover is going to be a challenge no matter who the coach is. You hope Pope turns it around and we get to a point where we don’t have to rely on adding a bunch of unknowns to the roster, this is the part of the equation I wish we considered more.

Well now everyone is paying the players not just the blue bloods.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Well now everyone is paying the players not just the blue bloods.

Agreed. What’s your point?

 

[R.O.T.Muckinfush]

Agreed. What’s your point?

Much more difficult to just dominate the competition than it used to be.

 

[Anony Moose]

Much more difficult to just dominate the competition than it used to be.

How is Duke still doing it?

 

[Anony Moose]

Disagree. The portal is going to cause greater variability. This level of roster turnover is going to be a challenge no matter who the coach is. You hope Pope turns it around and we get to a point where we don’t have to rely on adding a bunch of unknowns to the roster, this is the part of the equation I wish we considered more.

Brother, I didn’t say anything about how much we spent. You could spend $256M on a roster and if they don’t like each other, it’s gonna be a bad product. This is a reason why you hear the best coaches always talking about minutes continuity and roster continuity—-we have neither. This idea that you can just buy the best roster and win every season is not feasible. Sometimes, you may be Michigan and be amazing. Sometimes, you may be St. John’s or Kentucky and stink. Any good coach is going to want to get to a point where you’re not relying on the portal for rentals. Having good players stay in the program should help you there. It looks to me like there may be a rift between the Oweh’s of the world and the Aberdeen’s of the world and there’s not a good reason to believe that couldn’t have been the case no matter what name you flipped X player for. This is the part of the equation we don’t consider or think about much. You didn’t see Bruce Pearl starting 3-5 brand new players every year at Auburn. You don’t see Hurley doing it. You didn’t see Golden to it last year. My hunch is whoever wins the title this year will be someone with roster and minutes continuity. I believe in that fully —- I’ve never had a remotely decent counter argument other than “this is what I feel” or some wild hypothetical that we can’t test.

All of that falls on Pope. He vetted them, he assembled them, he is the one who is supposed to be motivating and coaching them. Many other coaches aren't having these issues. Why are UK and Pope?

 

[UKBB4Ever]

That Joe B team never quit.

 

[UKJenning]

Disagree. The portal is going to cause greater variability. This level of roster turnover is going to be a challenge no matter who the coach is. You hope Pope turns it around and we get to a point where we don’t have to rely on adding a bunch of unknowns to the roster, this is the part of the equation I wish we considered more.

We retained 4 key players from last season and 3 of them are sucking. 3 were staring before Garrison started coming off the bench. It’s absolutely inexcusable!

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

All of that falls on Pope. He vetted them, he assembled them, he is the one who is supposed to be motivating and coaching them. Many other coaches aren't having these issues. Why are UK and Pope?

I already literally said why in the same thread. The less minutes and roster continuity, the greater the variance. Every portal haul or recruiting haul that you’re relying on to majorly contribute immediately is a DICE ROLL. Your number one player could be as successful as Anthony Davis. Your number one player could fail as spectacularly as Skal Labissierre or Justin Edwards. On the other hand, you might bring in a portal haul with proven studs like Bruce Hopkins and Ian Jackson who don’t mesh well as a team (with a proven HOF coach) or you may put together a portal haul like Morez Johnson, Yaxel and Cadeau and beat teams by ridiculous margins. Ultimately, this has been proven not to cross the finish line. Come back to me in April and quote this back at me if Michigan wins the title. They won’t.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

We retained 4 key players from last season and 3 of them are sucking. 3 were staring before Garrison started coming off the bench. It’s absolutely inexcusable!

Yes, I’m not saying that every returnee is going to succeed for the same reason though. We have very, very little minutes continuity for our roster. Don’t believe me? Ask Google how Kentucky’s 2026 roster is doing compared to the rest of the NCAA in this area?

 

[Anony Moose]

I already literally said why in the same thread. The less minutes and roster continuity, the greater the variance. Every portal haul or recruiting haul that you’re relying on to majorly contribute immediately is a DICE ROLL. Your number one player could be as successful as Anthony Davis. Your number one player could fail as spectacularly as Skal Labissierre or Justin Edwards. On the other hand, you might bring in a portal haul with proven studs like Bruce Hopkins and Ian Jackson who don’t mesh well as a team (with a proven HOF coach) or you may put together a portal haul like Morez Johnson, Yaxel and Cadeau and beat teams by ridiculous margins. Ultimately, this has been proven not to cross the finish line. Come back to me in April and quote this back at me if Michigan wins the title. They won’t.

That's not different than taking any player, ever. It's always a gamble.

Again, that is on the coach. He evaluated, recruited, offered and accepted that player. He has 0 excuses.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

That's not different than taking any player, ever. It's always a gamble.

Again, that is on the coach. He evaluated, recruited, offered and accepted that player. He has 0 excuses.

This is what makes it hard to have a discussion. Every discussion no matter how nuanced ends up becoming a “pick a side” deal with defensive positioning. I’m not talking one way or another about how this is not ultimately going to point at a coach. I’m speaking in broad terms —- if we want to have year in and year out success, we need minutes continuity and roster continuity. I don’t care if the coach is Mark Pope or if you end up bringing in Bruce Pearl, whatever. Makes zero difference.

 

[Anony Moose]

This is what makes it hard to have a discussion. Every discussion no matter how nuanced ends up becoming a “pick a side” deal with defensive positioning. I’m not talking one way or another about how this is not ultimately going to point at a coach. I’m speaking in broad terms —- if we want to have year in and year out success, we need minutes continuity and roster continuity. I don’t care if the coach is Mark Pope or if you end up bringing in Bruce Pearl, whatever. Makes zero difference.

Great! And I am telling you that's all the responsibility of the head coach. You can cry, whine and spin it however. It's still on the HC.

Most of his own ******* players didn't want to follow him from BYU, so not sure how a HC gets continuity when his players don't seem to want to continue playing for him.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Great! And I am telling you that's all the responsibility of the head coach. You can cry, whine and spin it however. It's still on the HC.

Most of his own ******* players didn't want to follow him from BYU, so not sure how a HC gets continuity when his players don't seem to want to continue playing for him.

Ok buddy. Again, can’t discuss general topics because it’s pro-Pope vs anti-Pope. What happened to common ground and having faithful dialogue? Is that too much to ask?

 

[Anony Moose]

Ok buddy. Again, can’t discuss general topics because it’s pro-Pope vs anti-Pope. What happened to common ground and having faithful dialogue? Is that too much to ask?

I'm discussing it with you. You just don't seem to approve of my part of the discussion.

I'm literally finding common ground by pointing out his players don't want to continue with him. I am literally agreeing that we need continuity, but that Pope isn't really one to bring it.

 

[Woodrow24]

Disagree. The portal is going to cause greater variability. This level of roster turnover is going to be a challenge no matter who the coach is. You hope Pope turns it around and we get to a point where we don’t have to rely on adding a bunch of unknowns to the roster, this is the part of the equation I wish we considered more.

After a coach spends 22 million dollars on a roster, I would hope that they could build a team better than this one. Our returning players from last year haven’t improved at all. Every major program has to deal with NIL, so that’s not an excuse. Come up with all the excuses you want for Pope if it makes you feel better.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

I'm discussing it with you. You just don't seem to approve of my part of the discussion.

I'm literally finding common ground by pointing out his players don't want to continue with him. I am literally agreeing that we need continuity, but that Pope isn't really one to bring it.

Ok if you agree minutes continuity (staying healthy) and roster continuity are important, then I agree with you. Regardless of who the coach is.

 

[Anon1679859502]

he was literally able to handpick who he wanted with 22mil and somehow picked the least talented kentucky team of the last 2 decades

He should have never been offered the job. He doesn’t know how to put a roster together which is very important along with coaching obviously

 

[R.O.T.Muckinfush]

How is Duke still doing it?

Great coaching.

 

[akaukswoosh]

He has nothing cooking for next year.

That's the ugly icing on a poorly baked cake. Not good.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

After a coach spends 22 million dollars on a roster, I would hope that they could build a team better than this one. Our returning players from last year haven’t improved at all. Every major program has to deal with NIL, so that’s not an excuse. Come up with all the excuses you want for Pope if it makes you feel better.

Don’t think that was the point of my post at all actually. You’re allowed to assume whatever you’d like however.

 

[Anony Moose]

Ok if you agree minutes continuity (staying healthy) and roster continuity are important, then I agree with you. Regardless of who the coach is.

Of course continuity is important, as is talent. We have regression from players that bring continuity sans maybe Chandler, and our new players aren't talented. We have no recruits for next year. I fully expect several from this current team to hit the portal, some for 2nd and 3rd times, after this season. I feel like if Pope is given another year, he will have no choice but to replace most of his current assistants, which will further cause continuity issues for that season. It's a complete mess.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Of course continuity is important, as is talent. We have regression from players that bring continuity sans maybe Chandler, and our new players aren't talented. We have no recruits for next year. I fully expect several from this current team to hit the portal, some for 2nd and 3rd times, after this season. I feel like if Pope is given another year, he will have no choice but to replace most of his current assistants, which will further cause continuity issues for that season. It's a complete mess.

You aren’t wrong. This is why I believe Pope will have to go if things don’t turn around very quickly. I couldn’t care less about an incoming recruiting class IF I knew Pope could keep these guys on a positive trajectory to progress and stay. That will not happen if there isn’t a come to Jesus soon, so I’m good with firing Pope if we lose to IU. No need to wait at that point. We could debate all day whether that’s fair, but it’s dealing with reality in an honest fashion.

 

[Anony Moose]

You aren’t wrong. This is why I believe Pope will have to go if things don’t turn around very quickly. I couldn’t care less about an incoming recruiting class IF I knew Pope could keep these guys on a positive trajectory to progress and stay. That will not happen if there isn’t a come to Jesus soon, so I’m good with firing Pope if we lose to IU. No need to wait at that point. We could debate all day whether that’s fair, but it’s dealing with reality in an honest fashion.

Honestly, Moreno and Chandler are the only 2 you keep off this team that currently plays. Obviously the other 2 that are redshirting can stay, but I wouldn't be shocked if Hawthorne left after basically being forced to redshirt. If JQ is trying to stay, then he can too.

Otherwise, clean house.

 

[TFCat11]

Haha… Pope literally folded like a cheap suit when asked about Boogie’s social media comment!

That dude (Pope) is the quintessential poster boy for Low-T! There’s ZERO chance he’s ever raising his voice, or getting fired up over no heart or effort! He’s COMPLETELY out of his league at UK!

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Honestly, Moreno and Chandler are the only 2 you keep off this team that currently plays. Obviously the other 2 that are redshirting can stay, but I wouldn't be shocked if Hawthorne left after basically being forced to redshirt. If JQ is trying to stay, then he can too.

Otherwise, clean house.

Too early to say this, but I get you. We didn’t see Chandler show anything until the entire season was near over last year.

 

[Anony Moose]

Too early to say this, but I get you. We didn’t see Chandler show anything until the entire season was near over last year.

He also took 2 years off to do a mission trip building houses in 3rd world countries. Do anyone of the others have that excuse?

All but 2 of our players were playing CBB last year, several of them in the SEC. The other 2 were HS players who went up against top talent regularly. They have 0 excuses.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

He also took 2 years off to do a mission trip building houses in 3rd world countries. Do anyone of the others have that excuse?

That’s only one reason of a million that a player gets off to a slow start. Not promising any of the others are the next MJ. Too early.

 

[Anony Moose]

That’s only one reason of a million that a player gets off to a slow start. Not promising any of the others are the next MJ. Too early.

Ohh, so what reasons are ours?

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Ohh, so what reasons are ours?

Huh? Well, let me check my crystal ball lol. None of us know if it will happen one way or the other. Nor do we know what reasons or lack thereof would affect players on this team. Are you asking me to guess to appease you? I didn’t predict any certain player to do anything, simply waiting to see what they produce. Would it make you feel better if I rendered some entirely arbitrary hypotheticals? Here you go:

Hypothetical One:
Suppose Kam Williams recognizes he has been pressing too much and overshooting many of his jumpers. He simply settles in and relaxes after making some and his confidence improves.

Hypothetical Two:
Suppose Andrija Jelavic begins to cut more, realizing there is ample opportunity to finish. These easy points contribute to him feeling his game out throughout the year.

Not predicting anything, but pretending you or I know anything about the future would be a fool’s errand. All we can do is hope.

 

[JHBr]

UK went through a 13-13 season in 1973 -74. Did not make the tourney.
In ‘74 after a brutal and embarrassing 24 point lose to IU they were getting beat by UNC and Coach Hall was getting questioned. He finally got fed up and went off in that game. Changed the season and his trajectory.

Learn from it Mark Pope! No players bigger than your program. If drastic changes are needed .. make them.

Kentucky 90, North Carolina 78 on Dec. 9, 1974: Coming off a 98-74 loss at Indiana that featured IU coach Bob Knight’s infamous slap of UK coach Joe B. Hall on the back of the head, the Cats fell behind the Tar Heels early at Freedom Hall in Louisville. Hall benched his starters until they informed the coach they were ready to play. And they did so with a vengeance. The win turned around a season in which the Cats made it all the way to the national title game before losing to UCLA.

I attended that game in Freedom Hall. Jimmy Dan Conner went off big time. If memory serves me he had over 30 points, probably would have had more than 40 if there was a three point line. Awesome game!

 

[Woodrow24]

Disagree. The portal is going to cause greater variability. This level of roster turnover is going to be a challenge no matter who the coach is. You hope Pope turns it around and we get to a point where we don’t have to rely on adding a bunch of unknowns to the roster, this is the part of the equation I wish we considered more.

Adding “unknowns” to the roster is going to happen regardless. Having better scouting and a better recruiting strategy is imperative moving forward. Have to adapt to how things have changed recently in that aspect.