Brian Flores suing NFL and several teams

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Vismund

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When 90% of coaches give the same 5 canned answers to every question, I don't see why the person giving the answers matters (in regards to if they are white/black). Hell, we parade a ton of black players out for the media every week and let them speak. Mike Tomlin talks to the media with an edge just like every other coach. If they are doing it for PR reasons, which I doubt, that would be easy to spot as (somewhat) racist.
 
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Flores is a NYC guy and loved the Giants. I really think he just went off the deep end on this one because he didn't get the HC job. Hell, a lot of Patriots fans were hoping he'd be the Belichick replacement.
 
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LineSkiCat14

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When 90% of coaches give the same 5 canned answers to every question, I don't see why the person giving the answers matters (in regards to if they are white/black). Hell, we parade a ton of black players out for the media every week and let them speak. Mike Tomlin talks to the media with an edge just like every other coach. If they are doing it for PR reasons, which I doubt, that would be easy to spot as (somewhat) racist.

I mean IDK what else it could be. The owners can't be "actual" racists.. they're fine with their entire organization being made up of African-Americans. The only other answer is that it's purely coincidental that we slid back a bit by only have one black head coach currently, and that this isn't a big deal where the number of black coaches will go back to where it was (or higher)
 
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Fact_Checker

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You do know the GM of Miami is black and hated Flores's guts and wanted him out, right? Can you acknowledge that? Or are you just going to call him an Uncle Tom?
What part of anything I said involved the Dolphins GM? Did you read my post?
 

JBHolmesfan

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Jackson coached for historically bad teams/owners who took a a chance on him. The makeup of his 8-8 Oakland team could have been much better in year two. They instead hired an unproven Defensive coordinator who then went 8-28. Reggie McKenzie had no business being a GM. He was also quoted as being pissed that Jackson traded for Palmer and spent too much draft collateral to get him. That was Oakland trying to be a bit woke in it's first big hire at GM. They then proceeded to let Jon Gruden run the franchise into the ground with a fake GM for the next several seasons.

Caldwell was more than fine in Detroit, he was the best coach they've had in two decades. Caldwell also lost a controversial game in 14 vs Dallas and lost his starting QB late in the season in his only other trip to the playoffs. There's a reason he's a legitimate head coaching candidate even today.

Steve Wilkes was given nothing to work with. He was basically a placeholder until they could hire someone else. If I recall correctly, didn't they just draft Josh Rosen and trade away several important pieces? While it sucks, the same thing just happened to David Cullen as well.

White dude's not lasting as long in the league seems off to me for some reason though. I do know many retire earlier (Keuchly comes to mind) for health reasons but I also think that many of the white dude's in the league are QB's who tend to have longer careers than, say, a running back or linebacker.

Either way, there are examples of black coaches getting treated differently and it's hard for me to say that it's racism. I'm not one to quickly pull that card. The difficulty of this example is that the sample size is relatively small. Perhaps the least talked about example is Mike Tomlin in Pittsburgh. I don't like the Rooney rule, it's the reason this whole thing even happened to be honest, but at least he sticks by his guns on his preferences. If the Giants would have just completed the token interview first, I feel slimy writing that, this wouldn't have been an issue.

The Broncos thing about being hungover is kind of a non-starter to me. Too much he said, she said there.
To me, I view it more as NFL teams fire their coaches all the time regardless of race. Are white coaches given longer leashes than black coaches? Possibly, but I’m not sure. Jack Del Rio got fired 1 season removed from ending a 13 year playoff drought for the Raiders. Doug Pederson had a 4 year stretch where he won a Super Bowl, and 2 division titles and he got fired.

Rich Bisaccia took over for Gruden this year and led them to the playoffs. Vegas hardly even considered him for the head coaching job.

The average tenure in the NFL is 3 years for a reason. Teams aren’t patient with their coaches and GMs will give them the axe before the owner gives the GM the axe.

Joe Judge was given 2 years in New York. Do we really think they went 10-23 with him because he was that bad? Not saying he was good, but teams with an awful o line and a QB like Daniel Jones don’t tend to win very many games regardless of the coach. The Giants lost primarily because they don’t have a lot of talent.

Matt Nagy was a terrible coach, but that GM mortgaged their future to trade for Khalil Mack and Mitch Trubisky and then gave up more draft capital to get Fields. They have an aging defense and limited offensive weapons. The GM is more to blame than Nagy and the GM is more to blame then the coaches in most of these situations IMO.
 

Louis_Skunt

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Did you read anything about this?
I did and its all ESPN wants to talk about today. Strangely, they complain all day while the majority of the NFL is black. Even all the hosts on ESPN are black.
What do you want, an entire black NFL, will that be sufficient?
 
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Louis_Skunt

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So nice to see all the people that defend corruption in here. This guy is just calling out a corrupt owner and a corrupt system. The NFL Owners are so racist when you force them to interview black guys they show up hungover and disheveled to the interview and negotiate offers with the white guy while your in the waiting room for your interview. Not only that when they finally hire a black guy they offer him $100,000 a game to lose on purpose. No racism to see here. Nope. No sir.
You really think an owner would rather take a white coach and lose, over a black coach and win?? Ridiculous. People dont give a chit what color the coach is if they win.

Speaking of racism, why dont i see more white running backs or wide receivers? The vast majority of the NFL is BLACK....but you claim racism? You'll never be happy.
 
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Cawood86_rivals

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This is the epitome of shooting yourself in the foot. The are plenty of vacancies in the NFL right now and you decide to do this. Why on earth now?

I actually thought the Dolphins firing him was a bad move, but now I see why if this is his attitude. My goodness. Nobody bats an eye when a team hires a black head coach or a black coach in any capacity. Several teams have black QBs. The best guy gets the job, or is supposed to. That wasn't always the caes, and it was wrong.

The NFL has tons of bad ideas and policies. But the fact that black head coaches are common is a great thing. Same thing for all aspects of sports. Nobody should be limited because their skin color.

Flores got some bad advice or has a problem beyond having bad ideas.
 
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Ryan Lemonds Hair

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My daughter teaches in Memphis and has been told on several occasions that the school system needs to "quit hiring little white girls" and that "white girls don't know how to teach black kids". There is no way someone would get away with that if the roles were reversed.
 

JoeSwag

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I think there has to be a little bit of PR in this, in that owners are a bit more apprehensive to have a black head coach as the one speaking to media and the fans. Not saying that's the only factor... but that is really the only thing (duties aside) that seperates the HC from all the other staff.. HC talks to media, the rest of the staff dont
Well, when you fire a white guy, no one bats an eye. No one cries foul. Every company knows what’s coming if you have to fire a black person even with cause, you know what the claim is going to be. You know others will jump to automatically believing it’s because of racism.

Media certainly doesn’t question it. You won’t find anyone on ESPN or any other major network that will pump the brakes on automatically adopting Flores’ claims as the gospel.

I would never hire Flores after this. There’s been much more talented guys than him who have been fired. Guys who won Super Bowls or got to Super Bowls. Know what they did? Went and became coordinators somewhere else and then got a head coaching job or got another head coaching job when there was a vacancy. I’m sure he would have had one at worse next year but not now.
 
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JoeSwag

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This is the epitome of shooting yourself in the foot. The are plenty of vacancies in the NFL right now and you decide to do this. Why on earth now?

I actually thought the Dolphins firing him was a bad move, but now I see why if this is his attitude. My goodness. Nobody bats an eye when a team hires a black head coach or a black coach in any capacity. Several teams have black QBs. The best guy gets the job, or is supposed to. That wasn't always the caes, and it was wrong.

The NFL has tons of bad ideas and policies. But the fact that black head coaches are common is a great thing. Same thing for all aspects of sports. Nobody should be limited because their skin color.

Flores got some bad advice or has a problem beyond having bad ideas.
I just find it comical that in a league that’s 70% one demographic and in a league where organizations give chance after chance to guys who get arrested for drugs, beat women, accused of rape, and breaking other laws that somehow they don’t get a “fair shake” because the majority of head coaches don’t look like them. 😂 Never mind the coordinators. It’s real important the head coach has a specific race. Because that’s what matters not if they’re actually qualified.
 
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Fact_Checker

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You really think an owner would rather take a white coach and lose, over a black coach and win?? Ridiculous. People dont give a chit what color the coach is if they win.

Speaking of racism, why dont i see more white running backs or wide receivers? The vast majority of the NFL is BLACK....but you claim racism? You'll never be happy.
Sure but at the interview phase most of these people have never had a job so it's a prediction of what they will do once hired. I think any prediction an individual is likely to be riddled with their own preconceived notions and biases.

As for RB, it is a job given based solely on performance and every single RB in the NFL has reems of historical performance for anyone to see. Not only that every single team has 6 or 7 guys competing for that starting spot and every single one of them was measured for speed and strength at the Combine. It's totally different.

A head coach rarely has experience in head coaching so you don't know what you're going to get. When there is uncertainty people lean on their gut instinct. Hiring a head coach has a lot of uncertainty. Hiring a RB has very little uncertainty comparitively.

Also very few inexperienced black coaches get hired compared to white coaches so when you look at performance of coaches that have experience but are not currently employed that pool is overwhelmingly white so there is some historical systemic stuff working against black candidates too.
 

UKWildcats1987

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The whole NFL system is stupid. You should hire based on the best candidate regardless of race and there should be no requirement to interview a minority if the clear best candidate is there.
 
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Fact_Checker

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I did and its all ESPN wants to talk about today. Strangely, they complain all day while the majority of the NFL is black. Even all the hosts on ESPN are black.
What do you want, an entire black NFL, will that be sufficient?
I don't think that is what anyone wants. I think Flores is saying he would like black head coaching candidates to have a fair shot. Not just be a token candidate on every job search. That's demeaning.

Let's frame it this way. What if everyone at some point in the past had a preconceived notion that people from EKY are just stupid hillbillies. Then someone else came along that felt sorry for them and said let's make everyone interview at least one person from Eastern Kentucky for any good job they have to fill. It didn't change anyone's opinion of the fact that everyone from EKY is a stupid hillbilly so many of the jobs had already hired someone else and then interviewed the person who appeared to be the least stupid hillbilly from EKY.

Every 4 or 5 years someone actually hired the hillbilly who had been being picked for job interviews when they realized their preconceived notions we're wrong. So some hillbillies got decent jobs. When one hillbilly got hired the next least stupid hillbilly would take their place as the token interviewee until they finally got a serious interview and made the right impression. How do you think people from EKY would feel about that?
 
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Louis_Skunt

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I don't think that is what anyone wants. I think Flores is saying he would like black head coaching candidates to have a fair shot. Not just be a token candidate on every job search. That's demeaning.

Let's frame it this way. What if everyone at some point in the past had a preconceived notion that people from EKY are just stupid hillbillies. Then someone else came along that felt sorry for them and said let's make everyone interview at least one person from Eastern Kentucky for any good job they have to fill. It didn't change anyone's opinion of the fact that everyone from EKY is a stupid hillbilly so many of the jobs had already hired someone else and then interviewed the person who appeared to be the least stupid hillbilly from EKY.

Every 4 or 5 years someone actually hired the hillbilly who had been being picked for job interviews when they realized their preconceived notions we're wrong. So some hillbillies got decent jobs. When one hillbilly got hired the next least stupid hillbilly would take their place as the token interviewee until they finally got a serious interview and made the right impression. How do you think people from EKY would feel about that?
So you think Flores didnt get a fair shot because he's black? On what grounds, just because he said so?

Teams are notorious for tanking to improve their draft status, its been discussed for 20 years in all sports.

This is very easy. If you win, nobody gives a chit where you're from. If you lose, you're going to get fired. Owners are not going to sacrifice winning just to take a white guy. But keep screaming race, it usually works no matter the circumstances.
 

Louis_Skunt

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Sure but at the interview phase most of these people have never had a job so it's a prediction of what they will do once hired. I think any prediction an individual is likely to be riddled with their own preconceived notions and biases.

As for RB, it is a job given based solely on performance and every single RB in the NFL has reems of historical performance for anyone to see. Not only that every single team has 6 or 7 guys competing for that starting spot and every single one of them was measured for speed and strength at the Combine. It's totally different.

A head coach rarely has experience in head coaching so you don't know what you're going to get. When there is uncertainty people lean on their gut instinct. Hiring a head coach has a lot of uncertainty. Hiring a RB has very little uncertainty comparitively.

Also very few inexperienced black coaches get hired compared to white coaches so when you look at performance of coaches that have experience but are not currently employed that pool is overwhelmingly white so there is some historical systemic stuff working against black candidates too.
Lets cut the bull. Black guys have been better running backs and wide receivers. Is that racist to admit blacks are better at a certain position?
 

JoeSwag

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Haslam firing back at Jackson. Says his claims are completely fabricated and that Jackson has never taken blame for anything and points fingers at everyone else.

Funny how media talks about “spreading misinformation” yet doesn’t bat an eye at not vetting anything before spreading it and buying into it (We could go on and on about how they do this daily politically but that’s another thread).

If you think the players who are playing the game give a crap about a draft pick, you are mistaken. Those guys all want to win. They’re fighting for paychecks, roster spots, and wins.

For those playing the race card as usual, if these teams were so “racist” they’d never have got the shot in the first place. Most are pretty tired at this exhausted accusation any time they don’t get what they want or there’s some failure. It should be white noise as there is no possible appeasement anyway and the strategy is obvious.

You know what’s so crazy is the league is just so racist that teams have been chasing Tampa’s Leftwich for jobs.
 
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Cleisthenes

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When all the bluster is removed I am really shocked at how utterly weak and toothless this lawsuit is. Should get tossed out on its head unless politics pushes its way further into our crumbling legal system.
 

Fact_Checker

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So you think Flores didnt get a fair shot because he's black? On what grounds, just because he said so?

Teams are notorious for tanking to improve their draft status, its been discussed for 20 years in all sports.

This is very easy. If you win, nobody gives a chit where you're from. If you lose, you're going to get fired. Owners are not going to sacrifice winning just to take a white guy. But keep screaming race, it usually works no matter the circumstances.

I think he thinks black coaches in general don't get a fair shot. Also winning is what matters to fans and fans bring the money so winning keeps coaches in their job. Flores was offered under the table money to lose games. Why? Because you have to get paid extra to basically tank your job away when the fans turn on you. He didn't do that even though the team traded away all his good players in his first season. Then with a **** roster he had back to back winning seasons at a franchise that historically has been poorly run and they fired him. I think claiming unfairness is not entirely unreasonable here.
 

Fact_Checker

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Lets cut the bull. Black guys have been better running backs and wide receivers. Is that racist to admit blacks are better at a certain position?
Let's put this in terms that make more sense for the vast majority of us. Let's envision your average chain restaurant. Hiring a RB is like hiring a server or greeter. There are tons of qualified candidates and a line of people to replace them if something doesn't work out. These are low risk decisions so often bias doesn't come into play when hiring. Just pick someone and let them give it a go. If they do good great, if they don't, then drop them.

Hiring a head coach is like hiring the CEO. To get to CEO there are many steps along the way. You have to start way down the chain (maybe even as a RB or waiter). There is networking, relationships, performance, etc, etc, etc. You have to make the right step almost every decision you make for years. And then when you get to the threshold of becoming a CEO you still don't have any experience actually being a CEO so the people doing the hiring still have a lot of uncertainty.

Now think about all the places along that journey where bias can come into play. I think it would be assinine to assume that this climb is just as easy for a black guy as it is for a white guy. Think about my EKY example. You think people from. EKY haven't been looked over for management jobs because someone didn't like their accent? Of course they have. Is that fair? Of course not. Black people have a double deck stacked against them. People don't like their accents, people don't like the way they dress, people don't like their skin color, people think unsafe when they're around, etc, etc, etc.
 

Dore95

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I think claiming unfairness is not entirely unreasonable here.
This may be true. but unfairness does not equal race discrimination. The law puts the burden on the employee to prove that race was a "motivating factor" in whatever employment decision that was made (in this case, the NYG decision to hire Daboll and not Flores). Just because, arguably, the NYG had already made their decision to hire Daboll before interviewing Flores is not (by itself) evidence of race discrimination.
 
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Louis_Skunt

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Let's put this in terms that make more sense for the vast majority of us. Let's envision your average chain restaurant. Hiring a RB is like hiring a server or greeter. There are tons of qualified candidates and a line of people to replace them if something doesn't work out. These are low risk decisions so often bias doesn't come into play when hiring. Just pick someone and let them give it a go. If they do good great, if they don't, then drop them.

Hiring a head coach is like hiring the CEO. To get to CEO there are many steps along the way. You have to start way down the chain (maybe even as a RB or waiter). There is networking, relationships, performance, etc, etc, etc. You have to make the right step almost every decision you make for years. And then when you get to the threshold of becoming a CEO you still don't have any experience actually being a CEO so the people doing the hiring still have a lot of uncertainty.

Now think about all the places along that journey where bias can come into play. I think it would be assinine to assume that this climb is just as easy for a black guy as it is for a white guy. Think about my EKY example. You think people from. EKY haven't been looked over for management jobs because someone didn't like their accent? Of course they have. Is that fair? Of course not. Black people have a double deck stacked against them. People don't like their accents, people don't like the way they dress, people don't like their skin color, people think unsafe when they're around, etc, etc, etc.
You still didnt answer my question. Is it safe to say that black running backs and wide receivers are just better at that position? If so, is it racist to say that white people are possibly better at certain positions? Of course it is, racism is just a one way street.

Also, its not 1950, black people have a leg up on everything right now, they have the easiest road to success. If you go to high school and apply to college, you get the benefit of acceptance if youre black, even if your grades aren't as good as the white guy applying to the same school. When you get accepted, you can apply for multiple minority and black scholarships that cover THE ENTIRE amount. Your living situation and books are also covered under these grants. Then, when you graduate with a degree in African American Studies, you can apply to any job and your resume will be top of the pile because you are black. How many examples do you need? So no, the thought of african americans having a more difficult road is comical.
 
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Louis_Skunt

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I think he thinks black coaches in general don't get a fair shot. Also winning is what matters to fans and fans bring the money so winning keeps coaches in their job. Flores was offered under the table money to lose games. Why? Because you have to get paid extra to basically tank your job away when the fans turn on you. He didn't do that even though the team traded away all his good players in his first season. Then with a **** roster he had back to back winning seasons at a franchise that historically has been poorly run and they fired him. I think claiming unfairness is not entirely unreasonable here.
Tanking games for better draft position has been talked about for 20 years. Lets not play the race card and act like this is the first just because he's black. Thats silly.
An owner wants to win, and obviously the owner wanted better kids coming out of college instead of the middle of the road talent they have.

And why does Flores fans always bring up "he had a winning season"?? They were 9-8, why not give the record instead of pretending like they were amazing and the fire was unjust?
Owners dont want mediocre 9-8 seasons. How difficult is that to comprehend?
The team is built around a BLACK quarterback, but theyre racist? lol
 

Deeeefense

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Getting fired for a mediocre record in the NFL isn’t uncommon, even after only 2-3 years
He won 8 of their last 9 games, arguably the Fins were the most improving team in the League last season. Never seen a coach that's winning get fired. There's a backstory here.
 
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He won 8 of their last 9 games, arguably the Fins were the most improving team in the League last season. Never seen a coach that's winning get fired. There's a backstory here.
The back story here is that everyone hated him. He apparently wasn't talking to his coaches, he didn't want anything to do with Tua, he was really pushing for Watson, and he wasn't getting along with the GM. Not saying he was wrong on any of this stuff, but he definitely wasn't endearing himself to the people who made a decision on whether he stays or goes. I really think he's kind of a hot head.
 

JoeSwag

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He won 8 of their last 9 games, arguably the Fins were the most improving team in the League last season. Never seen a coach that's winning get fired. There's a backstory here.
The backstory as in he and their GM (who is also black) hated each other. That’s the backstory. So when your boss doesn’t like you and you never made the playoffs anyway this will be the result.

Doug Pederson went to the playoffs 3 of 5 years and won a Super Bowl and got fired. No one says a word but if he were black, the outcry would be huge.

Miami’s GM being black further destroys this bogus claim.
 
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JoeSwag

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This is all well before the lawsuit.


And thus the problem with running with his grievances and blindly adopting them. Media didn’t hesitate to back him and bring him on. All of the blue checks ran wild with it instead of waiting to know more about it.

And within a matter of days, his narrative is being destroyed and you’re seeing how problematic he was behind the scenes. His lawsuit is already proof that he’s the problem. That’s your first reaction?
 
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Dore95

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I'm a Dolphins season ticket holder. I really liked Flores and was against the firing. But when he was 1-7 this past year (on the heels of 10-6 in 2020), people were definitely clamoring for a change. The fact that they went 8-1 to close out was remarkable. You never heard anything about his being difficult until after he was fired. So, I do think his termination seems "unfair" on its face. But I also think his lawsuit, which (needlessly) throws all sorts of people under the bus, maybe is evidence of some of the behind the scenes personality issues that led to his termination.
 

CatsFanGG24

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He won 8 of their last 9 games, arguably the Fins were the most improving team in the League last season. Never seen a coach that's winning get fired. There's a backstory here.
Their terrible start counts against him...losses to Jags and Falcons are crucial.

If he quit talking to assistants and lost the whole staff, his mediocre record shouldnt save him.

Marty Schottenheimer was fired after 14-2 record.
 

Deeeefense

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Separate from the firing and the lawsuit is Flores' allegation that that Miami wanted to pay him $100K per game to throw them so they get get higher draft picks. Then Hue Jackson said the same thing happened to him at Cleveland. These are just allegations at this point but it will be interesting to see if they have legs. Hopefully for the sake of the League these turn out to be false, but there needs to be transparency here.
 

JoeSwag

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Jackson is full of it. He was terrible.

Players do not tank. They will not sacrifice their work so a GM can get a better draft pick to possibly replace them. This is ridiculous.

You can bank on this being an exaggeration and bogus interpretation which of course, they will have no proof of whatsoever.
 
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Separate from the firing and the lawsuit is Flores' allegation that that Miami wanted to pay him $100K per game to throw them so they get get higher draft picks. Then Hue Jackson said the same thing happened to him at Cleveland. These are just allegations at this point but it will be interesting to see if they have legs. Hopefully for the sake of the League these turn out to be false, but there needs to be transparency here.

If an owner / GM can clearly put a team together to tank, why would it be immoral / impossible for a coach to be in on it too. The way around this would be a) European style relegation (not happening) or a draft lottery (should happen because of this). And said draft lottery should not be as extreme as the NBA where the last place team in the league has like a 30% chance of getting the top pick.
 

Cleisthenes

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Separate from the firing and the lawsuit is Flores' allegation that that Miami wanted to pay him $100K per game to throw them so they get get higher draft picks. Then Hue Jackson said the same thing happened to him at Cleveland. These are just allegations at this point but it will be interesting to see if they have legs. Hopefully for the sake of the League these turn out to be false, but there needs to be transparency here.
I LMAO when I saw Hue Jackson being interviewed. Talk about the worst possible witness for your side. Hue is only the worst coach in the history of the NFL and his race has absolutely nothing to do with how terrible he is.

I look for this very weak lawsuit to get tossed out of court at the first possible opportunity as it is completely meritless to the point of being frivolous.
 
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Deeeefense

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I LMAO when I saw Hue Jackson being interviewed. Talk about the worst possible witness for your side. Hue is only the worst coach in the history of the NFL and his race has absolutely nothing to do with how terrible he is.

I look for this very weak lawsuit to get tossed out of court at the first possible opportunity as it is completely meritless to the point of being frivolous.
Unless they can produce evidence i.e. text messages, recordings witnesses etc. no chance.
 
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The fact that his reaction was to file a lawsuit and go to the media this quickly (as well as throw Belichick under the bus who helped him even get the Dolphins job) speaks volumes. No way would you ever want to hire this guy.

This is a no-win situation hiring coaches like this if you’re not even sure they’re home run hires. If you don’t hire a black coach, you’re racist. If you hire and then later fire, it’s racist. If three or four teams hire a black head coach, it’s still not enough. No one can be better suited for a job, it has to be “racism.”

Flores wants to be Colin Kaepernick 2.0. The coaches like Hue trying to piggyback off of this is hilarious. You were just bad, man.

This Chris Bosh tweet is honestly so delusional and “r” and somehow it’s considered okay and displays that there is no magical number or bar short of 100% where satisfaction can be achieved.


I'm curious why it's race is only important in the coaching ranks but not in the player ranks? Should each team be required to invite so many white dbs/rbs to training camp too?

Hue Jackson cant be in any conversation. Fired by a black GM (who interestingly enough is currently a Miami Sr exec) and followed that up with a 3-36-1 record.

This is the hurdle he'll never clear and why it's bs. Miami showed a propensity to hire black executives and gms.
 
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