I'm not familiar enough to know the allegations and timeline for Bonds but his numbers definitely jumped once he went to the Giants.
Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, and Sosa
- Thread starter J_Dee
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In 1926, Cobb was almost banned from the game after it was exposed that he'd bet on at least one fixed game that he played in. He survived the scandal by the skin of his teeth, but it finished his 22-year career in Detroit.
I go back and forth on whether or not I think he should be in the Hall of Fame. Betting aside, even if a lot of Al Stump's stories about Cobb are mostly fiction, Cobb was still an all-around pretty awful guy.
The only reason Pete Rose is not in the Hall of Fame is Pete Rose. Period. He was shown all the evidence against him and was given the offer of resigning and stepping away from the game in return for MLB burying the truth and it never seeing the light of day. He declined, thinking he was bigger than the game. F him.
I think this was their last year. It definitely was for bonds.
Another aspect not yet mentioned about bonds was his abrasive rapport with sports writers. It isn't fair, but that greatly cost him too
Dude, does your computer not have a Google machine??
By the time he was 27, as a Pittsburgh Pirate, he had already won 2 MVP awards and was unquestionably the best all around player in baseball.
"his first several years were good." lol
Yeah, that's kind of an understatement. And FYI, it's widely rumored/reported that he started using PEDs around the time he moved to San Francisco. That was the start of his relationship with Greg Anderson/BALCO/etc. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that he seethed with jealousy over the fame that Sammy Sosa/Mark McGwire received during the 1998 season.
I grew up a Bonds fan because who didn't love watching HRs? I finally got the chance in my adulthood to go watch him play when the Giants came to Cincinnati in 2004. I got seats with my old man in left field so we could be by Bonds. This obnoxious Reds fan chanted "Balco" all nine innings when Bonds was in the outfield.
Not really related, I know but man, I hate fans like that. You're annoying everyone else just as much as you're annoying Bonds.
Are you anti-Juice guys as easily triggered by the drug of choice — “greenies” — that so many baseball players used in the 60’s and early 70’s? Including many legendary HOFers.
What about the illegal steroid use by a handful of teams in the NFL in the 70’s. I mean, the Steelers were the laughingstock of the league, and had been for decades, until Chuck Noll and his steroid doctor left the west coast to go to Pittsburgh. Suddenly the laughingstock Steelers won four Super Bowls in 8 years.
There are many examples of players and franchises cheating, throughout sports history. But for whatever reason, this one PED era of baseball is the only one continuing to punish players for it.
What about the illegal steroid use by a handful of teams in the NFL in the 70’s. I mean, the Steelers were the laughingstock of the league, and had been for decades, until Chuck Noll and his steroid doctor left the west coast to go to Pittsburgh. Suddenly the laughingstock Steelers won four Super Bowls in 8 years.
There are many examples of players and franchises cheating, throughout sports history. But for whatever reason, this one PED era of baseball is the only one continuing to punish players for it.
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Yes, my machine has Google. Does yours? Here are his stats in 1986, 87, 88, and 89, his first 4 years playing.
1986 BA .223 HR 16 RBI 48 SO 102 OBP .330 SLG .416
1987 BA .261 HR 25 RBI 59 SO 88 OBP .329 SLG .492
1988 BA .283 HR 24 RBI 58 SO 82 OBP .368 SLG .491
1989 BA .248 HR 19 RBI 58 SO 93 OBP ..351 SLG .426
Starting in 1990, all of those stats take a major jump and remain there over the next 10 - 15 years.
1990 BA .301 HR 33 RBI 114 SO 83 OBP .406 SLG .565
All I'm saying is that those first 4 years wouldn't jump out as someone who is a lock for the hall of fame. He either drastically improved or he started doping. I remember watching him play those first several years and thinking he is no where near as good as his dad. Then all of a sudden he was great. Maybe he just worked hard and got better, but I'm skeptical, especially for someone we know used PEDs at some point in their career.
Cobb was pretty miserable as a player, but as he became older he mellowed out and helped many down on their luck former players. He got in on the ground floor with General Motors and Coca Cola and became a very wealthy man.
I think it's pretty obvious when bonds starting doing illegal stuff. He went from Eric Davis to big poppa pump in a pretty short span. He was a 30/30 guy that suddenly couldn't even bother to hustle out an infield grounder.
I think prior to that any balco relation, on its own, is not incriminating.
I think prior to that any balco relation, on its own, is not incriminating.
You got me there cat_in_the_hat. Yes, in his first FOUR years in MLB, he didn't put up Hall of Fame numbers. That's a pretty hysterical and very arbitrary cutoff, because here's what he did after that...
year 5 = MVP
year 6 = 2nd in MVP voting
year 7 = MVP
year 8 = MVP
I mean, jesus christ dude. I despise Barry Bonds, but you can't take his first 4 years in the bigs and just chop them off there. Most guys don't even make it to the majors by the age of 23-24, yet he had already established himself as one of the premier players in the sport by then. By his mid-20s, he was easily the best all around player in baseball. He was fantastic even before he likely started taking steroids, and that's pretty much the universal opinion of everyone baseball fan I know.
I don't particularly like Bonds, but his WS performance was the most awesome and intimidating I've ever seen. You could not throw him any kind of pitch in any location over the plate or he would hit a HR. No matter the count, no matter the location, no matter the pitch... it was going yard if he swung at it.
If Bonds isn't in the HOF then just shut it down as it is pointless. The BS with Pete already had me soured on them anyway.
If Bonds isn't in the HOF then just shut it down as it is pointless. The BS with Pete already had me soured on them anyway.
I may be incorrect, but weren't there more pitchers busted for PEDs than hitters? Seems like I read that but it may have been an early stat that reversed itself along the way. If I'm Barry Bonds or Mark MacGuire or Rafael Palmeiro et al and some bum I used to hit lasers off of is all of a sudden blowing 98 mph heat past me and I hear he's juicing, you can bet your *** I'd start, too. Doesn't make it right but I can certainly see the logic in that reaction, if true.
Also, MLB played a big role in the steroids era. They completely turned a blind eye to it when pretty much everyone knew it was rampant throughout the league. Tacitly encouraged it, from one point of view. Now, they're all holier than thou and 'how dare you besmirch the game' when MLB made a ton of money and recovered from the missed WS due to a strike by guys hitting a ton of HRs. Sort of like the scene in Casablanca where the head of police is 'shocked, shocked, I tell you' that there's gambling going on while the guy running the roulette table is handing him his winnings.
Also, MLB played a big role in the steroids era. They completely turned a blind eye to it when pretty much everyone knew it was rampant throughout the league. Tacitly encouraged it, from one point of view. Now, they're all holier than thou and 'how dare you besmirch the game' when MLB made a ton of money and recovered from the missed WS due to a strike by guys hitting a ton of HRs. Sort of like the scene in Casablanca where the head of police is 'shocked, shocked, I tell you' that there's gambling going on while the guy running the roulette table is handing him his winnings.
I'm not trying to get you. In order to support the idea that he would be a hall of fame member without PEDs you have to try and establish his production before and after PED use. The four year cutoff isn't arbitrary at all. It represents the point when his production took a dramatic increase. In his first four years he was a 260 hitter who averaged 21 home runs and 56 RBIs. In year five he added 40 points to his batting average, hit 57% more home runs, and more than doubled his RBI production. That became his normal production after that point. 1990 seems like a logical cutoff point to try and determine the if there is validity to the idea that he would have been a hall of fame member without PEDs. Did PEDs contribute to the dramatic increase in production in 1990? I have no idea. But I don't see any other points in his career where his stats made such a dramatic jump so it seems logical that 1990 may have been when he started doping. I don't think anyone can really answer that question other than him, but don't act like there isn't any logic in looking at his stats prior to 1990 and after. There was a major improvement in his production starting in 1990 that is not typical of the improvement most players make. That alone isn't proof of the impact PEDs had on his career, but I don't think anyone can say for sure he would have been a hall of fame player without PEDs because we don't really know when he started using and we don't know why he suddenly made that dramatic improvement in 1990 and thereafter.
You got me there cat_in_the_hat. Yes, in his first FOUR years in MLB, he didn't put up Hall of Fame numbers. That's a pretty hysterical and very arbitrary cutoff, because here's what he did after that...
year 5 = MVP
year 6 = 2nd in MVP voting
year 7 = MVP
year 8 = MVP
I mean, jesus christ dude. I despise Barry Bonds, but you can't take his first 4 years in the bigs and just chop them off there. Most guys don't even make it to the majors by the age of 23-24, yet he had already established himself as one of the premier players in the sport by then. By his mid-20s, he was easily the best all around player in baseball. He was fantastic even before he likely started taking steroids, and that's pretty much the universal opinion of everyone baseball fan I know.
If you look at comparatives for Schilling, his career trumps guys like Roy Halladay, who was a first ballot selection. Granted, I think Halladay got a lot of sympathy vote since he died, but Schilling's career is better by any objective measure. Ironically, even though the voters were their typical holier than thou selves for his first 9 years, had he not requested to be removed from the ballot last year and just been quiet, he'd have gotten in this year. He is indisputably one of the best playoff pitchers of all time and his regular season metrics are more than enough on their own to get him in.
Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time. He belongs. Clemens is one of the top 5 pitchers of all time. He belongs. Sosa and McGwire are different cases in that Sosa's production came almost solely due to roids and McGwire was a good power hitter and not good at anything else.
The fact that Ortiz got in on the first ballot with a documented positive test on record is outrageous. His .286 career BA is middling, especially for a DH.
Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time. He belongs. Clemens is one of the top 5 pitchers of all time. He belongs. Sosa and McGwire are different cases in that Sosa's production came almost solely due to roids and McGwire was a good power hitter and not good at anything else.
The fact that Ortiz got in on the first ballot with a documented positive test on record is outrageous. His .286 career BA is middling, especially for a DH.
Bonds and Clemons are the two best players from their era and both should be in the HOF. And let's leep in mind that during this era, steroids were not illegal, the league wasn't testing and majortiy of players were using them.
Schilling probably should go as well. His win total is very low for a HOF pitcher, but his other stats are good enough to overcome that. The biggest problem isn't his politics. There are tons of right-wing players in the Hall. The problem is he was a prick to just about everyone, but especially to the people who would be voting for him. Turning off the voter base is never going to work out for you.
Even with the juice, Sosa doesn't have Hall of fame career numbers.
Schilling probably should go as well. His win total is very low for a HOF pitcher, but his other stats are good enough to overcome that. The biggest problem isn't his politics. There are tons of right-wing players in the Hall. The problem is he was a prick to just about everyone, but especially to the people who would be voting for him. Turning off the voter base is never going to work out for you.
Even with the juice, Sosa doesn't have Hall of fame career numbers.
This. Curt didn't start the crazy political stuff until 2015. He wasn't getting voting traction before that despite being one of the best postseason pitchers of all time (11-2, 2.23 ERA, bloody sock game, etc.).