Daily Discussion: TA&M and Kentucky Offense

TBCat

Heisman
Mar 30, 2007
14,317
10,331
0
Wow you could do a name substitution and it would sound like they were writing about our program. Again I think the root cause of the offense lies in Stoops wanting to be equally good at everything rather than great a something. I believe a little less balance and a little more focus on an identity would do wonders for all positions on the offense including the much maligned offensive line.
 

BlueRaider22

All-American
Sep 24, 2003
15,562
9,058
0
^Right now, I doubt Stoops cares what his offense consists of as long as it is effective. We started out the yr throwing the ball 50-60% of the time......which is typical of the modern "Air Raid" adaptations. But it was ugly.......poor passes, dropped balls, spotty o-line. Then we ran the ball more towards the end of the yr since it was more or less the only thing that was working.
 

docholiday51

Heisman
Oct 19, 2001
22,011
26,718
0
Honestly it was never clear what we really wanted to do. We were so bad at throwing,catching or getting separation that the passing game just fell apart. The running game was so one dimensional (no sweeps, misdirection or even counter plays we got what we got because of defensive breakdowns not because of anything we did

Towles could run the ball a little(but Dawson/Stoops wouldn't let him) and Barker wasn't fast enough to run it

Lastly the offensive line wasn't good but they probably got more blame than they deserved
 

BlueRaider22

All-American
Sep 24, 2003
15,562
9,058
0
It's fairly clear what Stoops wants. He hired 2 different Air Raid OCs. He has said that he wants to run a more flexible Air Raid offense.....similar to what Oklahoma State runs. Brown ran it at TTU. Holgorson ran it at Oklahoma State....which is why Stoops hired Dawson (who studied under Dana)

Understand that the Air Raid to many conjures up thoughts of throwing it 70% of the time. The modern Air Raid is more balanced.....but still incoporates the Air Raid concepts. And thus still is technically the Air Raid offense. Brown threw the ball about 58-60% of the time at TTU. Oklahoma State has done about 50-60% of the time depending on what the personnel allows.

The problem is that we can't execute the desired offense right now. We can't pass protect, can't catch, can't run precise routes, can't read defenses, can't throw, etc. What we could do was utilize our good RBs. Boom was one of the elite in the nation for yes/attempt this yr. Jojo was up in the top 50-ish this yr as well. It's no wonder why we ran the ball so much this yr. The staff was just trying to do whatever would work to win as much as they could.

The notion that Stoops wants a power rushing offense is an excuse offered up by those who either lack knowledge about what is happening or haven't analyzed what's really going on.


Now, the QB running thing. That's Dawson. I've seen that with my own eyes in practice. I don't know if Stoops cares or not but I know that Dawson has gotten into Towles several times for scrambling.
 

WildCard

All-American
May 29, 2001
65,040
7,390
0
t's fairly clear what Stoops wants. He hired 2 different Air Raid OCs. He has said that he wants to run a more flexible Air Raid offense.....similar to what Oklahoma State runs. Brown ran it at TTU. Holgorson ran it at Oklahoma State....which is why Stoops hired Dawson (who studied under Dana)

Understand that the Air Raid to many conjures up thoughts of throwing it 70% of the time. The modern Air Raid is more balanced.....but still incoporates the Air Raid concepts. And thus still is technically the Air Raid offense. Brown threw the ball about 58-60% of the time at TTU. Oklahoma State has done about 50-60% of the time depending on what the personnel allows.

The problem is that we can't execute the desired offense right now. We can't pass protect, can't catch, can't run precise routes, can't read defenses, can't throw, etc. What we could do was utilize our good RBs. Boom was one of the elite in the nation for yes/attempt this yr. Jojo was up in the top 50-ish this yr as well. It's no wonder why we ran the ball so much this yr. The staff was just trying to do whatever would work to win as much as they could.

The notion that Stoops wants a power rushing offense is an excuse offered up by those who either lack knowledge about what is happening or haven't analyzed what's really going on.

Now, the QB running thing. That's Dawson. I've seen that with my own eyes in practice. I don't know if Stoops cares or not but I know that Dawson has gotten into Towles several times for scrambling.
BR, I respectfully disagree regarding your "definitions" of an Air Raid offense.

The fundamental and most accepted definition of the Air Raid offense is a decidedly unbalanced, pass heavy offense. It is not about the Mumme/Leach patterns (many of which come from LaVell Edwards passing game concepts at BYU). It is about an offensive mindset to throw the ball anytime, anywhere on the field and to do so very frequently. To say a team which incorporates some classic Air Raid patterns (mesh, Y-Sail, etc.) in their passing game is an Air Raid offense is not unlike saying a shotgun set team is really a Single Wing offense because they both use the direct snap.

This past season only 1 team threw the ball more than 58% of the time. Not surprising that was Mike Leach's WSU team which threw it on 74% of their plays. That is a pretty big drop off from #1 WSU and #2 IL (58%). I think what you are seeing is the coaches that came from the Mumme/Leach Air Raid tree (actually a pretty small tree) are now convinced that a more balanced offense is a better offensive system overall.

To be perfectly honest I have no idea of "what" CMS wants in an offense. This is his first gig as an HC and, other than stopping one, he has probably never thought about offense before in his career. That said, "defensive guys" often seem to gyrate to a balanced, ball control style of play as that usually best compliments their defense. Not only that, but when listening to DCs talk about opponents, unless playing a WSU or GA Tech type team, they usually cite "balance" as the thing that makes a offense difficult to defend. Brother Bob was one of the few defensive guys that bucked this ball control trend and has gone with a wide open offensive style his entire time at OU.

I personally believe that style-wise Dawson was a good replacement for Brown; both seem to have similar philosophies but Dawson did not run the QB as did Brown. But, overall, I'm still not sure "what" the Cats want to do offensively. One thing is for sure, with Barker and Phillips as the main contenders at QB, they will not feature a QB run offense. All of course, JMO.

Peace
 

BlueRaider22

All-American
Sep 24, 2003
15,562
9,058
0
It's not "my definition." When you Google Kevin Sumlin's, Dana Holgorson's, Neal Brown's, Lincoln Riley's, etc, offense, it is labeled "Air Raid." Article after article after article. All claim to run the Air Raid offense. These words are spoken from their own very mouths when describing their own offenses. I completely agree that the Air Raid offense doesn't really exist anymore.....at least not in the form that we may remember it......but to those coaches who come from the Air Raid tree, they all still claim to run it.

Enough semantics. The fact remains. Stoops hired an up-tempo, explosive OC in Neal Brown. He went out again and hired someone in the same mold in Dawson. It's ultra-clear that he's not planning on running the veer. I just think they can't execute what they want.
 
Feb 21, 2006
8,403
9,162
0
I think Dawson and even NB to a lesser extent tried to shape Pat to fit their offense instead of tweaking the offense to fit Pat and his abilities...

He's a big athlete that can make some plays and move the chains with his mobility, and pretty good down field thrower...he's not a dink n dunk pocket surgeon...

I'm not sure why the QB run game wasn't more aggressively used this season...Pat had moderate success with it last season....an extra 400-500 yds and 10-12 TDs on the ground from the QB makes all the difference and could be worth 2-3 more wins a year...

also, there were a couple of the WRs who didn't fully blossom this year...we have a couple big guys with size and length advantages who were never fully taken advantage of with intermediate and deep routes or in redzone situations...still baffled as to why the TE wasn't used more in the passing game especially on 3rd downs and redzone...

and overall the play calling is too conservative...

would really like to see the staff let loose next season...throw in some wildcat packages, be more aggressive in the intermediate and deep passing game, unleash the TE(s)...and if there is a transfer QB available that is mobile snatch him up and see what he can do...
 

Soupbean

All-American
Jan 19, 2007
5,945
8,109
0
Guys there are many variations of an air raid offense but the key to the one Mumme brought here and swept the nation for a while was not just about how much you threw it but how you threw it. Sure we threw it 70% of the time but half of those throws were within 5 yards of the line. Mumme used the pass as part of his running game. The key was spread the defense and make them run side to side then hit you with draws and screens once he got the middle softened up.

It made the LBers run and chase and took away the advantage the bigger teams had up front because the ball got out so quick the pass rush was negated. Throw in some tempo and there you go.

That's why I think it's still the best approach for us because it's the only way to compensate for our never ending problem of going against bigger and faster up front. And that works to help the run game too because your not relying on straight ahead strength plays but are giving you RB space to run on draws and delays where they can use the DL penetration to find gaps and catch balls out of the backfield.
 

Katwatcher

Sophomore
Feb 17, 2003
563
153
0
BR, I respectfully disagree regarding your "definitions" of an Air Raid offense.

The fundamental and most accepted definition of the Air Raid offense is a decidedly unbalanced, pass heavy offense. It is not about the Mumme/Leach patterns (many of which come from LaVell Edwards passing game concepts at BYU). It is about an offensive mindset to throw the ball anytime, anywhere on the field and to do so very frequently. To say a team which incorporates some classic Air Raid patterns (mesh, Y-Sail, etc.) in their passing game is an Air Raid offense is not unlike saying a shotgun set team is really a Single Wing offense because they both use the direct snap.

This past season only 1 team threw the ball more than 58% of the time. Not surprising that was Mike Leach's WSU team which threw it on 74% of their plays. That is a pretty big drop off from #1 WSU and #2 IL (58%). I think what you are seeing is the coaches that came from the Mumme/Leach Air Raid tree (actually a pretty small tree) are now convinced that a more balanced offense is a better offensive system overall.

To be perfectly honest I have no idea of "what" CMS wants in an offense. This is his first gig as an HC and, other than stopping one, he has probably never thought about offense before in his career. That said, "defensive guys" often seem to gyrate to a balanced, ball control style of play as that usually best compliments their defense. Not only that, but when listening to DCs talk about opponents, unless playing a WSU or GA Tech type team, they usually cite "balance" as the thing that makes a offense difficult to defend. Brother Bob was one of the few defensive guys that bucked this ball control trend and has gone with a wide open offensive style his entire time at OU.

I personally believe that style-wise Dawson was a good replacement for Brown; both seem to have similar philosophies but Dawson did not run the QB as did Brown. But, overall, I'm still not sure "what" the Cats want to do offensively. One thing is for sure, with Barker and Phillips as the main contenders at QB, they will not feature a QB run offense. All of course, JMO.

Peace
I liked your post, It got my attention when you mentioned Stoops had probably never thought much about the offensive side of the ball except finding a way to stop it. You may be right about that. but I tend to disagree with that theory.

Being a defensive minded person most of his coaching career figuring out ways to stop certain offensives he had to know what made the formations or plays work.

So I'm led to believe he thought about it and probably knows more than we think. It's better for a HC not to be involved too much in either the OC's or DC's job. There are many more facets of the game that he needs to take care of. That is the reason I believe he is knowledgeable about both sides of the line.

I think the fans watching him on the sideline perhaps thought he and Dawson wasn't seeing the same things on the field, but I believe they were just communicating with each other.about what to try.. in other words Coach Speak.:grimace:
 

WildCard

All-American
May 29, 2001
65,040
7,390
0
I liked your post, It got my attention when you mentioned Stoops had probably never thought much about the offensive side of the ball except finding a way to stop it. You may be right about that. but I tend to disagree with that theory.

Being a defensive minded person most of his coaching career figuring out ways to stop certain offensives he had to know what made the formations or plays work.

So I'm led to believe he thought about it and probably knows more than we think...
Perhaps I should have said he thinks about offense with a defensive perspective. Wait, I think I did say that. [winking]

FWIW, Charlie Strong was the same way at UofL. Same for Muschamp at FL. Chizik's offense at AU left when Newton left. IIRC (not looking it up) Ole Miss and MSU never got much done offensively with Orgeron and Croom respectively. I'm sure there are other examples but those are ones that immediately come to mind.

I'm not saying CMS and the others I mentioned did not "know" offensive football only that they perhaps "think offense" with a defensive mindset. I singled out Bob Stoops because he is a real exception.

Peace