Covid and vaccinations

[entropy13]

-the hell are you talking about...I'm not arguing against you, kid. Note the phrase "as well".

-ive noticed the misuse of "strawman" by people who have apparently never studied logic (it's an actual science). What you are accusing me of here is a red herring fallacy...but you'd be wrong there as well.

-im just going to assume I hurt your feelings because you are fat. That's an example of an ad hominem fallacy.

Oh, please. You're attempting to be cute now. Your "as well" statement about how smokers, heavy drinkers, and fat people are also a strain on the health system was clearly an attempt to refute the public interest argument by an enlarging the original issue about vaccines being in the public interest.

You were attempting (and failing) to refute the public interest argument about Covid vaccines by raising unrelated and irrelevant groups and thus drawing it to an extreme conclusion while never addressing the underlying point. In other words, you were replacing the real subject of the argument with a false one, which is part and parcel of what a strawman argument is, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man. Perhaps you need a refresher course in Logic yourself. I do agree that you're half-right in mentioning the red herring fallacy, as your post was also an attempt to misdirect, but then you say it wasn't, which is clearly disingenuous.

And nope, I'm thankfully not overweight, so you didn't hurt my feelings. Anyway, I hope I didn't hurt *your* feelings by dragging my rhetorical nuts across your rhetorical face and smearing your rhetorical makeup, princess.

 

[Rebelfreedomeagle]

The Gastroenterologists that would normally perform that procedure get re-assigned to the ICUs where unvaccinated COVID patients are. They use their equipment and expertise to hunt for and measure brain function.

I've had a parent hospitalized for emergency surgery twice in the last few months. The second time was 2 weeks ago and staff just described the surge as "awful". It took most of the day to get a room after surgery because they were at capacity.

 

[rudd1]

-a "strawman" is creating a false position then attacking said position, as it were. You were 100% wrong. It's ok. I'm sorry If I embarrassed you, sincerely.

-again, red herring is closer to what you "think" I was doing...but thankfully you don't get to define my intent. I'm pro vax, myself, my spouse and kids are vaccinated.

-there is no original argument, this thread is all over the place. You could argue that my post obfuscated *your* desired point by throwing other issues into the mix.. maybe, not my concern.

-no hurt feelings... wouldn't be even if you had accomplished what believed you had accomplished(dragging nuts/princess...how old are you?)...it's a message board.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I've had a parent hospitalized for emergency surgery twice in the last few months. The second time was 2 weeks ago and staff just described the surge as "awful". It took most of the day to get a room after surgery because they were at capacity.

It’s examples like this that make the arguments maddening for me. I continue to try to understand how people won’t take it seriously, and how when offered a vaccination, free of charge, people continue to say “no thanks!”.

 

[jameslee32]

I am not offended by it but you lose any credibility in an argument when you act like a little kid by calling people names and acting like they are inferior to you.

No name calling in this thread but I will defend myself. Maybe direct your anger towards an administration that started a movement in name calling so perverse that it's ingrained in half of American society in 2021.

 

[jameslee32]

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

Summarizing a video I saw the other day from a doctor, who was saying things that I've seen elsewhere and that can be independently researched and verified: There has never in history been any vaccine that had unknown effects that appeared years after vaccination. There have been multiple viruses that have unknown effects that appear years after infection.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Summarizing a video I saw the other day from a doctor, who was saying things that I've seen elsewhere and that can be independently researched and verified: There has never in history been any vaccine that had unknown effects that appeared years after vaccination. There have been multiple viruses that have unknown effects that appear years after infection.

Off the top of my head, didn’t Gardisil have a bunch of side effects and get pulled from the market? And that was FDA approved unlike the covid shots.

 

[8titles_rivals270261]

I think its very interesting that there are exactly zero studies around those that are not vaccinated but have had COVID. Or more important what is the bodies response to the variant for those that have had COVID but aren’t vaccinated.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

I think its very interesting that there are exactly zero studies around those that are not vaccinated but have had COVID. Or more important what is the bodies response to the variant for those that have had COVID but aren’t vaccinated.

Sure there are, one of mostly done Aug 1st that says no need to get the vax if you have the anti-bodies and they provide more protection.

But those studies don't count because they go against the pro- Covid vax Goebbelists.

 

[Deeeefense]

I think its very interesting that there are exactly zero studies around those that are not vaccinated but have had COVID. Or more important what is the bodies response to the variant for those that have had COVID but aren’t vaccinated.

That would be a hard thing to isolate into a clinical study, but the reports I have heard say that having COVID does in fact provide some level of immunity, but I don't think anyone has been able to track if it reduces the severity if you catch it again. A friend of mine caught it twice. The second time was not as bad for whatever that's worth.
It's also interesting to note that there is some evidence that even if you have had COVID getting the vax gives you some additional level of protection.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

That would be a hard thing to isolate into a clinical study, but the reports I have heard say that having COVID does in fact provide some level of immunity, but I don't think anyone has been able to track if it reduces the severity if you catch it again. A friend of mine caught it twice. The second time was not as bad for whatever that's worth.
It's also interesting to note that there is some evidence that even if you have had COVID getting the vax gives you some additional level of protection.

It's not hard - other countries do it. It provides better protection than the vaccine (but you have to deal with the virus first) and reduces severity and viral load for the 2nd exposure.

Vax on top of an infection will boost your ABs - and is likely the best protection possible. Although infection with no vax performs really, really well too.

See Israel and UK data.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

Off the top of my head, didn’t Gardisil have a bunch of side effects and get pulled from the market? And that was FDA approved unlike the covid shots.

Gardasil had a temporary recall due to a manufacturing snafu in one bacth - it is still on the market, and this was not related to side effects - the point stands that no vaccine in history has had unexpected negative effects that only appear years (or even months) after injection.

 

[Dore95]

It's not hard - other countries do it. It provides better protection than the vaccine (but you have to deal with the virus first) and reduces severity and viral load for the 2nd exposure.

Vax on top of an infection will boost your ABs - and is likely the best protection possible. Although infection with no vax performs really, really well too.

See Israel and UK data.

The other countries that do it - see Israel and the UK - have nationalized healthcare systems and closely track (through contact tracing and otherwise) infections, vaccinations, and so forth. Here (and particularly on this board) people get angry about any government involvement in these issues, so I doubt that these type of studies are feasible in the US.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

The other countries that do it - see Israel and the UK - have nationalized healthcare systems and closely track (through contact tracing and otherwise) infections, vaccinations, and so forth. Here (and particularly on this board) people get angry about any government involvement in these issues, so I doubt that these type of studies are feasible in the US.

They are feasible here...and they have actually been looked at in watered down versions. KY actually was the state they used.

The US just wasn't interested in giving "natural immunity" any legitimacy. Still aren't to be honest.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Gardasil had a temporary recall due to a manufacturing snafu in one bacth - it is still on the market, and this was not related to side effects - the point stands that no vaccine in history has had unexpected negative effects that only appear years (or even months) after injection.

Interesting. While the claim doesn’t seem plausible on its face, I guess it’s possible the FDA approval process was identifying all the side effects early on, so there wasn’t much to be discovered after approval that wasn’t previously known.

Obviously most viruses probably aren’t created in a lab and tested prior to deployment on the population.

 

[jameslee32]

 

[WildcatofNati]

They are feasible here...and they have actually been looked at in watered down versions. KY actually was the state they used.

The US just wasn't interested in giving "natural immunity" any legitimacy. Still aren't to be honest.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the KY study compare the chance of infection between those with a prior infection and no vaccine with those with a prior infection and a vaccine? If so, wouldn't it have been better to compare the chance of infection of those with a prior infection and no vaccine to those without a prior infection and with a vaccine, if the purpose is to gauge whether the prior infection provides more or less protection than a vaccination does?

If the study is the former scenario, all that really tells us is that a vaccination can provide additional protection for one who was previously infected, which was never really in dispute.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the KY study compare the chance of infection between those with a prior infection and no vaccine with those with a prior infection and a vaccine? If so, wouldn't it have been better to compare the chance of infection of those with a prior infection and no vaccine to those without a prior infection and with a vaccine, if the purpose is to gauge whether the prior infection provides more or less protection than a vaccination does?

If the study is the former scenario, all that really tells us is that a vaccination can provide additional protection for one who was previously infected, which was never really in dispute.

Yes - that was the KY deal. Infection + vax vs infection.

Really limited because they didnt, couldnt/wouldnt correct for testing protocols of vaxxed vs unvaxxed during the time period...and also didnt mention the severity of any cases.

And the raw rates were extremely low for both groups anyways.

There's no way they do a study and come to the conclusion that infection acquired immunity is better. I would think they'd see that as dangerous and also put them in the liar category for the last year or so.

 

[RunninRichie]

The virtue signaling in here is sad. Let me know if you want a tissue to clean up after you finish jerking yourselves off.

 

[jameslee32]

 

[CatsFanGG24]

They opened the door up to honor system booster shots...of course vaccination #s will increase...yet, the amount of community immunity and protection will not. Since they started talking about it - people are doing it.

 

[jameslee32]

Qooks.

 

[FtWorthCat]

Well, this isn't good. A former state rep from Muhlenberg Co. died of Covid after being fully vaxxed.

https://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article253628988.html

 

[jameslee32]

Well, this isn't good. A former state rep from Muhlenberg Co. died of Covid after being fully vaxxed.

https://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article253628988.html

Every other tweet was a local or state official dying this week it seems. Apparently the media had been salivating about Afghanistan and Covid to strike back it a big way. Whatever it takes to escalate the social unrest. smdh

 

[Beatle Bum]

Nursing homes are getting crushed from a staffing perspective. This vaccine mandate for nursing home that bill Medicare is going to impact care. Only considering some of the ramifications of government decisions is a disastrous approach.

 

[JumperJack]

If the vaccine doesn’t prevent it…how can more shots end it?

Wouldn’t every single person on earth have to be vaccinated to eliminate the source of mutations? And couldn’t it mutate in vaccinated people anyway?

And since we obviously know the vaccines don’t prevent it…what’s the end game here? One that doesn’t end in a complete destruction of personal liberty?

Anybody want to explain this?

 

[Tannerdad]

The only thing the vaccine does is lower the death rate and hospital occupancy. Which is not a bad thing.

This scourge from China will curse America for years to come.

 

[Blue_2_the_bone_rivals]

That would be a hard thing to isolate into a clinical study, but the reports I have heard say that having COVID does in fact provide some level of immunity, but I don't think anyone has been able to track if it reduces the severity if you catch it again. A friend of mine caught it twice. The second time was not as bad for whatever that's worth.
It's also interesting to note that there is some evidence that even if you have had COVID getting the vax gives you some additional level of protection.

I’ve caught it twice. Early 2020 and then again this summer with the variant. First time was worse but still not worse than the flu. This time it felt like allergies with 1 day of a slight ache in my hips. Smell loss has lasted longer this time only pertaining to strong odors though. I was able to work outside in my garden and yard. Same for my family. First time, they all felt cruddy a few days with a slight cough that lasted weeks. They all had almost zero symptoms this time except a headache for a day & loss of smell and taste for my wife

 

[BGCATFAN2012]

Starting to think it's not gonna end, seems we are stuck on a path of repeat and it will only stop when we are in ruins.

 

[Blue_2_the_bone_rivals]

Starting to think it's not gonna end, seems we are stuck on a path of repeat and it will only stop when we are in ruins.

If we got every single person in the US to vaxx and the vaxx actually stopped the current strain, we would bring another variant in through travel eventually and be right back where we started.

 

[Rockfly78]

I think the best we can do is probably suck it up and vax for starters. Some people still call it experimental. But FDA will soon announce full approval so that excuse will be out. There will be little incentives like no quarantine for those vaccinated (that’s already starting) and health insurance kickbacks (also already starting). No one wants to see the word “mandate”. I know I sure don’t. But we will eventually soften due to fatigue and pressure. This will go a long way in helping achieve herd immunity. Other than that we will just need to find a way to navigate around it. This is an excellent opportunity for each of us to take a long look at our personal choices and lifestyles. To put a positive spin on it, covid could result in a downward trend of diabetes, obesity, smoking, and heart disease. These are all manageable for those who have the stones to manage it. Except smoking. Smoking is basically reserved for the weak and dumb.

 

[American Dragon]

I think the best we can do is probably suck it up and vax for starters. Some people still call it experimental. But FDA will soon announce full approval so that excuse will be out. There will be little incentives like no quarantine for those vaccinated (that’s already starting) and health insurance kickbacks (also already starting). No one wants to see the word “mandate”. I know I sure don’t. But we will eventually soften due to fatigue and pressure. This will go a long way in helping achieve herd immunity. Other than that we will just need to find a way to navigate around it. This is an excellent opportunity for each of us to take a long look at our personal choices and lifestyles. To put a positive spin on it, covid could result in a downward trend of diabetes, obesity, smoking, and heart disease. These are all manageable for those who have the stones to manage it. Except smoking. Smoking is basically reserved for the weak and dumb.

I am reading we should be expecting to see a wave of vaccine requirements by schools and employers that had been holding out once FDA full authorization is granted. Apparently that full authorization is coming for Pfizer on Monday so buckle up.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Did Pfizer go through all the normal FDA procedures, or did they go through a special approval process?

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

Did Pfizer go through all the normal FDA procedures, or did they go through a special approval process?

The only thing special about it, as I recall, was the FDA assigning more people than usual to the review so that the same workload of reviewing their trials and data could be done in less time.

 

[WildcatofNati]

I am reading we should be expecting to see a wave of mask requirements by schools and employers that had been holding out once FDA full authorization is granted. Apparently that full authorization is coming for Pfizer on Monday so buckle up.

Boston, I think you are confusing mask requirements with vaccine requirements. What in the world would FDA approval have to do with a mask?

 

[KingOfBBN]

What does the vax have to do with religion?

Get the shot, wear a mask. Do you part.

Your religion is covid.

 

[American Dragon]

Boston, I think you are confusing mask requirements with vaccine requirements. What in the world would FDA approval have to do with a mask?

I meant vaccine, whoops

 

[American Dragon]

Your religion is covid.

Your religion is death if you’re avid anti-mask and anti-vaccine.

 

[pitinoshairplugs]

Gardasil had a temporary recall due to a manufacturing snafu in one bacth - it is still on the market, and this was not related to side effects - the point stands that no vaccine in history has had unexpected negative effects that only appear years (or even months) after injection.

nailed it.

2-4 weeks Max. 99.9999999% within 2-4 weeks