David Ortiz elected to HOF. (Just Ortiz.)

WestSideLion

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This is some kind of hooey. The BBWA has and always will use vendettas against guys they decide they don't like. Seeing Scott Rolen get 63% and Bonds and Clemens only just above that says it all. Baseball has never been about ideals. The writers just get to selectively play that card when they want.
 

Bison13

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This is some kind of hooey. The BBWA has and always will use vendettas against guys they decide they don't like. Seeing Scott Rolen get 63% and Bonds and Clemens only just above that says it all. Baseball has never been about ideals. The writers just get to selectively play that card when they want.
So a guy who did test positive for ped's gets in, but only the one who reporters liked, hmmm. Some guys should be losing their votes
 

Erial_Lion

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This is some kind of hooey. The BBWA has and always will use vendettas against guys they decide they don't like. Seeing Scott Rolen get 63% and Bonds and Clemens only just above that says it all. Baseball has never been about ideals. The writers just get to selectively play that card when they want.
The criteria are officially: "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

When it comes to guys like Bonds and Clemens, I'd have trouble voting for them if I stuck to that criteria, and I've got no vendetta against them.
 
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Bvillebaron

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This is some kind of hooey. The BBWA has and always will use vendettas against guys they decide they don't like. Seeing Scott Rolen get 63% and Bonds and Clemens only just above that says it all. Baseball has never been about ideals. The writers just get to selectively play that card when they want.
I am ecstatic that Bonds and Clemens didn’t make it. Grew up idolizing Aaron and it still rankles that Pumpkinhead hit a mere 7 more homers than Aaron. Being denied the Hall is exactly what they deserved.
 

Erial_Lion

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So a guy who did test positive for ped's gets in, but only the one who reporters liked, hmmm. Some guys should be losing their votes
The guys that didn't get in were named in the Mitchell report, charged with perjury, were suspended for seasons, etc. Ortiz had his name leaked in anonymous testing that the commish said after the fact wasn't completely accurate and that some of the players that were flagged may well have been taking legal supplements that weren't handled correctly. For me, Ortiz is a gray area, where Clemens/Bonds/ARod are pretty black and white (and it's got nothing to do with their personalities).
 

Bison13

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The guys that didn't get in were named in the Mitchell report, charged with perjury, were suspended for seasons, etc. Ortiz had his name leaked in anonymous testing that the commish said after the fact wasn't completely accurate and that some of the players that were flagged may well have been taking legal supplements that weren't handled correctly. For me, Ortiz is a gray area, where Clemens/Bonds/ARod are pretty black and white (and it's got nothing to do with their personalities).
I've got some former baseball players that I coached who are playing in major league baseball right now and a few others in the minors. Asking them, they tell me papi is a definite user. They also tell me that a lot of these guys voting are actually jerks to the players and hold it against them
 
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WestSideLion

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The criteria are officially: "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

When it comes to guys like Bonds and Clemens, I'd have trouble voting for them if I stuck to that criteria, and I've got no vendetta against them.
You're avoiding the most obvious issue, IMO. The baseball hall of fame relies solely on the BBWA voters for election. There is no fan component and no outright vote from existing hall members.

Further compounding things is the fact that BBWA voters can choose to make their ballots public or private. Historic data indicates that private ballots skew greatly from public ones. This is a major issue, IMO, and directly implies collusion and axe grinding within the BBWA.

This is anything but completely merit based. It's a club and the voters wield their personal views and vendettas in deciding who they admit. That is moreso than any other sport hall of fame, IMO.

Hell, Terrell Owens got into Canton based on his PLAY. The same with Allen Iverson. Neither were likable, per se.
 
Oct 12, 2021
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This is some kind of hooey. The BBWA has and always will use vendettas against guys they decide they don't like. Seeing Scott Rolen get 63% and Bonds and Clemens only just above that says it all. Baseball has never been about ideals. The writers just get to selectively play that card when they want.
Scott Rolen is one of the top 15 or so 3B to ever play so yeah, he should be in.

Can’t stand Bonds but he would have been close to first ballot even if he never used steroids.
 

91Joe95

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Ridiculous. You'd be hard pressed to pick any hitter over Bonds to start a team, and Ortiz isn't one of them. Similar situation with Clemens on the pitching side.
 

WestSideLion

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Scott Rolen is one of the top 15 or so 3B to ever play so yeah, he should be in.

Can’t stand Bonds but he would have been close to first ballot even if he never used steroids.
Based on career WAR, sure. But if you did an analysis of the top 10-15 players in MLB during Rolen's career, then no way he'd make the list. His WAR is a factor of positional value at 3B. He was a great defender, for sure. But my point is that he's not in the same echelon as Bonds and Clemens. Or A-Rod.
 
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Based on career WAR, sure. But if you did an analysis of the top 10-15 players in MLB during Rolen's career, then no way he'd make the list. His WAR is a factor of positional value at 3B. He was a great defender, for sure. But my point is that he's not in the same echelon as Bonds and Clemens. Or A-Rod.
Never said he was. Anyone top 15, (Rolen is probably top 10) at their position gets in all day long.

can’t effectively compare across positions. Otherwise you are comparing Arky Vaughan(top 5 SS all time) to Albert Pujols.
 
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91Joe95

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If PED’s were as prevalent as the Baseball Writer’s Association of America claim it was, a lot of those same writers were either in on the scam or incompetent.

Baseball was happy to look the other way in order to drum up fan interest after the long work stoppage. Now they want to feign outrage. Guys like McGuire and Canseco were busy making a mockery of records long before a bunch of other players finally had to join in. What a joke.
 
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McCringleberry

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I am ecstatic that Bonds and Clemens didn’t make it. Grew up idolizing Aaron and it still rankles that Pumpkinhead hit a mere 7 more homers than Aaron. Being denied the Hall is exactly what they deserved.
Agree. The problem is it’s what Big Papi deserved too. His gregarious personality doesn’t change the fact that he cheated just like they did.
 

kgilbert78

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The criteria are officially: "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

When it comes to guys like Bonds and Clemens, I'd have trouble voting for them if I stuck to that criteria, and I've got no vendetta against them.
But Gaylord Perry is in.... And what he did, unlike PED's at the time, was against the rules of baseball. Or, if you ever read Ball Four....

And note, I am not defending those who used. But it's a bit hypocritical.
 

PSUAVLNC

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I am ecstatic that Bonds and Clemens didn’t make it. Grew up idolizing Aaron and it still rankles that Pumpkinhead hit a mere 7 more homers than Aaron. Being denied the Hall is exactly what they deserved.
Completely correct. Ortiz shouldn’t have got in either. That’s just wrong. Hank Aaron is still my HR king. Bonds, Sosa, McGuire should all be banned for life. All PED users should be banned
 
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manatree

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Completely correct. Ortiz shouldn’t have got in either. That’s just wrong. Hank Aaron is still my HR king. Bonds, Sosa, McGuire should all be banned for life. All PED users should be banned

Are you going to go back and remove and ban the long list of amphetamine users as well?
 

[email protected]

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But Gaylord Perry is in.... And what he did, unlike PED's at the time, was against the rules of baseball. Or, if you ever read Ball Four....

And note, I am not defending those who used. But it's a bit hypocritical.
The great point is that PED’s were not in fact against the rules of baseball at the time Bonds was the greatest hitter I ever saw for a stretch
 
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lions1995

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You're avoiding the most obvious issue, IMO. The baseball hall of fame relies solely on the BBWA voters for election. There is no fan component and no outright vote from existing hall members.

Further compounding things is the fact that BBWA voters can choose to make their ballots public or private. Historic data indicates that private ballots skew greatly from public ones. This is a major issue, IMO, and directly implies collusion and axe grinding within the BBWA.

This is anything but completely merit based. It's a club and the voters wield their personal views and vendettas in deciding who they admit. That is moreso than any other sport hall of fame, IMO.

Hell, Terrell Owens got into Canton based on his PLAY. The same with Allen Iverson. Neither were likable, per se.
Not sure the Halls are any better.

Football: Enshrinees are selected by a 48-person committee, largely made up of media members, officially known as the Selection Committee. Each city that has a current NFL team sends one representative from the local media to the committee; a city with more than one franchise sends one representative for each franchise. There are also 15 at-large delegates, including one representative from the Pro Football Writers Association. Except for the PFWA representative, who is appointed to a two-year term, all other appointments are open-ended, and terminated only by death, incapacitation, retirement, or resignation

Basketball: Individuals who receive at least seven votes from the North American Screening Committee or five votes from one of the other screening committees in a given year are eligible to advance to an Honors Committee, composed of 12 members plus rotating groups of 12 specialists (one group for female candidates, one group for international candidates, and one group for American and veterans candidates) who vote on each candidate. Each screening committee has a limited number of candidates it may submit to the Honors Committee—10 from the North American Committee, and two from each of the other committees. Any individual receiving at least 18 affirmative votes (75% of all votes cast) from the Honors Committee is approved for induction into the Hall of Fame. As long as the number of candidates receiving sufficient votes from a screening committee is not greater than the number of finalists that the committee is permitted to submit, advancement to the Honors Committee is generally pro forma, although the Hall's Board of Trustees may remove from consideration any candidate who "has damaged the integrity of the game of basketball"

They are all subjective and depends on whether they like you or not or if they can put their feeling for you aside and vote on your impact on the court.
 
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lions1995

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The great point is that PED’s were not in fact against the rules of baseball at the time Bonds was the greatest hitter I ever saw for a stretch
Actually MLB made steroids illegal in 1991, they didn't start testing until 2003 (so for 12 years MLB said you can't use these, but we have no way to really know if you are, just speculation).

Unless you have a valid prescription, steroids are illegal and considered Schedule III Controlled Substance and 1st offense carries up to 1 year in jail and up to $1,000 fine.
 

Ceasar

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You're avoiding the most obvious issue, IMO. The baseball hall of fame relies solely on the BBWA voters for election. There is no fan component and no outright vote from existing hall members.

Further compounding things is the fact that BBWA voters can choose to make their ballots public or private. Historic data indicates that private ballots skew greatly from public ones. This is a major issue, IMO, and directly implies collusion and axe grinding within the BBWA.

This is anything but completely merit based. It's a club and the voters wield their personal views and vendettas in deciding who they admit. That is moreso than any other sport hall of fame, IMO.

Hell, Terrell Owens got into Canton based on his PLAY. The same with Allen Iverson. Neither were likable, per se.
I tend to agree with this and I am surprised that in this debate nobody has brought up Schilling. I am not saying Curt Schilling is a Hall of Famer. IMO he is very borderline and if not for his post-season dominance he would not have been a viable candidate. But I don't think anyone would disagree that he did not get in yesterday because of a combination of his political/social views and his statement last year when he told voters not to vote for him. I saw a few commentators yesterday who could not contain their glee in remarking the voters listened to him. I don't think anyone's political views should influence even one vote and this goes to the point about these voters sometimes having an ax to grind.
 

Connorpozlee

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The great point is that PED’s were not in fact against the rules of baseball at the time Bonds was the greatest hitter I ever saw for a stretch
I’ve never really understood this line of thought. It wasn’t against the rules of baseball at the time, but it was illegal right? Illegal things don’t need rules written about them, do they?
 

91Joe95

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I’ve never really understood this line of thought. It wasn’t against the rules of baseball at the time, but it was illegal right? Illegal things don’t need rules written about them, do they?

Do sports leagues report steroid use to the police? There's always a doctor out there to write a prescription if it comes to that.