Dave Schultz and OSU

[chuckkinbote]

I read Mark Schultz's Foxcatcher yesterday, and the author comes across as a pathologically self-absorbed cro-mag. It reminded me that my arche-poke dad really didn't like the Schultz brothers.



Does anyone know the story of why Dave left OSU (book rehearses some stuff about the weight cut)? Do other OSU fans harbor animosity toward the Schultzes?

 

[oberebo]

I am speaking only as one fan who followed OSU wrestling at the time of the Schultz brothers. I harbor no animosity towards Dave Schultz and did not even when he left to go to OU. I am sure that there were many factors which led Dave to leave and go to Norman and I was not then nor am I now privy to the reasons. The one factor however that I heard over and over during that time however may have been the biggest. Dave wanted to wrestle freestyle after college and of course did with great success. At the time the OU assistant was Jimmie Humphreys who was a freestyle guru and I believe this could have been the major reason he left.

I was at the NCAA tournament in Princeton in '81 when Ricky Stewart pinned Dave in the finals. It was a great experience but I do not recall anyone being vindictive about it from the OSU perspective. What I am going to say next is only my opinion and I am not tying to bring down a great wrestler after his death. Dave was eccentric and motivated to be the best at his chosen sport of free style wrestling. He was very good and wrestling fans from every country in the world respected him for his wrestling ability and he was more of a hero in Russia and some other countries that are bigger supporters of freestyle wrestling than the United States. His tragic death did not in my opinion make him a hero nor do I think that he would or should have been a role model for our youth. He was unique, strange and I believe troubled and his drive to achieve his goals probably led to the tragic ending. He was willing to put up with a lot from John Dupont to achieve what he wanted. He should be respected for his achievements which were great but I would not choose his path for any of my sons.

Mark Schultz won the NCAA's in Princeton that year and most people at the time thought he was much more athletically gifted than Dave but less so intellectually. I really know very little about Mark.

 

[chuckkinbote]

Thanks oberebo. I have another Schultz question. My dad took me to a Bedlam during their stay at OU. The match was in Norman, and he said that the introductions involved one (both?) of the brothers descending from the rafters with gold medals around his/their neck(s). Punchline was that the underdog (and my dad's fave) Sheets won that night. I was 5 or 6 so don't remember. Could someone someone piece together details? (My dad may have combined several Bedlams and Big8 tournaments to convey a basic point: Tahlequah boy > all-everythings from California.)

 

[Harleycowboy]

I have to admit that I loved it when Mark took out Ed Banach to stop him from having 4 titles. It was a great match. Mark Schultz seemed to have great strength and balance. I also enjoyed it when Monday passed Dave Schultz in freestyle performance but have nothing against Dave Schultz. However I do have something against Iowa wrestlers. Also if we or someone doesn't stop Pen. St. I will pull strongly against their wrestlers also. I don't think they will win this year but next year they may be back to dominating. There is only one wrestling program I want to be dominating and that is the Cowboys. We were dominating, everything going our way and for whatever reasons we lost this domination. It has been a lot of years since we have been at 34 and counting. I hope that changes but we are not in it this year unless something's drastic happen.

 

[oberebo]

Holy Coinkidink, Micco just posted on facebook a picture of Mark Schultz in his OU warmup that I took at Princeton after he beat Banach. Micco brazenly stole this photo from my attic.I also took a picture of Ricky Stewart at that tournament and last year I sent it to him and got a nice reply and thanks.

 

[lookleftgoright]

If I remember correctly, Dave Schultz left OSU and went to UCLA or some California school. However, before he could even wrestle they dropped the program so he went out to OU. OU had Metzger, Frizzell and a couple other studs and the Schultz duo gave them a solid foursome. Not enough to win an NCAA team title however.

 

[oberebo]

Lookleft, I did not remember that he left OSU for UCLA so I did a little research and I believe you have he and his brother confused in this instance. You are a wrestling guru and I have great respect for what you do for wrestling in particular youth wrestling so I quake when I contradict you.

It was Mark Schultz who attended UCLA his freshman year and was 18-8 as a freshman at UCLA. He left there when UCLA dropped the program and was a 3 X National champion at OU and his most noted match was his 16-8 defeat of Banach at 177 at Princeton. He was named the outstanding wrestler of the tournament for this win as Banach was going for his fourth straight.

Information gleaned about Dave in this research shows why he may be the most respected Free style wrestler of all time. His accomplishments included winning Gold at the 1984 Olympics in LA. In the world championships he won Gold in 1983 and was in the finals 4 other years where he took silver and he also finished with bronze medals two years for a total of six World championship medals. He also won Gold medals on five occasions in the World cup championships. BTW Mark also won a Gold medal in the 1984 Olympics.

 

[MiccoMacey]

Originally posted by oberebo:

Holy Coinkidink, Micco just posted on facebook a picture of Mark Schultz in his OU warmup that I took at Princeton after he beat Banach. Micco brazenly stole this photo from my attic.I also took a picture of Ricky Stewart at that tournament and last year I sent it to him and got a nice reply and thanks.

Nope.

Mark Schultz beat Mike DeAnna from Iowa in 1981. He beat Banach in Ames in 1982. I was there. Beat him 16-8, in one of my all-time favorite matches I've attended still to this day. #1...Karl Lyons beating the Iowa State guy (can't remember his name...maybe Fuzzy Somebody???) in Stillwater early 1980's.

And if you giving the picture to me and me hanging onto it for 30+ years means I "stole it from your attic", then I concur.

 

[MiccoMacey]

And I can't get behind your blaming Schultz for his own death. He is not responsible for anything John DuPont did. Sure, he stayed in his home, and trained with his freestyle team. But nothing about his training nor his "unique-ness" led to John DuPont pulling out a gun and shooting him. If he had confronted DuPont and challenged him to a fight right then you'd have an argument. Otherwise, we'll agree to disagree.

And yes, Dave transferred to UCLA and they folded. So he came to OU because of Jim Humphrey.

 

[OSUMatFan]

I saw the movie on Thursday as it premiered here in Dallas. John DuPont was a schizophrenic and there was nothing Dave could have done, but stayed away from him. From everything I have read Dave Schultz was a well adjusted outgoing guy that was pretty much trying to find a stable environment for his family and thought that Foxcatcher Farms was the place for that. It did appear from the movie that Mark had a few issues, but the story was written by Mark he might have been hard on himself.

Tyrone Lewis played the role of the wrestler that Mark beat in the finals of the 1987 world championships and Jake Herbert played the role of Mike Sheets in the Olympic qualifying match.

I recall Dave Schultz left OSU to go to UCLA and I guess they terminated the program before the season started and both Schultz transferred to OU.

The movie was very dark, but very well acted. Mark Ruffino really captured Dave very well. Ruffino had Dave's movements down completely. I did not know too much about Mark, but in the movie he seemed troubled.

 

[Sebastian]

So Mark wrote Foxcatcher. The description fits his ramblings he used to post on intermat forum. Lots of meathead talk, kinda half crazy, everybody has screwed him over, is going to kick a lot of people's ***, anybody need a wrestling coach, etc. I always heard Dabe was eccentric, but never heard a bad word, in fact the opposite. Also....1984 Olympic gold is not a real gold in my mind since no Eastern Bloc.

 

[MiccoMacey]

So, was the 1980 Olympics not a real Olympics because the USA bloc wasn't there?

 

[Old Number Nine]

Here's what I remember and I'm sure it is correct after checking the NNCA brackets on WrestlingStats and what I remember Mark saying on an old Wrestling message board.

Anyway, Dave wrestled for us in 77-78 and was part of the amazing Big 12 championship of that season. He transferred to UCLA to wrestle with Mark and appears to have taken a Red-shirt. Mark was one loss an out at 158 lbs at the tournament that year.

UCLA dropped wrestling and they transferred to OU because of Humprey's emphasis on free style. Neither appeared in the 79-80 NCAA so they both appear to have set out and Dave lost a year.

I don't know why they didn't wrestle that year as I thought if your school drops its program, you didn't have to set out.

 

[Old Number Nine]

The best thing I personally remember about Dave as an OSU wrestling fan was this: After winning the 1984 Olympic gold medal he was beaten out by Kenny Monday for the 1988 team. I can still picture Dave sparing with Kenny before the games and during the Olympic coverage. I believe he was with Kenny as he competed and won the gold. That was a total class act.

 

[AZ poke]

And after Kenny won gold, it was Dave who hoisted Kenny up on his shoulders and paraded him around the mat in celebration. There is a photo of it in the HOF, one of my favorites.

 

[oberebo]

Originally posted by MiccoMacey:
And I can't get behind your blaming Schultz for his own death. He is not responsible for anything John DuPont did. Sure, he stayed in his home, and trained with his freestyle team. But nothing about his training nor his "unique-ness" led to John DuPont pulling out a gun and shooting him. If he had confronted DuPont and challenged him to a fight right then you'd have an argument. Otherwise, we'll agree to disagree.

And yes, Dave transferred to UCLA and they folded. So he came to OU because of Jim Humphrey.

In no way do I blame Dave Schultz for his tragic death. John DuPont was crazy. He did not suddenly become "crazy" the day he shot and killed Dave. All I was trying to say was that others recognized that DuPont was unhinged and left. I am sure Dave recognized this also but for whatever reason chose to stay.

As far as your theft of the Mark Schultz picture, I was only repeating what you said on facebook about finding the picture in the attic. I know I gave it to you many years ago.

Apologies to Lookleft, as you are right that Dave left to go to UCLA and THEN they dropped the program. He did go to OU because of Jim Humphrey.

Mark Schultz was the outstanding wrestler in 1982 at Ames where I gave my ticket to Micco to sell as he Shawnee wrestling team went and I could not go. He won in 1981 at Princeton at 167 and Banach was at 177. The following year Dave won at 167 and Mark won at 177.

On a personal note, the NCAA tournaments become compressed in my mind. I attended my first tournament in Stillwater in 1962 and I have attended 30 NCAA tournaments (I double-checked) since 1962. From 1963 to 1976 I did not attend the NCAA's but attended in 1977 when it was at OU in Norman. I skipped three years and then went to the tournament in Princeton in 1981. Due to a job change I did not go in1982 but Micco did. Since 1982 I have attended all of the tournaments with the exceptions of Princeton in 1984 , College Park in 1987 and 1990and Penn State in 1999. I have not missed a tournament since 1999. KC Scott and I started going to the tournaments together in 1981 and have attended 28 tournaments together since that time.

My good friend J. Carl can rattle off all kinds of statistics if you give him the year of the tournament but I have great difficulty recalling last years tournament. I apologize for my errors in reporting.

This post was edited on 12/1 11:46 AM by oberebo

 

[Sebastian]

Yes, the 1980 summer Olympics don't count either. Especially in track sprinting events. Roughly equivalent. Sorry OU's gold medal winners didn't do it in a real Olympics.

 

[MiccoMacey]

Sebastian,

I was just curious about your stance on the Olympics. Nothing should be construed, stated or otherwise, about any OU or OSU victories from either Olympics.

 

[lookleftgoright]

Oberebo- Thanks for the apology, but no need for it. I will say that if you were kidding about the comment "all I've done for youth sports and you quake to contradict me", it was hilarious.

If you were being sarcastic, then I have probably offended you in some way and I am sorry.

If you were serious, then you have me mistaken for someone else.

I took it as joking around and had a nice chuckle over it. It is just hard to tell someone's tone on message board sometime.

Either way, I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[OSUMatFan]

The movie was pretty clear as to why Dave stayed at Foxcatcher Farms and Mark left. Dave had a wife and two kids and wanted stability for his family (that he and Mark did not have as children). That was a decision that Dave made and unfortunately it was incorrect. You never really know how messed up somebody is until they do something you did not think they were capable of doing.

 

[Inky29]

Saw the movie so it made me start doing some searching around on the internet. Apparently those close to DuPont knew he was nuts but what can you do to a guy that writes all the checks? I think some folks tried to get him to speak with someone but he would no show.

I'm not sure anyone really ever expects someone to just drive up and shoot them without provication however based on an interview with Kurt Angle and a few others there were multiple times when DuPont threatened wrestlers with a firearm. According to Kurt, Dave was wanting to leave but didn't want to leave until after the olympics since he'd played such a large roll in getting folks to come there to farm.

There are some really interesting interviews out there with DuPont and others who were close to him. Definitely one messed up dude.

 

[J. Carl]

oberebo: good thing you didn't go to Princeton in 1984. The tournament was in New Jersey, but not at Princeton. At the Meadowlands in Secaucus. It would have been kind of like going to Cedar Rapids to watch your son wrestle, but upon arrival learning that the tournament actually was in Cedar Falls (or was it the other way around?). Anyway, I heard that happened to someone once upon a time.
This post was edited on 12/3 6:16 PM by J. Carl

 

[oberebo]

In any event I did not go. Princeton was host school in 1984 but apparently they had it in the Meadowlands although Wikipedia shows it was at Jadwin Gym. Obviously, they are incorrect.

 

[Cowguy]

I think it was like 85 at outlaws. They had an event with a wrestling bear. Mark, Dave and Bruce Baumgartner all gave it a go. Mark almost killed the bear. You had to have the bear on it's back and pin its paws to the ground. If you did, you won some money ... Can't recall how much. What they didn't say is that it was not anatomically possible to do that, without dislocating the bear's shoulders. Mark almost did just that.

Mark and Dave were just larger than life guys.

My favorite Dave memory was, after Kenny beat him to take the Olympic spot, Dave went full throttle to prepare him. When Kenny win, Dave put him on his shoulders and ran around the mat. It was one of the coolest examples of sportsmanship I've ever seen ... And one of the reasons wrestlers are just some of the best people in all sports.
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[lookleftgoright]

I also remember a story about the time Kenny lost in the finals of the Olympics, I think,and Dave stayed with him all night consoling him and helping him deal with the loss. Very classy.

 

[mike tognetti]

When I was in the Navy, I wrestled a brown bear (450 pd) at a fair. There we're 10 people wrestling every day and I was one of them. Long story short, I was the smallest guy and the only one that didn't get pinned. The bear would swing his paws around and almost knock you out with every blow. Grabbing the bears skin didn't help because it was to loose, it had on a muzzle and growled the whole time. I have a picture of it stored with my crackerjack uniform. I sure got drunk that night and never paid for a drink. Thanks Cowguy for bringing back great memories 36 years ago.

This post was edited on 12/4 3:50 PM by mike tognetti

This post was edited on 12/4 3:51 PM by mike tognetti

 

[oberebo]

I think you got drunk and imagined the whole thing. Post that picture on the board and we can decide which is the beauty and which is the beast- my money is on the bear being better looking.