Comparing Programs

[FrontierLion]

Someone made the comment in another thread that "Penn State football as we knew it is gone."

It got me thinking about our program compared to others. I feel like the current state of Penn State football might be a microcosm of the current social media culture, where image is more important than reality. We seem to be more showy than the program has ever been i.e. - neon lights in the tunnel, lawnboyz chains, helmet stripe crowds, pregame fireworks, etc... but rarely produce the on-field results we so truly desire. There are certainly exceptions (Dotson a prime example.)

So my question - and I don't know the answer to this - is how do we compare in that regard to Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia, even Michigan? Only judging by watching games and not looking at news stories all season or following other programs on twitter, etc, it seems they are more blue collar, lunch pale and hard hat type programs than we are. Their head coaches seem to strike fear in their players, which in turn creates a take-care-of-business type mindset that I feel we just don't have.

I honestly don't know, but thought it might be a good discussion.

 

[MacNit]

Someone made the comment in another thread that "Penn State football as we knew it is gone."

It got me thinking about our program compared to others. I feel like the current state of Penn State football might be a microcosm of the current social media culture, where image is more important than reality. We seem to be more showy than the program has ever been i.e. - neon lights in the tunnel, lawnboyz chains, helmet stripe crowds, pregame fireworks, etc... but rarely produce the on-field results we so truly desire. There are certainly exceptions (Dotson a prime example.)

So my question - and I don't know the answer to this - is how do we compare in that regard to Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia, even Michigan? Only judging by watching games and not looking at news stories all season or following other programs on twitter, etc, it seems they are more blue collar, lunch pale and hard hat type programs than we are. Their head coaches seem to strike fear in their players, which in turn creates a take-care-of-business type mindset that I feel we just don't have.

I honestly don't know, but thought it might be a good discussion.

Precisely!

 

[Catch1lion]

I don’t think Saban is a peach . Games are easy after he busts your balls all week

 

[ManxomeLion]

Someone made the comment in another thread that "Penn State football as we knew it is gone."

It got me thinking about our program compared to others. I feel like the current state of Penn State football might be a microcosm of the current social media culture, where image is more important than reality. We seem to be more showy than the program has ever been i.e. - neon lights in the tunnel, lawnboyz chains, helmet stripe crowds, pregame fireworks, etc... but rarely produce the on-field results we so truly desire. There are certainly exceptions (Dotson a prime example.)

So my question - and I don't know the answer to this - is how do we compare in that regard to Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia, even Michigan? Only judging by watching games and not looking at news stories all season or following other programs on twitter, etc, it seems they are more blue collar, lunch pale and hard hat type programs than we are. Their head coaches seem to strike fear in their players, which in turn creates a take-care-of-business type mindset that I feel we just don't have.

I honestly don't know, but thought it might be a good discussion.

Has nothing to do with social media culture IMHO.
Franklin's experience in coaching is in underdog programs where the "go for broke" mentality of explosive plays was the sole chance to win.
It's important, but he seems to struggle with developing consistent, fundamentally sound squads.
The assistant coaching carousel also needs to stop and stabilize.

 

[DaytonRickster]

Someone made the comment in another thread that "Penn State football as we knew it is gone."

It got me thinking about our program compared to others. I feel like the current state of Penn State football might be a microcosm of the current social media culture, where image is more important than reality. We seem to be more showy than the program has ever been i.e. - neon lights in the tunnel, lawnboyz chains, helmet stripe crowds, pregame fireworks, etc... but rarely produce the on-field results we so truly desire. There are certainly exceptions (Dotson a prime example.)

So my question - and I don't know the answer to this - is how do we compare in that regard to Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia, even Michigan? Only judging by watching games and not looking at news stories all season or following other programs on twitter, etc, it seems they are more blue collar, lunch pale and hard hat type programs than we are. Their head coaches seem to strike fear in their players, which in turn creates a take-care-of-business type mindset that I feel we just don't have.

I honestly don't know, but thought it might be a good discussion.

Main problem is PSU lacks physical dominance. Until this coaching staff realizes you must be more physical to win this league, the drift to the bottom will continue. The lack of consistent physical play from both lines has been very evident the last two seasons.
Michigan changed their philosophy and look at the results. You cannot win the B1G if you cannot control the LOS.

 

[MaconNitt]

 

[Nits1989]

We have gotten a bit hokey. When you don’t win, it looks like you are “all show, no go.”

 

[FrontierLion]

We have gotten a bit hokey. When you don’t win, it looks like you are “all show, no go.”

Good point. I guess none of the pomp irritates me if we're winning while doing it. All comes back to the W's and L's.

 

[psupride1997]

I think for a lot of us, it has now truly sunk in that PSU, as we used to know it, is officially dead.
We are more like Minnesota or Purdue than OSU or Michigan. And with JF at the helm, that’s not going to change anytime soon.

 

[Big_O]

Under Franklin Penn State has become all hat, no cattle. Showy, highly thought of recruits but soft, unprepared and undisciplined.

 

[donaldfair71]

Sometimes it seems like there is some magic potion involved, but the fact is we don’t block well as those guys, tackle well as those guys.
And I can’t remember the last “big” game, other than Iowa this year, where we went in with the better QB.

 

[donaldfair71]

I think for a lot of us, it has now truly sunk in that PSU, as we used to know it, is officially dead.
We are more like Minnesota or Purdue than OSU or Michigan. And with JF at the helm, that’s not going to change anytime soon.

Unfortunately, that is not far off, and a 10 year contract after 11-10 only reinforces that.
If the leverage was to get better facilities, and you were willing to go 10 with JF even if it meant getting facilities, get the facilities anyway and sell that to a better coach.

 

[JoeBot409]

Not to go moral victory, but we don't really ever get blown out by a team. On the flip side, we struggle to beat good to really good teams. I think the team has the talent and had the talent. The NFL has a lot of young PSU players making an impact; Parsons, Oweh, Friermuth, Sanders, Barkley, the CB for Detroit, Allen Robinson, Gieseke, Godwin, etc. The team loses their edge after they lose the first game. It was all down hill after Iowa. And years past with Barkley and McSorley, it was downhill after losing to OSU.

 

[delcoLion]

You know what the old players’ nickname for Joe was, right?
I don’t know what’s going on, I don’t have the expertise to be anything other than a fan. It seems to me that there is a lack of fundamentals, from individual players (this looks like a poor tackling team) to Franklin’s offensive approach, where after multiple OCs and OL coaches, we still can’t block the likes of Villanova.

I think PSU has a long way to go before it can solve these issues.

 

[psu31trap]

From a football perspective everyone’s observation is pretty much correct. However, from the Universities perspective coach Franklin is the cats meow.

 

[MaconNitt]

nothing that a few top recruiting class years can't fix.

next years class is a good start.

 

[Michaelion]

James is in over his head and deep down he knows it.

The sanctions are long gone
Great to Elite hasn’t happened
2020 Covid throwaway season wasn’t a fluke

He’s not that good but his agent is and the PSU brain trust is an easy mark

 

[MacNit]

Main problem is PSU lacks physical dominance. Until this coaching staff realizes you must be more physical to win this league, the drift to the bottom will continue. The lack of consistent physical play from both lines has been very evident the last two seasons.
Michigan changed their philosophy and look at the results. You cannot win the B1G if you cannot control the LOS.

Yes indeed! Corrective action needs to be made…but the opportunity was missed…expect more of the same.

 

[psu31trap]

James is in over his head and deep down he knows it.

The sanctions are long gone
Great to Elite hasn’t happened
2020 Covid throwaway season wasn’t a fluke

He’s not that good but his agent is and the PSU brain trust is an easy mark

Your post is spot on. However, the PSU brain trust is making a statement with this 10 year contract. To me, that statement says, having a guy run a squeaky clean program trumps W’s.

 

[canuckhal]

Someone made the comment in another thread that "Penn State football as we knew it is gone."

It got me thinking about our program compared to others. I feel like the current state of Penn State football might be a microcosm of the current social media culture, where image is more important than reality. We seem to be more showy than the program has ever been i.e. - neon lights in the tunnel, lawnboyz chains, helmet stripe crowds, pregame fireworks, etc... but rarely produce the on-field results we so truly desire. There are certainly exceptions (Dotson a prime example.)

So my question - and I don't know the answer to this - is how do we compare in that regard to Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia, even Michigan? Only judging by watching games and not looking at news stories all season or following other programs on twitter, etc, it seems they are more blue collar, lunch pale and hard hat type programs than we are. Their head coaches seem to strike fear in their players, which in turn creates a take-care-of-business type mindset that I feel we just don't have.

I honestly don't know, but thought it might be a good discussion.

The teams you mentioned, including Michigan, all have more talent than Penn State. Penn State has some talent at some positions, but lacks depth. The holes at PSU get exposed as the season progresses. While OSU has been mostly able to overcome their mistakes, PSU cannot. Even OSU couldn't today.

I mentioned in another thread that PSU seems to have a Covid hang-over this season. Franklin needs to change the culture that seems to have developed now for two years. I'm not sure if it is the lack of depth at some positions, where some players are too comfortable or not. This team plays hard, but seems to lack the confidence to close out games and make the necessary plays at key times.

 

[donaldfair71]

The teams you mentioned, including Michigan, all have more talent than Penn State. Penn State has some talent at some positions, but lacks depth. The holes at PSU get exposed as the season progresses. While OSU has been mostly able to overcome their mistakes, PSU cannot. Even OSU couldn't today.

I mentioned in another thread that PSU seems to have a Covid hang-over this season. Franklin needs to change the culture that seems to have developed now for two years. I'm not sure if it is the lack of depth at some positions, where some players are too comfortable or not. This team plays hard, but seems to lack the confidence to close out games and make the necessary plays at key times.

Ehh I think Michigan us every bit as talented as PSU, no doubt.
But watching that game, it didn’t come down to some war of attrition that challenged depth charts. It came down to an offense that couldn’t finish inside the 20, an unsuccessful FG fake, and a QB that couldn’t complete passes after the 1st quarter (and it wasn’t always from pressure- the Lovett miss right after the sack-fumble is a play you have to make). Throw in a miscommunication on a long TD and voila, you have a loss. Those aren’t depth chart issues, those are execution issues and mental lapses from the top down.
The culture thing you nailed. I think players are very comfortable, and that’s noticeable in tackling and blocking most of all: guys that don’t do them well continue to play. Against Michigan, even on the first scoring drive, there were just inexcusable whiffs on every play. From guys who had done so all year.

 

[psuno1]

I think for a lot of us, it has now truly sunk in that PSU, as we used to know it, is officially dead.
We are more like Minnesota or Purdue than OSU or Michigan. And with JF at the helm, that’s not going to change anytime soon.

Wait till next year it will be a train wreak.

 

[Nittany1865Farmer]

PSU, in my opinion, is looking like Northwestern in the Big 10 with Pat Fitzgerald being a Franklin protégé. Northwestern had nothing to lose when they hired Pat and he made progress with the team. They had some very good individual players and made noise once every so many years, but now are back in the background again and Pat is still there because he's "one of them" and is a good face for the program. Franklin is a good face for PSU, but at the expense of having highly talented guys once in a while and we will beat teams, but will not develop a dynasty run like the OSU's and the Miami's of the past.

 

[FrontierLion]

Ehh I think Michigan us every bit as talented as PSU, no doubt.
But watching that game, it didn’t come down to some war of attrition that challenged depth charts. It came down to an offense that couldn’t finish inside the 20, an unsuccessful FG fake, and a QB that couldn’t complete passes after the 1st quarter (and it wasn’t always from pressure- the Lovett miss right after the sack-fumble is a play you have to make). Throw in a miscommunication on a long TD and voila, you have a loss. Those aren’t depth chart issues, those are execution issues and mental lapses from the top down.
The culture thing you nailed. I think players are very comfortable, and that’s noticeable in tackling and blocking most of all: guys that don’t do them well continue to play. Against Michigan, even on the first scoring drive, there were just inexcusable whiffs on every play. From guys who had done so all year.

One other thing I think a lot of us are missing is that there doesn't seem to be any player leadership on this team. A good football team has a leader(s) that puts a stop to all the nonsense or is able to inspire his teammates to a point where one loss doesn't turn into 3 or 4. We don't seem to have that guy - or group of guys - with this batch of players. See: MRob.

That would account for some of the last two seasons feeling "meh" the way they did. Get a different group of kids in here and it could turn around. We need an MRob.

 

[CyphaPSU]

In our comparisons to other programs, I think we should stop putting Michigan on a pedestal and lumping them in with the elites. They’ve had one very good season in how long? We’ve been neck-n-neck with them in recruited talent rankings for a while. They’ve finished behind us in the standings how many times in the last few years?

Our program is underachieving because of the same problem that has been there for several seasons: the trenches on both sides, and especially the offensive line. I view this as bigger than the QB issue. Sometimes the problem has been masked by an offense that can get things done with explosive plays, but when we’ve needed just a few yards in crunch time how many times have we been disappointed? How many times do we fail to preserve wins in obvious running situations? We will continue to underachieve what we should otherwise be capable of doing (given the size of our program and overall ability to recruit) until something changes with how we can attract and develop linemen. I’m not going to apologize for this…we should not be regularly struggling with teams like MSU. It mostly stems from the problems along the lines.

 

[CyphaPSU]

The teams you mentioned, including Michigan, all have more talent than Penn State. Penn State has some talent at some positions, but lacks depth. The holes at PSU get exposed as the season progresses. While OSU has been mostly able to overcome their mistakes, PSU cannot. Even OSU couldn't today.

According to this year's 247 Team Talent Composite, Michigan is ranked 15 and we are ranked...16. Michigan and us have been close like this for a few years. Overall talent is not the issue between us (hence, even in a year we are struggling and they are flying, we still played them very closely and could have won). The difference is that they've done a better job with defensive and offensive linemen than we have. That's the big the story.

 

[JoeLion]

If you can’t run the ball when you need to or stop the run when you need to you will lose 8/9 out of 10 games.

 

[donaldfair71]

In our comparisons to other programs, I think we should stop putting Michigan on a pedestal and lumping them in with the elites. They’ve had one very good season in how long? We’ve been neck-n-neck with them in recruited talent rankings for a while. They’ve finished behind us in the standings how many times in the last few years?

Our program is underachieving because of the same problem that has been there for several seasons: the trenches on both sides, and especially the offensive line. I view this as bigger than the QB issue. Sometimes the problem has been masked by an offense that can get things done with explosive plays, but when we’ve needed just a few yards in crunch time how many times have we been disappointed? How many times do we fail to preserve wins in obvious running situations? We will continue to underachieve what we should otherwise be capable of doing (given the size of our program and overall ability to recruit) until something changes with how we can attract and develop linemen. I’m not going to apologize for this…we should not be regularly struggling with teams like MSU. It mostly stems from the problems along the lines.

To be clear, I’m not comparing us to Michigan because I find them Elite. Far from it. I’m comparing them to Michigan because they’re most like us the last half decade. That’s the problem.

 

[donaldfair71]

One other thing I think a lot of us are missing is that there doesn't seem to be any player leadership on this team. A good football team has a leader(s) that puts a stop to all the nonsense or is able to inspire his teammates to a point where one loss doesn't turn into 3 or 4. We don't seem to have that guy - or group of guys - with this batch of players. See: MRob.

That would account for some of the last two seasons feeling "meh" the way they did. Get a different group of kids in here and it could turn around. We need an MRob.

Sorry, leadership comes from the top down as much as players becoming these great leaders. With 100 guys in the locker room, you’ll find plenty of people leading if those people feel like the coaching staff has their backs and will reinforce the kick in the rears of peers.
But the natural leaders won’t say a word if they believe that the staff will still play the same underachieving guys regardless. Or reward seniority. They just lose hope and fall in line.
Imagine being a QB at PSU the last 3 years and watching SC play the way he does, then never really seeing anyone else get a committed shot. Don’t blame the other guys one bit for leaving. Levis got a cup of coffee in a pandemic year against a really tough defense, then that was that.

 

[Nitt1300]

What Penn State football did you "know"? 1967-1978? 1999-2010? some other period?

Those weren't nearly the same things.

Things will get better, or they will get worse- what they won't do is stay the same.

 

[Big_O]

Great to Elite hasn’t happened

He’s not that good but his agent is and the PSU brain trust is an easy mark

It has become Great to less than mediocre. Absolutely terrible job performance.

But the natural leaders won’t say a word if they believe that the staff will still play the same underachieving guys regardless. Or reward seniority. They just lose hope and fall in line.

This was a problem with another former coach who refused to retire before he was fired for something that had nothing to do with his coaching ability and was pretty much a publicity stunt to divert attention from who really were responsible for the situation.

 

[lemonears]

The team reflects Franklin's personality. He is a huggy, friendly, pleasant, smiley, back-slapping type of guy. That is why he recruits so well and that is why his players are happy and love to dance around on the field. I imagine they are the same way in practice. His players are not tough. They are not mean. Nobody is scared of Penn State's players. After each game they run to the other side and hug everyone they see. Franklin forgives mental lapses. Just ask Joey Porter! He values player happiness above all else. Franklin is the anti-Joe coach.

 

[BobPSU92]

PSU is committed to Franklin.

Franklin is committed to PSU.

We all need to be committed.

 

[contentphillydad]

From a football perspective everyone’s observation is pretty much correct. However, from the Universities perspective coach Franklin is the cats meow.

Well stated

 

[Big_O]

The team reflects Franklin's personality. He is a huggy, friendly, pleasant, smiley, back-slapping type of guy. That is why he recruits so well and that is why his players are happy and love to dance around on the field. I imagine they are the same way in practice. His players are not tough. They are not mean. Nobody is scared of Penn State's players. After each game they run to the other side and hug everyone they see. Franklin forgives mental lapses. Just ask Joey Porter! He values player happiness above all else. Franklin is the anti-Joe coach.

Exactly. He “leads with love.” I guess as a player/recruit, if you just want to have fun and not necessarily care about winning, Penn State is the place to go. But with this goes some lack of competitiveness, lack of overall toughness and lack of grit and determination. Hey, we didn’t win, but we had a great time! These are the type of players that will come to PSU. I wouldn’t say it’s a loser mentality, but more of a laissez faire mentality.

 

[PSU Chicago]

Ehh I think Michigan us every bit as talented as PSU, no doubt. .....................................
I think players are very comfortable, and that’s noticeable in tackling and blocking most of all: guys that don’t do them well continue to play. Against Michigan, even on the first scoring drive, there were just inexcusable whiffs on every play. From guys who had done so all year.

Maybe they remain in the game due to lack of depth and real competition at every position?

 

[donaldfair71]

Maybe they remain in the game due to lack of depth and real competition at every position?

Fair, but when it’s so very bad, you lose nothing by playing backups. And they do have guys that have been in the program in those spots. It wasn’t like “ehh that was a bad play, but here’s where they played better”. It was wholly bad.
If it’s a case where even THOSE guys are so much worse than the starters, you have introduced a new issue that really needs highlighted: there’s zero improvement on campus.
That, or they’re putting guys in position to fail.

 

[NEPA Lion]

For an all everything Linebacker # 12 stinks, he lunges his shoulder into runners or avoids them so he doesn't spoil his draft status with an injury.

KLS constantly drops passes, Kevon Lee needs to lose some weight off those tree trunks and get quicker.Freshman help is on the way thank goodness.

Clifford can't play hurt not even 97% it shows on his runs example = Auburn vs. post Iowa, his decision process is too slow since then, he looks for the deep ball way too much. Christian V. checked down better, threw on the run better, and ran better. Don't bother with the Rutgers rhetoric, Scianno's been around and threw different looks at CVl Being a hurt leader doesn't get wins.Looking ahead what i saw with Christian was more of a Mike Yurchich developed qb, Cliff had too many teachers and seems to do what he wants more than what's designed. He takes an eternity to audible into a one yard running play.

I do not know about weight programs or legal supplements but when Iowa, MSU, UM, OSU, Minnesota, and even Illinois push you around , something is amiss, and something has got to change. Keep up with the Joneses as they say.

Don't praise Michigan too much their two key defenders came back along with a sturdy running game, we lose two key defenders on the to injury and i think Oweh could be counted along with them . Since the loss of Journey and Cain's injury, plus Ford's the running game crash dived.

Getting to the OP the portal killed us, we lost more than we gained, Levis leaving was a dagger in the heart. Too many assistant coaching changes, and player injuries, attitude, and entitlement due to longevity just made things worse. Franklin dicking around with his coaching chain jerking since his 5-0 started did not help the atmosphere.

 

[lemonears]

Exactly. He “leads with love.” I guess as a player/recruit, if you just want to have fun and not necessarily care about winning, Penn State is the place to go. But with this goes some lack of competitiveness, lack of overall toughness and lack of grit and determination. Hey, we didn’t win, but we had a great time! These are the type of players that will come to PSU. I wouldn’t say it’s a loser mentality, but more of a laissez faire mentality.

Exactly. You said it better than I did.

 

[Alphalion75]

Someone made the comment in another thread that "Penn State football as we knew it is gone."

It got me thinking about our program compared to others. I feel like the current state of Penn State football might be a microcosm of the current social media culture, where image is more important than reality. We seem to be more showy than the program has ever been i.e. - neon lights in the tunnel, lawnboyz chains, helmet stripe crowds, pregame fireworks, etc... but rarely produce the on-field results we so truly desire. There are certainly exceptions (Dotson a prime example.)

So my question - and I don't know the answer to this - is how do we compare in that regard to Alabama, Ohio State, Georgia, even Michigan? Only judging by watching games and not looking at news stories all season or following other programs on twitter, etc, it seems they are more blue collar, lunch pale and hard hat type programs than we are. Their head coaches seem to strike fear in their players, which in turn creates a take-care-of-business type mindset that I feel we just don't have.

I honestly don't know, but thought it might be a good discussion.

You are correct in your analysis. Franklin believes in keeping the environment positive to a fault. He gives the kids a pat on the back when they make a bad play, hoping it will encourage them to do better the next time. But he should know better, because he's a parent.