I seem to recall a game along those lines. I also remember a recruiting class with Anthony Gaines. I hope for the best. Being a Northwestern basketball fan has prepared me for the worst. I'd love to think that a decent game means Julian Roper will be an all-conference guard with NBA prospects. We'll just see. I don't envy Collins in the NIL/transfer era.
Collins
- Thread starter stpaulcat
- Start date
It’s really hard to see a scenario where we become a consistent winner in the conference. We just will always be short on athleticism/talent/skill, given our constraint. I don’t blame that on Collins, unlike other posters who somehow believe there is a unicorn coach waiting to be found. I’m not sure NIL will hurt dramatically, as I think our recruits are (for the most part) inherently a bit of a different breed than the average D1 player. But, that’s hard to say. We’re likely going to continue to fight the good academic / sports fight, and I like Collins’ fight.
If life were static, I would agree with you. Is it also possible that Collins is finally building the program he was brought to NU to build, or do you believe he has a ceiling?
They had one scholarships available the year they took Gaines. We’re you expecting LeBron, DWade and Bosh?
This is my feeling. On the one hand, we feel really close to improving our conference position because, if we could better finish out games, 7-13 could easily become like 12-8. But that’s a huge if and we’ve seen no evidence in the past five years of that happening. And barring some immediate increase in wins, I don’t see how we’ll be better next year.
And yes it is hard to win at NU but that shouldn’t mean that we are satisfied with playing on the first day of the Big 10 Tournament every year even if we appear better and more competitive.
This is a weird comment.
Collins has not done particularly well at NU.
To say he is beyond criticism is bizarre to me.
Every coach needs to be evaluated on his ability to recruit, develop, evaluate and get the most out of his players.
It is completely legitimate, in fact necessary, to evaluate him based on the performance of the team, with an emphasis on wins and losses in the conference.
Or do you think the fact that the players are trying is enough to declare that Collins is a good coach and should be retained?
It’s weird if you misinterpret it, PWB. Neither StPaulCat nor anyone else said CCC is beyond criticism. He and I and others are just saying his firing is not justified at this time.
Sorry, SPC, not returning my diploma, and you can appeal to Lou or Fla re posting privileges. He's just not doing it. I'm a flexible guy. If he turns it ar I around, I'll change my mind. But I don't expect it. Looks like yet another losing season to me. And the team is not young.
Heck, everyone complains about how he uses the Young player he has! /s
If you're wrong, we're just gonna yank your diploma. We'll find a way.
I was a student at Penn in the early 1970's when Chuck Daly, Rollie MassImino and Dick Harter came in as coaches (a triumvirate of great coaches). The way their teams played initially reminded me a lot of last week's Wisconsin game. Then they got better, and only Magic Johnson prevented them from a national title. I remember one morning during that time, spotting John Wooden on the college green, who must have been either a spy or an adviser. Unless NU is somehow imposing a ceiling on NU basketball, we might expect the same from Collins. I'm more concerned about the NU effect than Collins. It's like there is a mysterious force, you know, a glass ceiling.
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If you're wrong, we're just gonna yank your diploma. We'll find a way.
I was a student at Penn in the early 1970's when Chuck Daly, Rollie MassImino and Dick Harter came in as coaches (a triumvirate of great coaches). The way their teams played initially reminded me a lot of last week's Wisconsin game. Then they got better, and only Magic Johnson prevented them from a national title. I remember one morning during that time, spotting John Wooden on the college green, who must have been either a spy or an adviser. Unless NU is somehow imposing a ceiling on NU basketball, we might expect the same from Collins. I'm more concerned about the NU effect than Collins. It's like there is a mysterious force, you know, a glass ceiling.
When Daly took over for Harter in 1971 (and brought in Massimino), they were two years into a streak of winning the Ivy League 11 times in 13 years, were coming off an Elite 8 appearance, and promptly went right back to the Elite 8. And that streak started in Harter's 4th year, not his 10th. If Collins' NU teams were playing like that I promise nobody would be complaining.
That's what I'm getting at, an Ivy league team at the top of college basketball because someone at Penn decided being at the bottom of the Big Five was not satisfactory and that being at the top would mean national prominence, It was an institutional decision, and they hired great coaches and allowed them the players they needed, some of which were Ivy academically quallified and some were just great basketball players. I do not believe NU has figured this out, which could be quite simple were one to put aside the pretentious academic elite BS and get Collins what he needs. I do not believe Collins is the issue here.
It would be an absolute disgrace if Northwestern put the basketball team ahead of the university.
Gordie - thats what you're saying. You don't believe he deserves to be fired. Thats fine.
What stpaulcat said is that no one should ever be allowed to remotely suggest that Collins be fired. Thats crazy talk.
I believe that Collins should be fired unless he gets this team to the postseason.
Does NU Admissions make academic exceptions for Women's Lacrosse, Field Hockey, Softball, or Basketball; or for Gary Barnett, for that matter, that they are not making for Football or Men's Basketball? They've seemed to have done alright.
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Is there a professional Woman’s Lacrosse, Field Hockey, Softball league? How much can players earn? I think the NU pitch of life after graduation resonates much more with non-revenue sports. Many revenue recruits envision themselves on ESPN. I’ve said it plenty of times, the entirety of the powers to be at NU have to be pulling the rope in the same direction. Just isn’t happening. That top 10 academic rating is in peril if we make any deeper concessions.
At the danger of generalizing too much, a lot of those sports you mentioned draws from a different demographic. While still challenging to get the right student-athletes, I think we all acknowledge that the eligible pool is much smaller for men's basketball and football.
I suspect you know that Northwestern already does what you note that Penn did and what Penn and other Ivy League schools also currently do - lower entrance requirements for basketball players below what they would need to qualify for the school absent basketball. Your quibble is with how much.
How much did Penn lower them? What are they currently at Northwestern and where do you advocate they be lowered to? Before I can know if I support it, I'd need people who advocate for this approach to express what they think the appropriate criteria is.
Yes, there are.
$35,000-$70,000.
Average G League salary is $35,000.
The difference of course is the upside and most 18-year olds envision themselves as the kid who is going to realize the upside.
That said, I agree that it's helpful for everyone to be pulling the rope in the same direction. I suspect the disconnect is that some people think the university should be focused on its academic mission while others think it should be focused on its "revenue" sports athletic mission. Those two missions aren't in alignment in the current D1 college "revenue" sports environment.
What are they? Why do you think they are the same as each other? Why are they the magic elixir for Duke, but Vandy has a record right on par with Northwestern?
The reported offer list is interesting. They were pretty all-in on Eastern.
Oh ok then, let's just have the same academic standards as Duke and the same W and L records.
Each person comes to the University with different skills, and admission should be based on those. There's little difference between a superb athlete and a superb student except for the nature of their superbness. It's just a different type of intelligence. Do you believe athletics to be superfluous to an education? Many that don't get admitted can easily graduate Northwestern, it is getting admitted that is difficult.
Speaking of Anthony Gaines...
He's with Siena, playing good minutes. Last 4 games he has played 39, 30, 38, 39 minutes.
He is rebounding more (averaging 6 per game).
He almost never tries a 3-pointer.
In his last 6 games he has taken 49 shots. Only two were 3 pointers and he missed both.
Hard-nosed player, but never a shooter.
Played more minutes for NU last year than Ryan Young...
It's called the Corbi school of defending coaches when they may not be the problem. My belief is that the problem is bigger than Collins. Some say he's a bad coach, I just don't agree (yet). I can't revoke your degree because you don't agree with that, that was hyperbole.
Why not Vandy's standards? Maybe they are looser than Duke's? Maybe they are more stringent? What are Northwestern's currently? How are they different? It sounds like you don't actually know what you are advocating for.
I know that he's not a Top 100 recruit, but that Luke Garza guy may turn out to be a decent college player.
And you do??? Let's just have the same admission standards as Duke and win as many games.
You never know where you will find a good coach- Harter started at Rider . Rider was a national power in baseball during the 60's under Tom Petroff, who gave me some, possibly, lifesaving advice in 1965
I'm not the one advocating for something to change.
Put up or shut for once, Willy. Tell me specifically what you are wanting to do other than "win as many games" as Duke. You want Baj to run the touchdown play, too?
so in the case of Duke, abandon all pretense that they are a student. A "one and done" player only needs to maintain eligibility for one semester. That's just not interesting to me. At that point, as Seinfeld put it, "you're rooting for laundry"
For what it’s worth, I’ve not missed anything since putting Willy on ignore a few years ago. It’s just shouting.
When I attended NU, I attended almost every home football game and probably 75% - 90% of conference home basketball games. I attended a few women's volleyball games. It was important to me to be involved and support classmates representing NU athletically.
But times have changed. Students at NU care less about that now.
And Northwestern has already lowered its standards fairly significantly for basketball and football.
Presumably lowered them (but not as much) for all sports. We do fine in a lot of different sports.
Personally, I think what Duke does to get players is really bad and I think less of the university than I otherwise would.
To me, winning the right way is awesome. Winning the wrong way is pathetic.
100% agree. Nevertheless, it is the state of college athletics, so what do we do? No way we leave the B1G, too much money and notoriety for the university, although U Chicago seems to be doing ok without big time athletics. Can't continue in our current status as punching bag - that's not a sustainable option. Nobody wants to play for the Washington Generals. I just don't know (but I'm not paid millions to figure it out). Seems to me that the premise of CCC in the first place was to go toe-to-toe with the blue bloods, and win enough (recruiting and games) to keep us in the post season (NCAA or NIT) with regularity. Something like Wake Forest, perhaps?
But it looks like this model doesn't work. We don't win enough using this model. Couldn't we emulate teams like Xavier, Providence, and Loyola? Or, pick other mid-majors like Butler that had their day in the sun. It's not like these teams would win the B1G, but they wouldn't average 5-6 B1G wins a year. They'd be competitive and win their share. Sort of like football until we collapsed this year. But this continued "tenth or worse" is getting old
The world has definitely changed, at least for basketball and football, because of the transfer portal.
To me, that is not necessarily a negative for Northwestern basketball.
Will guys with NBA dreams seek to transfer to "big time" programs? Yes, some will. Do we get that sort of player in the first place? Sometimes, but not often.
On the flipside, are there players out there who flew under the radar out of high school, but have pretty solid academic credentials and have proven they can play at the mid-majors? Absolutely.
Are there guys who have played 4 years, done well in school and wouldn't mind getting a Masters degree from Northwestern? I think there are. Most college students are ready to move on after 4 years in one place.
So we can fill holes with talented guys from other schools and will probably lose 1 of every 2 "really talented" guys who transfer to schools promising them the world.
Until the coach is able to upgrade the program.... then the transfer portal starts to swing our way.
NU made a mistake hiring a guy with no head-coaching experience with no ties to the university.
Just my opinion.
Guess we could match the likes of Xavier, Providence and Loyola if we had the same admission standards.