Coach Riley

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

You can use any time frame you want
Okay, I'll use 2006-2008, Oregon State went 10-4, 9-4, 9-4.

Therefore, he's Tom Osborne, the conference titles will come, just have patience. It took Tom Osborne 9 years before he won an outright conference title, at Nebraska. Patience, patience, patience.

Gawd damn this is fun!
That really makes no logical sense in the debate here - use his entire record the concern is that he was trending down at OSU do you dispute that?
 

HuskerTimOmaha

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Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

That really makes no logical sense in the debate here - use his entire record the concern is that he was trending down at OSU do you dispute that?
Wait a minute, you just stated....

Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

You can use any time frame you want
So I use any time frame I want, and now it makes no logical sense.


 

dinglefritz

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Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

You can use any time frame you want
Okay, I'll use 2006-2008, Oregon State went 10-4, 9-4, 9-4.

Therefore, he's Tom Osborne, the conference titles will come, just have patience. It took Tom Osborne 9 years before he won an outright conference title, at Nebraska. Patience, patience, patience.

Gawd damn this is fun!
That really makes no logical sense in the debate here - use his entire record the concern is that he was trending down at OSU do you dispute that?
You do also realize that the rest of the Pac 12 was trending up during that time also don't you? You had multiple teams over the past 7-8 years get better coaching and better teams during that stretch. The really neat thing is that NONE of that will matter once we start playing the games. Either he wins at NU or he doesn't. If 4 or 5 years from now he isn't winning, he'll be gone. If he IS winning some dimwit will want a statue put up somewhere. Bill Callahan was right about one thing. Some of us need to get a life. Win at a respectable clip and act like a grownup. That's all most of expect. He's our head coach. Time to support the program.
 

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

That really makes no logical sense in the debate here - use his entire record the concern is that he was trending down at OSU do you dispute that?
Wait a minute, you just stated....

Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

You can use any time frame you want
So I use any time frame I want, and now it makes no logical sense.


Now your just being childish, Ok you are correct previous records mean nothing, a coaches trend of winning or losing means nothing - Heck why did we not hire Brady Hoke he won a BCS game. Or how about Mack Brown he did pretty well at Texas
 

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by dinglefritz:
Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

You can use any time frame you want
Okay, I'll use 2006-2008, Oregon State went 10-4, 9-4, 9-4.

Therefore, he's Tom Osborne, the conference titles will come, just have patience. It took Tom Osborne 9 years before he won an outright conference title, at Nebraska. Patience, patience, patience.

Gawd damn this is fun!
That really makes no logical sense in the debate here - use his entire record the concern is that he was trending down at OSU do you dispute that?
You do also realize that the rest of the Pac 12 was trending up during that time also don't you? You had multiple teams over the past 7-8 years get better coaching and better teams during that stretch. The really neat thing is that NONE of that will matter once we start playing the games. Either he wins at NU or he doesn't. If 4 or 5 years from now he isn't winning, he'll be gone. If he IS winning some dimwit will want a statue put up somewhere. Bill Callahan was right about one thing. Some of us need to get a life. Win at a respectable clip and act like a grownup. That's all most of expect. He's our head coach. Time to support the program.
I do support him and I do support the program - I would love for him to do well - However this is a discussion board and some people have concerns including me because of his lack of recent success. Is it not supporting the program to express those concerns?
 

HuskerTimOmaha

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Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

Now your just being childish, Ok you are correct previous records mean nothing, a coaches trend of winning or losing means nothing - Heck why did we not hire Brady Hoke he won a BCS game. Or how about Mack Brown he did pretty well at Texas
Nah, I'm doing exactly what you told me to do, using any time frame I want.

I've also shared examples of non-impressive coaching records, and there's more to add to the list from both sides of the table.


This post was edited on 4/7 9:54 AM by HuskerTimOmaha
 

huskerbaseball13

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Originally posted by SnohomishRed:
You can use any time frame you want but the simple fact is OSU was trending down not up or even that is the concern and it is a valid one.

Now certainly it is harder to win at some schools that is why you look at trajectory - Les Miles at Okie state was trending up that is why LSU hired him and it paid off. Oregon state under Riley showed the same trend earlier on and that is why other schools wanted him. Lately however the trend is down and it is a concern. Even Riley admitted this last year at OSU

Now maybe the change will energize him, maybe his style of play is more suited to the Big10 and it is very possible he can do well here and I love what he has done so far during the transition.

Make no mistake however the downward trend at OSU is a concern all programs look at this. If not then a coach like Mack Brown would still be at Texas
In Les Miles last three years at OSU he went 8-5(5-3), 9-5(5-3), 7-5(4-4)........yeah trending "up."
 

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:


Originally posted by SnohomishRed:
You can use any time frame you want but the simple fact is OSU was trending down not up or even that is the concern and it is a valid one.

Now certainly it is harder to win at some schools that is why you look at trajectory - Les Miles at Okie state was trending up that is why LSU hired him and it paid off. Oregon state under Riley showed the same trend earlier on and that is why other schools wanted him. Lately however the trend is down and it is a concern. Even Riley admitted this last year at OSU

Now maybe the change will energize him, maybe his style of play is more suited to the Big10 and it is very possible he can do well here and I love what he has done so far during the transition.

Make no mistake however the downward trend at OSU is a concern all programs look at this. If not then a coach like Mack Brown would still be at Texas
In Les Miles last three years at OSU he went 8-5(5-3), 9-5(5-3), 7-5(4-4)........yeah trending "up."
Yes it is since the previous three years to that they went 13-20
 

Lincoln100

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Originally posted by 500mileRadius:
Mike Riley will be 62 years old when he coaches his first game at Nebraska.



Posted from Rivals Mobile

This post was edited on 4/7 9:06 AM by 500mileRadius
And still in better shape, mentally and physically, then 99% of this board.
 

jlb321_rivals110621

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Urban Meyer last 3 seasons at Florida

13-1 13-1 7-5

ole Urb was in free-fall ..... can't believe Ohio St rolled the dice on that guy
 

huskerbaseball13

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Originally posted by SnohomishRed:


Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:



Originally posted by SnohomishRed:
You can use any time frame you want but the simple fact is OSU was trending down not up or even that is the concern and it is a valid one.

Now certainly it is harder to win at some schools that is why you look at trajectory - Les Miles at Okie state was trending up that is why LSU hired him and it paid off. Oregon state under Riley showed the same trend earlier on and that is why other schools wanted him. Lately however the trend is down and it is a concern. Even Riley admitted this last year at OSU

Now maybe the change will energize him, maybe his style of play is more suited to the Big10 and it is very possible he can do well here and I love what he has done so far during the transition.

Make no mistake however the downward trend at OSU is a concern all programs look at this. If not then a coach like Mack Brown would still be at Texas
In Les Miles last three years at OSU he went 8-5(5-3), 9-5(5-3), 7-5(4-4)........yeah trending "up."
Yes it is since the previous three years to that they went 13-20
He was hired after his 7-5 year....by definition that would be trending down. Not up. So previous regime results matter for guys like Les Miles but not for Riley? Got it. So essentially you are downgrading Riley because he performed above par compared to past historical results at Oregon St? If Riley would have sucked the first decade then we could all say..."welp this was a good hire because he kept the Oregon State program stagnant with all their 2-10 years. Derpy derp derp."
 

huskerbaseball13

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Originally posted by jlb321:
Urban Meyer last 3 seasons at Florida

13-1 13-1 7-5

ole Urb was in free-fall ..... can't believe Ohio St rolled the dice on that guy
And let's not forget Harbaugh....going from 12-4 to 8-8 before being hired at UM. UM is screwed!
 

dinglefritz

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Originally posted by SnohomishRed: I do support him and I do support the program - I would love for him to do well - However this is a discussion board and some people have concerns including me because of his lack of recent success. Is it not supporting the program to express those concerns?
NO. It is not. Not now. IF in 3 or 4 years from now he isn't winning, bring it up. Right now this team needs the whole fan base pulling for it without some people seeding doubt by expressing irrelevant opinions. We hired a damned good football coach that does things the right way. Expressing doubt because of past selected statistics does NOTHING to help the program. Nothing.
 

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:


Originally posted by SnohomishRed:


Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:



Originally posted by SnohomishRed:
You can use any time frame you want but the simple fact is OSU was trending down not up or even that is the concern and it is a valid one.

Now certainly it is harder to win at some schools that is why you look at trajectory - Les Miles at Okie state was trending up that is why LSU hired him and it paid off. Oregon state under Riley showed the same trend earlier on and that is why other schools wanted him. Lately however the trend is down and it is a concern. Even Riley admitted this last year at OSU

Now maybe the change will energize him, maybe his style of play is more suited to the Big10 and it is very possible he can do well here and I love what he has done so far during the transition.

Make no mistake however the downward trend at OSU is a concern all programs look at this. If not then a coach like Mack Brown would still be at Texas
In Les Miles last three years at OSU he went 8-5(5-3), 9-5(5-3), 7-5(4-4)........yeah trending "up."
Yes it is since the previous three years to that they went 13-20
He was hired after his 7-5 year....by definition that would be trending down. Not up. So previous regime results matter for guys like Les Miles but not for Riley? Got it. So essentially you are downgrading Riley because he performed above par compared to past historical results at Oregon St? If Riley would have sucked the first decade then we could all say..."welp this was a good hire because he kept the Oregon State program stagnant with all their 2-10 years. Derpy derp derp."
Trend -
a general direction in which something is developing or changing.

So no one year is not a trend maybe not even a couple of years depending on the overall trend time line - 3 years - 4 year? yes I would have to say that is time enough to tell its not due to abnormally high injuries or lack of time or some other factor that can be a short term problem
 

huskat

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Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:


Originally posted by SnohomishRed:
You can use any time frame you want but the simple fact is OSU was trending down not up or even that is the concern and it is a valid one.

Now certainly it is harder to win at some schools that is why you look at trajectory - Les Miles at Okie state was trending up that is why LSU hired him and it paid off. Oregon state under Riley showed the same trend earlier on and that is why other schools wanted him. Lately however the trend is down and it is a concern. Even Riley admitted this last year at OSU

Now maybe the change will energize him, maybe his style of play is more suited to the Big10 and it is very possible he can do well here and I love what he has done so far during the transition.

Make no mistake however the downward trend at OSU is a concern all programs look at this. If not then a coach like Mack Brown would still be at Texas
In Les Miles last three years at OSU he went 8-5(5-3), 9-5(5-3), 7-5(4-4)........yeah trending "up."
Yes it is since the previous three years to that they went 13-20
Trust me, many of the LSU fans I know, and I know a lot of them, were saying the same thing when Les was hired that some on here are saying about Riley. Not qualified, we deserve better, we're LSU, etc.
 

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by dinglefritz:
Originally posted by SnohomishRed: I do support him and I do support the program - I would love for him to do well - However this is a discussion board and some people have concerns including me because of his lack of recent success. Is it not supporting the program to express those concerns?
NO. It is not. Not now. IF in 3 or 4 years from now he isn't winning, bring it up. Right now this team needs the whole fan base pulling for it without some people seeding doubt by expressing irrelevant opinions. We hired a damned good football coach that does things the right way. Expressing doubt because of past selected statistics does NOTHING to help the program. Nothing.
Sorry I did not get the propaganda memo - my mistake
 

huskerbaseball13

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Originally posted by SnohomishRed:


Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:



Originally posted by SnohomishRed:



Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:




Originally posted by SnohomishRed:
You can use any time frame you want but the simple fact is OSU was trending down not up or even that is the concern and it is a valid one.

Now certainly it is harder to win at some schools that is why you look at trajectory - Les Miles at Okie state was trending up that is why LSU hired him and it paid off. Oregon state under Riley showed the same trend earlier on and that is why other schools wanted him. Lately however the trend is down and it is a concern. Even Riley admitted this last year at OSU

Now maybe the change will energize him, maybe his style of play is more suited to the Big10 and it is very possible he can do well here and I love what he has done so far during the transition.

Make no mistake however the downward trend at OSU is a concern all programs look at this. If not then a coach like Mack Brown would still be at Texas
In Les Miles last three years at OSU he went 8-5(5-3), 9-5(5-3), 7-5(4-4)........yeah trending "up."
Yes it is since the previous three years to that they went 13-20
He was hired after his 7-5 year....by definition that would be trending down. Not up. So previous regime results matter for guys like Les Miles but not for Riley? Got it. So essentially you are downgrading Riley because he performed above par compared to past historical results at Oregon St? If Riley would have sucked the first decade then we could all say..."welp this was a good hire because he kept the Oregon State program stagnant with all their 2-10 years. Derpy derp derp."
Trend -

a general direction in which something is developing or changing.

So no one year is not a trend maybe not even a couple of years depending on the overall trend time line - 3 years - 4 year? yes I would have to say that is time enough to tell its not due to abnormally high injuries or lack of time or some other factor that can be a short term problem
So you would have been super stocked with the Riley hire in 2008? Based on trends right? I wonder how he forgot how to coach from 2008 to present day.
 

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:
Originally posted by SnohomishRed:


Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:



Originally posted by SnohomishRed:



Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:




Originally posted by SnohomishRed:
You can use any time frame you want but the simple fact is OSU was trending down not up or even that is the concern and it is a valid one.

Now certainly it is harder to win at some schools that is why you look at trajectory - Les Miles at Okie state was trending up that is why LSU hired him and it paid off. Oregon state under Riley showed the same trend earlier on and that is why other schools wanted him. Lately however the trend is down and it is a concern. Even Riley admitted this last year at OSU

Now maybe the change will energize him, maybe his style of play is more suited to the Big10 and it is very possible he can do well here and I love what he has done so far during the transition.

Make no mistake however the downward trend at OSU is a concern all programs look at this. If not then a coach like Mack Brown would still be at Texas
In Les Miles last three years at OSU he went 8-5(5-3), 9-5(5-3), 7-5(4-4)........yeah trending "up."
Yes it is since the previous three years to that they went 13-20
He was hired after his 7-5 year....by definition that would be trending down. Not up. So previous regime results matter for guys like Les Miles but not for Riley? Got it. So essentially you are downgrading Riley because he performed above par compared to past historical results at Oregon St? If Riley would have sucked the first decade then we could all say..."welp this was a good hire because he kept the Oregon State program stagnant with all their 2-10 years. Derpy derp derp."
Trend -

a general direction in which something is developing or changing.

So no one year is not a trend maybe not even a couple of years depending on the overall trend time line - 3 years - 4 year? yes I would have to say that is time enough to tell its not due to abnormally high injuries or lack of time or some other factor that can be a short term problem
So you would have been super stocked with the Riley hire in 2008? Based on trends right? I wonder how he forgot how to coach from 2008 to present day.
Yes I would have at that point in time - now there are no guarantees for any coach but yes this would have made sense - now maybe as some have stated that since this period other factors have hurt OSU that were outside his control and this will not be a factor here - Its certainly possible.

One thing that is certain he has the ability to improve a program he showed that at OSU hopefully that translates to taking the next step up at NU.
 

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Sno, you're getting absolutely destroyed.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Really? now quit trying to make the argument personal because you have no valid position

Sorry I will not get sucked down that path


Sorry guys you win I have a meeting about to start - I will come back later to take my whooping

This post was edited on 4/7 10:36 AM by SnohomishRed
 

HuskerDana_rivals188993

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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Tom Osborne was 0-0 as a head coach prior to taking over Nebraska. Therefore, he should've been a lifetime .500 coach.

Les Miles was .570 as a head coach before taking over LSU with a 1-2 bowl record and no titles. Wait, he's .826 at LSU with 2 conference titles, and a national title.

Pete Carroll? .526 win percentage before taking over USC. You guessed it, .836 win % at USC, with 6 conference and 2 national titles.

Yep, there are no guarantees, regardless who the comparison is.

Bo Pelini had 7 seasons, produced 0 conference titles, 0 BCS bowl games, 0 top 10 finishes, blown out multiple times per year and embarrassed this great state, University, football program, athletic department, and fan base countless times.

So good luck cheering on the Penguins!

Posted from Rivals Mobile
Boom. Game over.
 

nebcountry

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I am more than happy to support the program. I hope that our current staff does well. The thought of a proverbial coaching wrong-turn that would set the program back for more years wouldn't make me happy. ITT, I agreed with RedCap, we can all stop with the soap boxing and wait for the games.

I read the OP. A lot of you agree with the OP, I don't agree with the implied message. Riley had measurable success at OSU, in conjunction with Dennis Erickson. Did Riley accomplish an other-worldly, insurmountable, better-than-sliced-bread feat, in my opinion no. Should we compare Riley to Les Miles and Pete Carroll? At this point in Riley's career, my answer is "no", unless you're joking.

You can pick his worst three years, his best three years, I just don't see anything to go hog-wild bragging about.
 

dinglefritz

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Originally posted by SnohomishRed:

Originally posted by dinglefritz:
Originally posted by SnohomishRed: I do support him and I do support the program - I would love for him to do well - However this is a discussion board and some people have concerns including me because of his lack of recent success. Is it not supporting the program to express those concerns?
NO. It is not. Not now. IF in 3 or 4 years from now he isn't winning, bring it up. Right now this team needs the whole fan base pulling for it without some people seeding doubt by expressing irrelevant opinions. We hired a damned good football coach that does things the right way. Expressing doubt because of past selected statistics does NOTHING to help the program. Nothing.
Sorry I did not get the propaganda memo - my mistake
You obviously have your own agenda. Undermining Riley seems to be at the top of your list.
 

NikkiSixx_rivals269993

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Regardless of what people think about Coach Riley, this will not likely be a long term arrangement. Five years tops is my guess. We will have a new chancellor, then a new AD, and then we get to do this whole thing over again. It's possible that we have a nice run though, but nothing about the current situation is long term.
 

dinglefritz

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Originally posted by NikkiSixx:
Regardless of what people think about Coach Riley, this will not likely be a long term arrangement. Five years tops is my guess. We will have a new chancellor, then a new AD, and then we get to do this whole thing over again. It's possible that we have a nice run though, but nothing about the current situation is long term.
Riley could go quite a while. There's an old 62 and a young 62. Riley appears to be a pretty young and fit 62. He could easily go 10 years IMO but if not Frost is still going to be out there.
 

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by dinglefritz:

Originally posted by SnohomishRed:


Originally posted by dinglefritz:

Originally posted by SnohomishRed:
I do support him and I do support the program - I would love for him to do well - However this is a discussion board and some people have concerns including me because of his lack of recent success. Is it not supporting the program to express those concerns?
NO. It is not. Not now. IF in 3 or 4 years from now he isn't winning, bring it up. Right now this team needs the whole fan base pulling for it without some people seeding doubt by expressing irrelevant opinions. We hired a damned good football coach that does things the right way. Expressing doubt because of past selected statistics does NOTHING to help the program. Nothing.
Sorry I did not get the propaganda memo - my mistake
You obviously have your own agenda. Undermining Riley seems to be at the top of your list.
Absolutely not correct - In fact I am excited and hope he does well here I love his demeanor and approach - I simply stated I have concerns which I do
 

SnohomishRed

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Originally posted by HuskerDana:

Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Tom Osborne was 0-0 as a head coach prior to taking over Nebraska. Therefore, he should've been a lifetime .500 coach. - No track record means nothing simply means no track record
It does not mean to discount an existing track record

Les Miles was .570 as a head coach before taking over LSU with a 1-2 bowl record and no titles. Wait, he's .826 at LSU with 2 conference titles, and a national title. Les Miles improved OSU from the previous 6 years - If you improve then that is an indication of future success( not guaranteed) there are differences between programs

Pete Carroll? .526 win percentage before taking over USC. You guessed it, .836 win % at USC, with 6 conference and 2 national titles. Coaching in the NFL does not translate to success in College nor really have much correlation - Saban failed in the NFL

Yep, there are no guarantees, regardless who the comparison is.

Bo Pelini had 7 seasons, produced 0 conference titles, 0 BCS bowl games, 0 top 10 finishes, blown out multiple times per year and embarrassed this great state, University, football program, athletic department, and fan base countless times.

that is why Bo is no longer here
So good luck cheering on the Penguins! Who are the Penguins is this an artic team


Posted from Rivals Mobile
Boom. Game over.
 

StretchLimousine

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Originally posted by 4.6.3:
How would you compare the taste of your thumb to the taste of what HPH feeds you?
Posted from Rivals Mobile
You are an angry individual. Flat out angry. You despise Bo and most everyone on his former NU staff. Are you a bitter human being that just loves to hate and degrade?
 

StretchLimousine

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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Originally posted by 500mileRadius:

Enough with the Osborne patience speak.
Nope, it's been stated here since 2008 that patience is needed with Pelini. So, patience it is with coach Riley.
Nope. Sorry HTO. No mulligans for Coach Riley. Husker Nation wants results and meaningful results now.
 

HuskerTimOmaha

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Originally posted by StretchLimousine:

Nope. Sorry HTO. No mulligans for Coach Riley. Husker Nation wants results and meaningful results now.
New account name, same ****.

"2008-2013, give Bo Pelini time, he's the next Tom Osborne." Yep, same thing applies to coach Riley, he has all the time in the world and you Huskerelini fans can't do a thing about it.
 

StretchLimousine

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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Originally posted by StretchLimousine:

Nope. Sorry HTO. No mulligans for Coach Riley. Husker Nation wants results and meaningful results now.
New account name, same ****.

"2008-2013, give Bo Pelini time, he's the next Tom Osborne." Yep, same thing applies to coach Riley, he has all the time in the world and you Huskerelini fans can't do a thing about it.
Not a new account name, bruh. I choose not to post much because this is a Internet message board based primarily on rumor and innuendo. I find most of your posts humorous, and quite frankly, sad. Sad because you waste tons of your life on this board as evidenced by your 50K post tally. So......as the long you believe the Gospel of HTO resides on Husker Board.....by all means post away. I, for one, am tired of seeing you personally attack other posters when you are on your heels. I bid you good day sir.
 

HuskerTimOmaha

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Originally posted by StretchLimousine:

Not a new account name, bruh. I choose not to post much because this is a Internet message board based primarily on rumor and innuendo. I find most of your posts humorous, and quite frankly, sad. Sad because you waste tons of your life on this board as evidenced by your 50K post tally. So......as the long you believe the Gospel of HTO resides on Husker Board.....by all means post away. I, for one, am tired of seeing you personally attack other posters when you are on your heels. I bid you good day sir.
That's never been stated before, good one, bruh. If you have anything that I've posted that wasn't a fact, then have it and spill the beans. I'm never on my heels, that's been proven over 11 years, and have yet to attack you, bruh.

Patiently waiting, (cough) lurker, don't disappoint like so many have in the past...
 

500mileRadius

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Originally posted by StretchLimousine:

Originally posted by 4.6.3:
How would you compare the taste of your thumb to the taste of what HPH feeds you?
Posted from Rivals Mobile
You are an angry individual. Flat out angry. You despise Bo and most everyone on his former NU staff. Are you a bitter human being that just loves to hate and degrade?
I've accepted that every neighborhood has a Scut Farkus and a Grover Dill.
 

HuskerTimOmaha

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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Originally posted by StretchLimousine:

Not a new account name, bruh. I choose not to post much because this is a Internet message board based primarily on rumor and innuendo. I find most of your posts humorous, and quite frankly, sad. Sad because you waste tons of your life on this board as evidenced by your 50K post tally. So......as the long you believe the Gospel of HTO resides on Husker Board.....by all means post away. I, for one, am tired of seeing you personally attack other posters when you are on your heels. I bid you good day sir.
That's never been stated before, good one, bruh. If you have anything that I've posted that wasn't a fact, then have it and spill the beans. I'm never on my heels, that's been proven over 11 years, and have yet to attack you, bruh.

Patiently waiting, (cough) lurker, don't disappoint like so many have in the past...