Can you play without a primary ballhandler?

[NUCat320]

I am very pessimistic about the point guard position. Among the contenders, only Greer strikes me as a true LG. Gaines is closer to Lumpkin than to Mc, Taylor’s stats portend a guy who is shoot-first, second, and third, and Ash mostly stands there on offense.

So, my question: Can you play without a designated point? Is it reasonable with this roster? I could see any of the above, plus Law, Nance, Tino (why not!?), Turner (more of a stretch?), and Kopp all being “bring it downcourt” guys. If teams are content to play half-court defense, it seems almost likely.

The best best best case is for Greer to come in like Mc did this time in 2014, but I think it’s unlikey given that, three months ago, he expected to be in prep school right now.

I’m optimistic about the rest of the roster. Taylor and Turner have successful track records, Pardon is still getting better, Law is The Chosen One, and one of the freshman wings should be good. Falzon and Benson are minutes guys, with a chance for Falzon to break out if he’s healthy.

 

[hdhntr1]

I am very pessimistic about the point guard position. Among the contenders, only Greer strikes me as a true LG. Gaines is closer to Lumpkin than to Mc, Taylor’s stats portend a guy who is shoot-first, second, and third, and Ash mostly stands there on offense.

So, my question: Can you play without a designated point? Is it reasonable with this roster? I could see any of the above, plus Law, Nance, Tino (why not!?), Turner (more of a stretch?), and Kopp all being “bring it downcourt” guys. If teams are content to play half-court defense, it seems almost likely.

The best best best case is for Greer to come in like Mc did this time in 2014, but I think it’s unlikey given that, three months ago, he expected to be in prep school right now.

I’m optimistic about the rest of the roster. Taylor and Turner have successful track records, Pardon is still getting better, Law is The Chosen One, and one of the freshman wings should be good. Falzon and Benson are minutes guys, with a chance for Falzon to break out if he’s healthy.

If you have enough of them that can handle the ball. If not trouble.

 

[Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan]

Against most teams,this is not an issue. But teams built to wear you down like Loyola, Michigan,and Illinois will get five or more turnovers whenever Greer or Jordan Ash is not starting and playing 25-30 minutes a game. Both those guys have the speed to run by any forward in this league. Gaines is great on defense,but he ain't a ball handler.

 

[willycat]

I am very pessimistic about the point guard position. Among the contenders, only Greer strikes me as a true LG. Gaines is closer to Lumpkin than to Mc, Taylor’s stats portend a guy who is shoot-first, second, and third, and Ash mostly stands there on offense.

So, my question: Can you play without a designated point? Is it reasonable with this roster? I could see any of the above, plus Law, Nance, Tino (why not!?), Turner (more of a stretch?), and Kopp all being “bring it downcourt” guys. If teams are content to play half-court defense, it seems almost likely.

The best best best case is for Greer to come in like Mc did this time in 2014, but I think it’s unlikey given that, three months ago, he expected to be in prep school right now.

I’m optimistic about the rest of the roster. Taylor and Turner have successful track records, Pardon is still getting better, Law is The Chosen One, and one of the freshman wings should be good. Falzon and Benson are minutes guys, with a chance for Falzon to break out if he’s healthy.

How about a point PF, ala the Bulls Horace Grant or a point center?

 

[hdhntr1]

How about a point PF, ala the Bulls Horace Grant or a point center?

Scottie Pippen was the Point Forward, not Horace Grant. Tony Kuchoch Sp also sort of filled that roll.

 

[willycat]

Scottie Pippen was the Point Forward, not Horace Grant. Tony Kuchoch Sp also sort of filled that roll.

Your right. As I typed that I had my forwards confused and worked there at that time.

 

[loyolacat]

Depends on what type of offense you decide to run..last year Loyola ran the 4out 1 in offense....which was made for 4 guys who could take it to the hoop.......Seems to me the Cats might have to run some sort of offense that runs in to out....where you create mismatches when the balls gets to the post where Pardon and Benson can score and if double teamed kick it out to spot up shooters.....I do not know how skilled the new players are with ball handling....if they are at least semi skilled they might be able to run some sort of motion offense which would match a bunch of players who have inside and outside skill sets but maybe not so much drive to the hoop skills.....Sure will be interesting to see. I think we will see Pardon as the go to guy this year and maybe even both Pardon and Benson playing together a lot? But if we play teams that have lots of drive to the hoop kind of players might create some defensive issues.....so maybe we see more zone?

 

[freewillie07]

It seems to me that the best option would be using a very lengthy lineup of Gaines-Taylor-Turner-Law + Pardon to create havoc in man-to-man defense, create turnovers, crash the boards and just get the ball down the floor with whoever happens to get the outlet pass.

All the wings can handle the ball somewhat but against a very good team that elects to press, they will get killed.

 

[Sec_112]

Initially, I'd answer your question with a firm "no."

However, there's been some really poor ball-handling NU teams in the recent past that I thought could EASILY be pressed and devoured. And that includes the BMac teams. I thought there were times when they handled the pressed really poorly.

Yet, I'm pretty surprised how rarely teams go full court against NU. I'd pull out "40 minutes of hell" quite often on NU - BMac, Sobolewski.

And yet year after year, NU doesn't see that much of it. So maybe NU can get away with average guard play.

However, I agree with your statement about Gaines. I missing something that a lot of people see. That handle is too high for me.

 

[Medill90]

It's tougher to take the ball away from a team with a lot of experience.

I remember when Vic was a frosh and NU played at Maryland and almost beat a top ranked team. Vic put the ball on the floor trying to break the press and turned it over. Today he'll keep his dribble, look for his teammate to get into open space, then pass. Falzon, Ash, Law and Pardon all have three years in NU's system breaking the press. Gaines and Turner are in their second year.

I do think with a true PG on the floor some bad stuff will happen. I'm as worried about running the offense cleanly as I am about the press.

 

[Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan]

It's tougher to take the ball away from a team with a lot of experience.

I remember when Vic was a frosh and NU played at Maryland and almost beat a top ranked team. Vic put the ball on the floor trying to break the press and turned it over. Today he'll keep his dribble, look for his teammate to get into open space, then pass. Falzon, Ash, Law and Pardon all have three years in NU's system breaking the press. Gaines and Turner are in their second year.

I do think with a true PG on the floor some bad stuff will happen. I'm as worried about running the offense cleanly as I am about the press.

A solid pg is necessary to break the opponents press and play defense.

 

[Deeringfish]

Of course you can play. the question is, "Can you win."

 

[TheC]

Initially, I'd answer your question with a firm "no."

However, there's been some really poor ball-handling NU teams in the recent past that I thought could EASILY be pressed and devoured. And that includes the BMac teams. I thought there were times when they handled the pressed really poorly.

Yet, I'm pretty surprised how rarely teams go full court against NU. I'd pull out "40 minutes of hell" quite often on NU - BMac, Sobolewski.

And yet year after year, NU doesn't see that much of it. So maybe NU can get away with average guard play.

However, I agree with your statement about Gaines. I missing something that a lot of people see. That handle is too high for me.

Can I put forth the crazy idea that full court pressuring the entire game is really hard and drains your players? If you have a star player or two on the floor that you want to be out there most of the time, they can't be pressing all game or they will be dead on offense. We sometimes see a team press like crazy at the end of a game and it is very effective and we wonder why not do that all game? Because it's hard!! 40 minutes of hell is a bit of a gimmick that you do when you have a deep team where no individual players are really vital to your success.

 

[Sec_112]

Can I put forth the crazy idea that full court pressuring the entire game is really hard and drains your players? ...

Now, com' on, C. You know I'm not talking about 40 minutes per game.

The thing that has always blown my mind is the Cats don't see pressure anywhere in the ballpark of regularly. Five minutes a game? The last five minutes of a game? Half court? Two or three possessions a game? Even every two or three games?

Not even close.

After MSU last year, I thought the last two or three games would be press city - especially Maryland. Nope.

The Cats were so easy to press also. BMac goes into the corner every time and makes the quick jump pass. Now the ball is out of the hands of your best player. The only player that MAY become a fullcourt problem then is Lindsey. And if I'm a coach, I'd let him and that fabulous decision-making try to beat me all day. "Is today the 1-in-4 game he's playing well?" I'd take that bet.

At worst, the opposing team comes out of there with eight or nine seconds less on the shot clock against a pretty mediocre shooting team. And most B10 teams have enough athleticism to reset their defense against NU.

But NU never REGULARLY saw that kind of pressure. They rarely saw it when BMac was hurt. They never saw it when Sobo was the primary ballhandler and they rarely saw it when the Carmody teams exhibited all sorts of problems against pressure.

That's why I wonder if we overplay the effect of a medicore primary ballhandler against pressure. It's not the first time NU hasn't been able to handle full court pressure. And for whatever odd reason, it just doesn't come into play that much.

Of course, then there's Michigan State.

 

[Medill90]

A couple things worry me about the press.

The first is the three-quarters soft press that teams will use to take some time off the clock. It may actually present a challenge to NU. Hope not, but let's see.

The other is the last five or so minutes of a close game. If NU struggles it could make those games a coin flip.

With that said, full course press is difficult to execute well and, when broken, can be challenge to fall neatly back into the half court defense.

NU's experience may really stand out. They may be able to throw it over the press and also find players on the other side of the press for quick conversions.

I think the nicely sized, athletic wings....Law, Kopp, Turner, Taylor....are capable in the half court of putting the ball on the floor for three of six dribbles. The fact that there are more threats on offense all the time will open up the offense and take some pressure off the lead guard.

It's the tight games, end of game situations that I worry about.

 

[TheC]

Now, com' on, C. You know I'm not talking about 40 minutes per game.

The thing that has always blown my mind is the Cats don't see pressure anywhere in the ballpark of regularly. Five minutes a game? The last five minutes of a game? Half court? Two or three possessions a game? Even every two or three games?

Not even close.

After MSU last year, I thought the last two or three games would be press city - especially Maryland. Nope.

The Cats were so easy to press also. BMac goes into the corner every time and makes the quick jump pass. Now the ball is out of the hands of your best player. The only player that MAY become a fullcourt problem then is Lindsey. And if I'm a coach, I'd let him and that fabulous decision-making try to beat me all day. "Is today the 1-in-4 game he's playing well?" I'd take that bet.

At worst, the opposing team comes out of there with eight or nine seconds less on the shot clock against a pretty mediocre shooting team. And most B10 teams have enough athleticism to reset their defense against NU.

But NU never REGULARLY saw that kind of pressure. They rarely saw it when BMac was hurt. They never saw it when Sobo was the primary ballhandler and they rarely saw it when the Carmody teams exhibited all sorts of problems against pressure.

That's why I wonder if we overplay the effect of a medicore primary ballhandler against pressure. It's not the first time NU hasn't been able to handle full court pressure. And for whatever odd reason, it just doesn't come into play that much.

Of course, then there's Michigan State.

Sure.... I know you didn't mean it literally. But still... when a team does not press a lot, it is not so trivial to just jump into it. A press involves not just a lot of energy, but a lot of execution. I'm guessing most teams don't feel it gives them enough of an advantage over us to try changing who they are when they play us.

That all said, I think people are worrying about the wrong thing. Its not the press that worries me in the absence of a point guard - its the half-court offense. What we saw most clearly the past few years is that when Mac came out of the game, the half-court offense stalled. Maybe this year others can be the engine that makes it go or maybe we won't rely so much on one guy with the ball that our offense is actually more balanced. We'll see.

 

[ricko6543211]

A couple things worry me about the press.

The first is the three-quarters soft press that teams will use to take some time off the clock. It may actually present a challenge to NU. Hope not, but let's see.

The other is the last five or so minutes of a close game. If NU struggles it could make those games a coin flip.

With that said, full course press is difficult to execute well and, when broken, can be challenge to fall neatly back into the half court defense.

NU's experience may really stand out. They may be able to throw it over the press and also find players on the other side of the press for quick conversions.

I think the nicely sized, athletic wings....Law, Kopp, Turner, Taylor....are capable in the half court of putting the ball on the floor for three of six dribbles. The fact that there are more threats on offense all the time will open up the offense and take some pressure off the lead guard.

It's the tight games, end of game situations that I worry about.

Agree with the tight games. It could make them worse than a coin flip. And it could also make it more difficult to hold onto leads. I guess we'll find out in due course how good of a ballhandler the various newcomers are...

 

[Deeringfish]

Can I put forth the crazy idea that full court pressuring the entire game is really hard and drains your players? If you have a star player or two on the floor that you want to be out there most of the time, they can't be pressing all game or they will be dead on offense. We sometimes see a team press like crazy at the end of a game and it is very effective and we wonder why not do that all game? Because it's hard!! 40 minutes of hell is a bit of a gimmick that you do when you have a deep team where no individual players are really vital to your success.

Just curious, along this line of thought. Is it possible to wear a team out by having a well practiced strategy of defending the press? Maybe if you are the only team doing that, you could screw with the other team? I think about when the football team introduced the spread. They had more success before the other teams caught on.

 

[NJCat]

Just curious, along this line of thought. Is it possible to wear a team out by having a well practiced strategy of defending the press?

?? What is "defending the press"? A press IS a defensive strategy.....

 

[Sec_112]

... The first is the three-quarters soft press that teams will use to take some time off the clock. It may actually present a challenge to NU ...

It's the tight games, end of game situations that I worry about.

...That all said, I think people are worrying about the wrong thing. Its not the press that worries me in the absence of a point guard - its the half-court offense.

Good stuff above.

And to your point, C, I don't disagree at all. I could see Law doing a better job than he did last year if he's allowed strong pre-season practice and reps. I'm not in love with his dribble, but I miiiiiiiight be able to live with him in the half court.

With all of this said, none of these scenarios are anything close to ideal - just trying to make the best of a less-than-ideal situation.

I hope someone surprises us.

 

[catstime16]

Why/How are Cats in this position???? (I know Lathon....but really?)

 

[Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan]

Good stuff above.

And to your point, C, I don't disagree at all. I could see Law doing a better job than he did last year if he's allowed strong pre-season practice and reps. I'm not in love with his dribble, but I miiiiiiiight be able to live with him in the half court.

With all of this said, none of these scenarios are anything close to ideal - just trying to make the best of a less-than-ideal situation.

I hope someone surprises us.

Ash was great at bringing the ball up the court and not turning the ball over. Am I missing something? Ash shot virtually the same percentage as Mac last year also. Why all the dispear?

 

[NJCat]

Why/How are Cats in this position???? (I know Lathon....but really?)

You answered your own question. Yes, Lathon, really. He would have been The Guy.

 

[catstime16]

Tremendously curious to see Mr. Lathons progress at UTEP....

 

[freewillie07]

You answered your own question. Yes, Lathon, really. He would have been The Guy.

But NU has also struck out on various other LG prospects through the years. Brown transferred. Ash hasn’t panned out like his HS teammate Watson over on Nebraska. Brad Davison chose Wisconsin over NU. Jordan Goodwin got lured over to Saint Louis.

Lathon would have been “the guy,” but NU needs to do better than gamble on one guy every four years.

 

[NUCat320]

If you read this thread, we kind of saw this coming, though we did a pretty good job of talking ourselves into small forward-as-guard.

 

[NJCat]

A solid pg is necessary to break the opponents press and play defense.

Hey, you're back!!!!!

 

[whofrewdatmataRU13]

We have Baker as our point guard, he is naturally a 2 and that's where he played last season. Been a lot of ups and downs this season with him bringing the ball up, and we have no true point guard on the roster to come in and back him up. Anyway good game last night, good luck the rest of the way.