Clayton vs. KJ (I apologize for beating a dead horse)
- Thread starter ThatadultfromHolland
- Start date
I think its more complicated than that.
But I'm not going to pretend I know what happened, because Clayton redshirting makes no sense whatsoever.
It was obvious to most people who follow the team that we had ballhandling issues.
Leach was stepping way up in class and Windham was a freshman combo guard coming in.
Not viewed as a point guard by anyone prior to the season.
Barnhizer isn't that great handling the ball either - especially an injured Barnhizer.
Assistant coach Brian James said publicly that Clayton had improved significantly.
So the need is pretty obvious, but Clayton redshirts anyhow.
Most of us interpreted that as Collins having no real use for him.
But it seems to me that Collins never dreamed that Leach might get hurt.
I like my source better than yours. Mine was right about the Barnhizer Freshman year nagging injuries. However the only part of the statement from my source is the KJ offseason part. I defer to guys who know ball better than me.
Last edited:
Occam's Razor, man. He wasn't likely to play much with Leach and Windham ahead of him, and Coach thought it would be better for the program, and perhaps for Clayton personally, to save him a year of eligibility here or elsewhere. Why overcomplicate it?
Because Collins has never redshirted a sophomore, other than injury, and we clearly needed ballhandling.
Given that - and how the season played out - Clayton burns redshirt anyhow - I find it very strange.
Leach missed half of two seasons with injuries prior to transferring to NU.
So I find the whole thing bizarre.
A rabbit's foot or shamrock won't get you thru the season without a significant injury or three.
You’re the backup PG as a freshman, play most every game, then PG (Buie) leaves, and then you decide to redshirt? If we had a stud portal PG coming in for a year, maybe I could understand it. But we did not. Is it possible that collins told him that he was likely to not have much playing time and he decided to redshirt because of that with the thought that he would transfer after the season? That was my impression of how things played out. I have no idea if this is accurate.
Because overall this year they haven't been all that different. So far this year KJ has shot it a little better but much of that is in a couple more recent games and the difference can be explained by the fact that KJ has had 4 times the playing time (400 min vs 100)and played in a lot more games this year than Clayton has (25 vs 6). Other per game stats are pretty similar as well with Clayton leading slightly in RBs (1.5 vs 1.1) and assists 2.0 vs 1.8) and KJ leading in points (4.8 vs 3.7) , lower turnovers (0.8 vs 1.2) and steals (0.8 vs 0.3) but the differences have not been big one way or the other and can easily be associated with differences in playing time to date
Just saying at this point the overall difference is not that much and can be accounted for in continuity and playing time. Right now KJ looks to have more of an upside but how much of that is just getting enough playing time to get to the next step?. I mean you take out those couple recent games and his performance for this year looks much more pedestrian
I think you are close, but Clayton was not the backup PG last year other than in the beginning of the season. It started like that but, by the time the conference play started, with plenty of poor play, he was pretty much stapled to the bench.
Ultimately I think you are right and the red shirt happened because it was obvious he was not going to play this season. Except we lost our two primary ball handlers.
This is getting absurd. It’s near the level of Carmody versus Collins. I just hope we don’t have two more years of this crap because someone needs to be right.
Whether KJ was awful on defense or he was Gary Payton 90 days ago is irrelevant to anything now. People have expressed their opinions and aren’t going to change their view. What is relevant is where is he now and where he will be in the future.
Whether Clayton was afraid to be out there last year is irrelevant. What is relevant is can he help us in the future. He already is a back up ( in terms of minutes) and of course he’ll have less expections than starters. Again, can he contribute? My belief is KJ has more than a slight advantage now. That doesn’t mean I am going to sh*t on Clayton every time I get a chance. I have great respect for Clayton’s willingness to burn his shirt and try and help.
Can someone start a thread about Blake Barkley? We are more likely to get closer to consensus there. Maybe not.
Whether KJ was awful on defense or he was Gary Payton 90 days ago is irrelevant to anything now. People have expressed their opinions and aren’t going to change their view. What is relevant is where is he now and where he will be in the future.
Whether Clayton was afraid to be out there last year is irrelevant. What is relevant is can he help us in the future. He already is a back up ( in terms of minutes) and of course he’ll have less expections than starters. Again, can he contribute? My belief is KJ has more than a slight advantage now. That doesn’t mean I am going to sh*t on Clayton every time I get a chance. I have great respect for Clayton’s willingness to burn his shirt and try and help.
Can someone start a thread about Blake Barkley? We are more likely to get closer to consensus there. Maybe not.
I really want to understand you here. You bring a ton of good data to this board, but what exactly is your criticism? I think we agree that with a healthy Leach and KJ, Clayton doesn't get meaningful playing time. That being the case, what's the downside of redshirting him? You might get a productive year out of him in the future. He's not taking valuable minutes from better players. And he's there on the bench in case of emergency. It seems like the best logical choice, but somehow you, a stats-driven logical guy, finds it bizarre. What should Coach have done in your mind?
Clayton is no threat to drive the lane. Not a good shooter either. Give me a slasher or a good shooter.
I wouldn't write off his shooting yet. He showed flashes at Minnesota, hitting two 3-pointers. His shooting form seems much better than last year. If he can give us a solid 15 minutes of no turnovers, good defense, and a few buckets, he's done his job. I expect him to be the third point guard in the rotation next year, behind KJ and West.
Thanks for the direct questions. And the sincerity (gasp).
I was high on Windham coming into the season.
I was surprised that Clayton was redshirted, because I thought our ball-handling concerns were obvious.
And I've never heard of sophomores redshirting.
So if I'm the coach, I'm looking at the possibility that Leach can't run the offense against Big Ten guards. I'm also wondering if Windham can be that guy. I'm concerned about our lack of quickness in the starting 5 - particularly the possibility that Berry and Leach cannot stay in front of quick guards. I'm also concerned that Leach will get injured or even just get in foul trouble during a game. If Clayton is redshirted, I can't use him.
But Collins did next to nothing to get Windham experience. Six minutes of garbage time for the entire month of December is just brutal for a young, talented player - especially one who represents most of your team's upside.
I would have preferred to see Clayton not redshirted. If Leach misses time (quite likely) then Clayton is likely needed. By redshirting him he comes in cold against Washington and causes us to lose that game. Collins decision to start Clayton over Windham was telling all of us that he thought Clayton was better than Windham - and if thats the case, then why the hell was Clayton sitting there redshirted?
Thats my frustration. The decisions do not make sense when viewed together.
Our goal in basketball now needs to be the Sweet 16. We've done the 32 a couple of times. To be in that 16, we need everyone to be at least very good at something, and a couple or more guys to be extremely good at several things. Windham looks like he has the potential to be at the least a very good scorer and I think he could be a significant piece of a 16 team in two years (next year we're not going to be that). Clayton's role, assuming he stays around, will be to compete for a back-up position. Maybe he gets it, maybe another young guy turns out to be better, which is what I expect to happen.
Both Clayton and KJ did a great job against the constant physical pressure of the UCLA guards who were rotating in. KJ showed some moves too. Great learning experience for them. It's been a season of what ifs, but still a fun one to witness. Go Cats!
I had no idea he had those stats (I was there).
What's weird is that Mullins had zero rebounds in 35 minutes last night. He usually rebounds.
Right regarding those stats I really don’t remember one assist. Were any of them driving to the lane? Or were they just perimeter passes that ended up becoming an assist when someone scored?
Still can’t believe this is a discussion. The man is really no threat to do anything offensively with the ball. Often dribbles past his defender to get into lane, then stops, gets nervous, wants to kick it back out. There is no confidence. There are nerves.
Btw after a couple missed shots and turnover (throwing a low pass to Nicholson (a no-no) a guy in the crowd started screaming “windham”. I should recruit him for this thread!
Well, to be fair, Windham threw a lob from outside the 3 point arc that Nicholson sort of flailed at in the first half.
It wasn't particularly pretty.
Now Ty Berry's lob to Big Matt in the 2nd half was awesome - it was right on the money.
I thought stats mattered to you upthread. Then when presented with data you say the data sucks.
I knew he had the rebounds because it's on the scoreboard, and he seemed to be grabbing a bunch of them. I don't remember any of the assists specifically, but I do remember he seemed to be moving the ball more crisply than in the last few games. I also noticed that he was tentative on his shots and was often unsure about what to do when he got into the lane. I had a pretty good hunch which of these Davidgolds5 would talk about.
Also, one turnover in 21 minutes against that defense is pretty impressive. Clayton is not a star, but he isn't killing us either. He's getting better and he's certainly not worthy of the frothing contempt that comes from some corners of this forum.
I think after that game last night, I concluded I want Clayton back on the team next year as a serviceable back-up point guard. He handled that very strong ball pressure quite well and got us into our offense, which is exactly what you want from a back-up point guard. His job is to do no harm while our stud PG (KJ or one of the frosh) get a breather to stay fresh.
We need more depth to have a little more of a rotation. I think we wore down a bit in the second half, which contributed to UCLA building that lead. Nick and Ty looked spent. It makes that frantic last two minutes even more impressive because they dug down deep to find that energy.
Ciaravino got himself into the doghouse.
He's the missing depth right now.
Well - that and somebody bigger than 6'6" to give Martinelli a breather every now and then.
Collins didn't play Luke Hunger last night - he's the only guy who could theoretically replace Martinelli and make the frontcourt bigger.
But I saw coach Lowery get in Ciaravino's face about some mistake when there was a timeout.
Lowery doesn't do that too often.
And Angelo got 4 minutes last night when we could have used him.
Gelo was OK vs OSU but generally has been missing since the Purdue outburst. I expect big things from him.
Interestingly, the Ohio State game was the only time Ciaravino was deployed with Nicholson/Martinelli/Berry/Windham for any extended amount of time.
To me thats the most logical use of Ciaravino - swapping him in for Mullins at the 3.
In that OSU game, that lineup went 26-20 in about 12 minutes. Of course we dominated the Buckeyes so maybe it doesn't mean so much.
In the 3 games since, that 5 man lineup has only played 2 scoreless minutes.
Reality is that there are only so many minutes for the position and with a healthy Leach there were not going to be many for the KJ Clayton duo. Certainly not enough for both KJ and Clayton to get anything meaningful. Yes KJ got 25 plus minutes in first three games but those were just as likely to be Barnhizer minutes as he was not available. At the beginning of the year, Leach did not seem ready and there were some turnovers but as he got used to the speed at this level he settled down and with Martinelli, Berry and Barnhizer ball handling did not seem to be the issue it looked like at the beginning of the season.
As far as not getting KJ much in minutes in Dec, First, there were only five games and the first two were conference games against IL and IA and were so tight and must win that a Frosh though talented, but had shown that he was a Frosh, was not gonna get any minutes. Because of the losses to Dayton and Butler, GT also became a must win, Then there was the fact thatt here was a lot of time between games at the end of the month and had to get a keep the starters able to play with each other and determine rotations. Maybe Collins could have gotten KJ a few more minutes in those last couple games of the month but it would not have been many
I would say second rather than third because CCC generally does not trust Frosh enough to give them a lot of minutes. And next year would be something we haven't seen. Three PG/LG on the same roster. Maybe KJ takes over Berry's spot with Clayton and West dividing the PG minutes. CCC likes multiple ball handlers on the froor. And we saw some of that the other night with both KJ and Clayton on the floor at the same time for multiple minutes. Gives Martinelli a rest from bringing the ball up the court
Ty Berry was struggling too. Leach was dreadful against Iowa and Penn State. Berry was bad against Illinois, Purdue and Michigan State. If you recall, Collins got so concerned about that that he inserted Angelo Ciaravino into the starting lineup for several games (with great success, I might add). It isn't like Ciaravino was jamming the box score with stats. But lets be clear - Collins chose Ciaravino to replace Berry. He didn't choose Windham, who was the more obvious choice. That happened in the 6th Big Ten game of the season - against Maryland.
I think if people are being truly honest (which is not always easy around here) Collins was selling Windham short since Barnhizer returned. Right up to and past the decision to activate and start Clayton. I was pleased to see the coach pull KJ aside a few times during the UCLA game to give him specific advice or instructions. It seemed like an acknowledgment of some kind.
You might just be seeing what you want to see there. Collins often pulls aside players during the game for instruction and this isn't the first or fifth time it's happened with Windham.
He had had all of about 100 minutes of playing time this year coming into this game, Hard to get consistent is shooting with that few minutes, That said In 21 minutes he had 25% of our rebounds and 41% of our assists. He only had only the one turnover that you mentioned, and one steal. He only took 3 shots that were open and online but did not go in. Pretty understandable with the limited playing time he has had, Overall he did a good job at what in doing the things as a PG he was there to do.
KJ had about 400 minutes of playing time coming into this game so I would expect his shooting and O to be better. He played 28 minutes and had 2 RBs and 2 Assts plus one steal and one turnover He shot better at 4/11 and his drives are a bit better.
Clayton had a solid overall game but you seem to have a constant need to belittle his performance
First he was not replacing Berry. Was just trying to give him a different perspective. And Berry is more a 2/3 than a PG/LG so it made more sense to put in Claravino so Berry could see what was happening.
I don't see CCC as selling KJ short. Just we tend to have a razor thin margin of error and Frosh tend to make Frosh mistakes. When it gets to conference game time Frosh are less likely to get minutes. CCC pulls all players aside to make corrections at one time or another when they come out of games
I guess I’m in that camp too. I don’t think clayton will be on the team next year. I’m curious as to what Hunger decides to do as well.