Coach K's best 5 players at Duke

[skysdad]

247SPORTS.COM has a list of Coach K's 5 best or starting 5. I can't argue with it much

G. Johnny Dawkins
G. J.J. Redick
C. Christian Laettner
F. Grant Hill
F. Shane Battier

You can argue with several other players but this list is hard to beat. Dawkins was the point his freshman year and I'm sure guys like Hurley, Williams, Brand and others can be up there. Take a close look and see if you see something they all have in common. OFC

 

[DiehardDukeFan4Life]

This would make a good trivia question and I believe I actually know the answer if it was asked in the trivia thread lol

 

[topps coach]

247SPORTS.COM has a list of Coach K's 5 best or starting 5. I can't argue with it much

G. Johnny Dawkins
G. J.J. Redick
C. Christian Laettner
F. Grant Hill
F. Shane Battier

You can argue with several other players but this list is hard to beat. Dawkins was the point his freshman year and I'm sure guys like Hurley, Williams, Brand and others can be up there. Take a close look and see if you see something they all have in common. OFC

4 year players?

 

[Liftee]

I can't argue with that 5 but it's hard to leave Jason Williams and Hurley off of it, just for being great college players and leaders. Jay Wms. wasn't a 4 year player but what he accomplished in 3...

 

[pisgah101]

I'd prob have to bump Dawkins for Jason or bobby but otherwise pretty good

 

[skysdad]

4 year players?

That's it. OFC

 

[gottagonow]

There can't be a top 5, just too many great Duke players, top 10 yes.

 

[DukeDenver]

What about: best player to appear in at least 120 games but average less than 3 ppg?

 

[bignish]

Is there any argument for having Dawkins there over Hurley?

Hurley holds the NCAA Assist record and is a 2 time national champion. We are so blessed as fans to have this many options to choose from though.

 

[Dattier]

Is there any argument for having Dawkins there over Hurley?

Hurley holds the NCAA Assist record and is a 2 time national champion. We are so blessed as fans to have this many options to choose from though.

Well, if you're going by best individual players rather than a cohesive line-up, sure. JD was a NPoY, 2 time AA, and graduated as Duke's all-time leading scorer. I'd still go with JJ and either Bobby or JWill over him, but there's certainly a case to be made.

 

[dukehokie]

Is there any argument for having Dawkins there over Hurley?

Hurley holds the NCAA Assist record and is a 2 time national champion. We are so blessed as fans to have this many options to choose from though.

If you're talking individual achievement, Dawkins was a far better player and producer than Hurley. We get into this cycle of championships mean everything. We probably don't get those championships without Dawkins paving the road. Individually, Dawkins is the secobd greatest player Duke has had after Laettner IMO. I'd consider Grant a close third.

 

[germantondevil]

Hurley and Jay Williams are just about impossible to leave off of the list but they probably would not have been at Duke if Dawkins had not exposed Coach K and the Duke program to the nation. He was a true pioneer of Coach Ks career. There were years before Coach K and Dawkins that were hard to swallow back in the day Johnny D has to be on that team IMO. OFC

 

[dopeshop23]

The hard part about this is trying to compare 1-2 years players with 3-4 year players with a larger body of work and more time to be endearing and remembered. The Shane pick jumps out me for example...he wasn't the best player on his own team during the years Brand was there much less comparing him to other Duke greats. He was a very likable multi-threat player with an accomplished four year career. I guess the only fair way is to compare year for year...how would a freshman Battier compare to a freshman Brand, Winslow, Parker, Williams, Irving or Deng...just food for thought. Of the 7 listed (as freshman) who would you start a team with? It's hard for me to pick...nice problem to have a Duke fan...

 

[crazyduke3]

I've no issue with Johnny over Bobby and Jay. Johnny was a massive reason why we were in that National game and we almost won it, flat out, he was probably better than Jay AND Bobby. No he didn't win a ring, but gosh almighty he came close, I wonder if we even sniff FF that year without him?

All three are Duke legends, but Dawkins is about the complete package.

 

[topps coach]

If you're talking individual achievement, Dawkins was a far better player and producer than Hurley. We get into this cycle of championships mean everything. We probably don't get those championships without Dawkins paving the road. Individually, Dawkins is the secobd greatest player Duke has had after Laettner IMO. I'd consider Grant a close third.

Assuming that you are just saying that JD is the second best player in the in the K era

 

[topps coach]

Hurley and Jay Williams are just about impossible to leave off of the list but they probably would not have been at Duke if Dawkins had not exposed Coach K and the Duke program to the nation. He was a true pioneer of Coach Ks career. There were years before Coach K and Dawkins that were hard to swallow back in the day Johnny D has to be on that team IMO. OFC

JD also said that he came to Duke because of the success of the 78 team.We have have along history of great players even before K arrived

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

If you're talking individual achievement, Dawkins was a far better player and producer than Hurley. We get into this cycle of championships mean everything. We probably don't get those championships without Dawkins paving the road. Individually, Dawkins is the secobd greatest player Duke has had after Laettner IMO. I'd consider Grant a close third.

Have to disagree. As pointed out, 2 championships and the all time assist leader would merit Hurley in the list. Between Hurley, Dawkins, and Redick -- I would have to out JJ at the bot to of that elite list. You can argue about Hurley vs. Dawkins, but we did win 2 championships with Bobby.

Replace Bobby with Johnny and do we get the same results? I doubt it.

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

I've no issue with Johnny over Bobby and Jay. Johnny was a massive reason why we were in that National game and we almost won it, flat out, he was probably better than Jay AND Bobby. No he didn't win a ring, but gosh almighty he came close, I wonder if we even sniff FF that year without him?

All three are Duke legends, but Dawkins is about the complete package.

I think Gene Banks was the first "Big Time" recruit.

 

[crazyduke3]

Not saying Gene wasn't. He

 

[dukehokie]

Have to disagree. As pointed out, 2 championships and the all time assist leader would merit Hurley in the list. Between Hurley, Dawkins, and Redick -- I would have to out JJ at the bot to of that elite list. You can argue about Hurley vs. Dawkins, but we did win 2 championships with Bobby.

Replace Bobby with Johnny and do we get the same results? I doubt it.

That lineup was loaded. We absolutely win the two titles we won with Johnny inserted as the PG.

 

[dukehokie]

Assuming that you are just saying that JD is the second best player in the in the K era

No not just K era. I love the names Verga, Heyman, Mullins, etc. even though I didn't get to see them play, but IMO, Laettner, Dawkins, Hill, Battier and Jason Williams make up the top 5 to ever lace up at Duke. This isn't a rub against pre-K Duke, it's just that if they all played in a different era, they'd still be the best.

 

[Dattier]

The hard part about this is trying to compare 1-2 years players with 3-4 year players with a larger body of work and more time to be endearing and remembered. The Shane pick jumps out me for example...he wasn't the best player on his own team during the years Brand was there much less comparing him to other Duke greats. He was a very likable multi-threat player with an accomplished four year career. I guess the only fair way is to compare year for year...how would a freshman Battier compare to a freshman Brand, Winslow, Parker, Williams, Irving or Deng...just food for thought. Of the 7 listed (as freshman) who would you start a team with? It's hard for me to pick...nice problem to have a Duke fan...

Your point about Shane is a fair one, but remember we're also talking about what they did at Duke. That doesn't mean how fast you did whatever you did at Duke. It means what you ultimately accomplished.

Think about Kyrie: His being picked #1 in the draft despite an 11 game sample size is a testament to his talent, but he could win 8 more NBA titles and it shouldn't retroactively inflate what he actually did at Duke.

Or Grayson: He barely saw the court as a freshman, which we forget because he happened to see it and explode on the biggest stage possible. He was a distant, distant 4th of the freshmen that year. Yet here we are, approaching his junior year, and he'll be a favorite to double Jahlil's All-ACC 1st team selections, match his 1st team AA, and match his ACC PoY. We also project as a heavy favorite for the FF, which would put him far, far ahead of his 3 classmates for accomplishments at Duke.

There are probably an endless amount of stories and nuances any time we discuss all-time lists. What could a coach during a time lacking parity ever do to hold off the field, for example? On the other hand, the subjectivity of it all is part of what makes it fun to discuss.

 

[dopeshop23]

Your point about Shane is a fair one, but remember we're also talking about what they did at Duke.

I am, I asked for a freshman to freshman comparison. To make the comparison as much apple to apple as it can be. You use Grayson and subsequent years as example which is exactly my point. (what if) You'll never be able to know that Winslow, Tre, and Ja were actually planing to stay all four years. Dominate the time, win 3 titles, and force Grayson into a role position in which he never shined and transferred his soph year only to realize his full potential at Marquette. The only true comparison trying to meld 1-2 stud duke players with 4 year guys is freshman year aptitude. By your logic, all of Grayson's accomplishments since their departure only make Tre, Winslow, more deserving of consideration because when they were all competing for time, they got it and he didn't.

 

[DiehardDukeFan4Life]

I am, I asked for a freshman to freshman comparison. To make the comparison as much apple to apple as it can be. You use Grayson and subsequent years as example which is exactly my point. (what if) You'll never be able to know that Winslow, Tre, and Ja were actually planing to stay all four years. Dominate the time, win 3 titles, and force Grayson into a role position in which he never shined and transferred his soph year only to realize his full potential at Marquette. The only true comparison trying to meld 1-2 stud duke players with 4 year guys is freshman year aptitude. By your logic, all of Grayson's accomplishments since their departure only make Tre, Winslow, more deserving of consideration because when they were all competing for time, they got it and he didn't.

Tre? Don't you mean Tyus? Tre is his younger brother that Duke is recruiting in the class of 2018

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

That lineup was loaded. We absolutely win the two titles we won with Johnny inserted as the PG.

Again, I have to politely disagree. JD started as the PG, but transitioned to the SG as Amaker was the PG during the three years they overlapped. It is kind of esoteric, and I could argue both sides, but I am sticking with Hurley -- I don't think we win the championships.

And for the record -- I love Johnny Dawkins. The most exciting player to watch at Duke.

 

[skysdad]

The sad thing about Johnny D. is he's getting easier and easier to forget. For us old timers here he and his class gave us a new hope. When they made the finals that year even though we lost I knew we had something special in Coach K and the top notch players started to come on a constant basis. Fr those who did not get to see Johnny play a lot I'm sorry you missed him. He could do it all. OFC

 

[denniden]

Johnny Dawkins
Bobby Hurley
Grant Hill
Christian Laettner
Shane Battier

Jason Williams coyd/should be in there too, but I am partial to Johnny Dawkins. He is perhaps the biggest reason I became a Duke fan to begin with. So there's that...

 

[dukehokie]

Again, I have to politely disagree. JD started as the PG, but transitioned to the SG as Amaker was the PG during the three years they overlapped. It is kind of esoteric, and I could argue both sides, but I am sticking with Hurley -- I don't think we win the championships.

And for the record -- I love Johnny Dawkins. The most exciting player to watch at Duke.

I hear you, but don't forget Johnny was the all-time scoring and assists leader when he graduated. The guy was a major talent. Any team was much better with him and those title teams in 91 & 92 would certainly be at least good with Johnny Dawkins. How could they not?

And championships, IMO, are more of a team accomplishment than they are individual. Johnny's place in Duke history can't be measured solely by his lack of championships when you're talking best individual players of all time.

Just so I can understand your point of view on this, and I'm not being facetious, is Johnny lower on your list than Tyus Jones? Tyus was a major contributor on a championship team and was MOP of the 2015 tournament.

 

[denniden]

Again, I have to politely disagree. JD started as the PG, but transitioned to the SG as Amaker was the PG during the three years they overlapped. It is kind of esoteric, and I could argue both sides, but I am sticking with Hurley -- I don't think we win the championships.

And for the record -- I love Johnny Dawkins. The most exciting player to watch at Duke.

I think Duke could have got it done with Dawkin's at the point on the early 90s teams. He was very versatile. However, Hurley was special and did win the titles.with those teams. So the hypothical shouldn't factor in too much here imo.

 

[dukehokie]

In my opinion, this argument isn't about replacing Johnny with Jason or Hurley, it's about whether JJ is in this top 5 or not. He was our best scorer obviously, but where is he on the other tangible measurements. The thing about these guys mentioned in the top 5 is that they did so many things well. JJ is top 10 for sure, but top 5? Maybe, maybe not? It depends on what you value.

 

[skysdad]

Hard to argue with any of you about your preferences. We need not forget Danny Ferry either. Look at what he done. NPOY, All-American, 58 points in one game which I don't think will ever be surpassed. We hardly ever mention him but he was one of Coach K's. A earlier version of Laettner without the extreme nasty although he did have an edge. OFC

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

I hear you, but don't forget Johnny was the all-time scoring and assists leader when he graduated. The guy was a major talent. Any team was much better with him and those title teams in 91 & 92 would certainly be at least good with Johnny Dawkins. How could they not?

And championships, IMO, are more of a team accomplishment than they are individual. Johnny's place in Duke history can't be measured solely by his lack of championships when you're talking best individual players of all time.

Just so I can understand your point of view on this, and I'm not being facetious, is Johnny lower on your list than Tyus Jones? Tyus was a major contributor on a championship team and was MOP of the 2015 tournament.

I am probably being too much of a Hurley homer...no, Tyus is not higher on my list than Johnny Dawkins. JD was the most fun player for a Duke fan to watch. After him I would have to say Grant Hill, and after him? I don't know ...Justice?

I understand your point -- happy that we are debating who is more important -- Johnny or Bobby. Not many schools get to have a debate like that.

 

[dukehokie]

I am probably being too much of a Hurley homer...no, Tyus is not higher on my list than Johnny Dawkins. JD was the most fun player for a Duke fan to watch. After him I would have to say Grant Hill, and after him? I don't know ...Justice?

I understand your point -- happy that we are debating who is more important -- Johnny or Bobby. Not many schools get to have a debate like that.

Absolutely and it's a good debate to have.

If we're trying to concoct a lineup, I'd say Hurley would have to be considered a top priority, but if we're talking 5 best K has ever had, I just don't see how Dawkins wouldn't be there. And like I mentioned, maybe Hurley or JWill replaces Redick...

But it's so tough because guys get left off and it almost seems like they're being disrespected and they aren't.

It's just one of those substance vs. value arguments and neither point ever wins. That's why it's so much fun to discuss.

And there's no such thing as being too much of a homer. With Heels and Wildkitties roaming around every corner, every bit of Hurley or Laettner or Battier love is needed.

 

[dukehokie]

Hard to argue with any of you about your preferences. We need not forget Danny Ferry either. Look at what he done. NPOY, All-American, 58 points in one game which I don't think will ever be surpassed. We hardly ever mention him but he was one of Coach K's. A earlier version of Laettner without the extreme nasty although he did have an edge. OFC

Ferry is in the top 10 in scoring, rebounds and assists. The guy was a flat out baller. He definitely needs to be mentioned and I bet, in fact I'm 99% sure K would put him higher on the all time list than any of us would. Danny was so good.

 

[dukedevilz]

K has coached 7 National Players of the Year while at Duke: Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Elton Brand, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, and JJ Redick. Pretty hard to trim that list down to 5, I assume most would cut Elton since he only played for two years. But, Elton was a more successful pro than the other 6 guys.

John Wooden has coached the second most National Player of the Years with 4. Of course, Alcindor and Walton did win 3 NPOY awards a piece.

 

[dopeshop23]

Your right Tyus....

On Dawkins...this is where I feel like an old guy. I think some of the issue is a lot of the younger posters just have not seen enough of him to know just how good he was. In that day, verticals were tested with one small rhythm step, not the 2-3 run in steps they use now. A true 40+ vertical was rare I can think of only and hand full measured by those standards who actually had one, Wilkins, Bias, Jordan and Dawkins come to mind. He was for his size every bit the athletic equal to Jordan. It would be different he he was just an athletic freak but he was incredibly skilled dominating cross over, covered ground linearly and lateral like a cat and could get to the rim at will. K had a trial of sorts when they hit the door for summer, basically to see who was being serious and didn't screw off over the summer the dude ran close to 4:30 mile untrained. I can promise you Duke has not had a more athletic PG in its history. One obscure play comes to mind as an illustration...I think it was 83-84 Duke/UNC game in Carmichael game was tied and UNC had the last possession. Jordan was in the corner along the base line and Dawkins was at the the top of the key guarding their point Jimmy Black I think...Black delivered a pass to Jordan for a last second game winner. Dawkins with his back to the play turned and with TWO bounding steps covered about 28-30 feet and tipped the ball being shot by Jordan at full extension roughly 9 feet in the air to defect that shot sending it into over time. I'm not sure how many people on the the planet would be capable of that...He won player of the year in a time when Duke didn't have nearly the same reputation it has now or exposure. It is a very interesting question to switch the two by putting Hurley on the 82-86 team and Dawkins on the 90-94 teams. My feeling is we as Duke fans are blessed that never happened. Duke in the 80s needed a dominant do all uber athletic lead guard to help nullify some of the best teams the ACC has ever seen. I serious dought Hurley or Duke would have been as successful. Like wise Im not sure how it would have worked int 90s with some of the very strong personalities CL, Davis as they all would have had to come to grips with the idea of vieing for being the second best player on the team, scary thought really.

 

[Liftee]

Hurley was the perfect college point guard but he needed great players around him to get the assist record. Redick was the most electrifying shooter I have seen since Rick Mount in the '60s and he did it with every team designing their defense to stop him. Jason Williams was a great competitor who did anything necessary to win. But Dawkins was simply a great college basketball player who could do and did everything on a basketball court. Can't go wrong choosing any of them but I would stick with the original 5 at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Dattier]

The only true comparison trying to meld 1-2 stud duke players with 4 year guys is freshman year aptitude. By your logic, all of Grayson's accomplishments since their departure only make Tre, Winslow, more deserving of consideration because when they were all competing for time, they got it and he didn't.

No, I very much disagree. Limiting the comparison to freshmen year just because that's all we have for some guys is like deciding who wins the 400 based on who is leading after 100 because some guys stopped there. It's apples-to-apples, sure, but the pie ain't finished yet. Should we limit everyone to their first 11 games in order to make an apples to apples comparison to Kyrie?
Greg Paulus led the ACC in assists and was ACC all-freshman his freshman year. Nolan Smith had such an underwhelming freshman year he considered transferring. By their respective senior years, Greg was a part-time starter; Nolan was ACC PoY and 1st team AA. Freshman-to-freshman comparisons show only where guys were at that point in their development. It's a fine thing to include in the conversation, but it should not carry much weight.

 

[dopeshop23]

Neither us are going to have a sample size that will fully vet our side of the argument...which makes its exploration all the more interesting on that I think we can agree. We are both blessed with a mutual love for a special program that has for as long as I have lived has given folks like us a lot to talk about, love and admire.

 

[denniden]

Ferry is in the top 10 in scoring, rebounds and assists. The guy was a flat out baller. He definitely needs to be mentioned and I bet, in fact I'm 99% sure K would put him higher on the all time list than any of us would. Danny was so good.

I forgot about Danny! HE could play and should be in the conversation.

Back to the JJ thing from earlier in the thread, I do not think he is deserving of being at the top. He accomplished a lot, and I am a big fan of his, but he is not on the level as many of the others mentioned.