Dawson-Stoops

[T75]

I'm quite late in bringing up this question. If it's been discussed here already, I apologize.

I recently read that UK's fired OC had landed a similar job at a lesser school. He seemed to be a very nice guy. Certainly the offense didn't flourish under his guidance. But he had such a short time of one season before he was let go. Seems to me there had to be other issues than just a poor win/loss record. Stoops is the first to tell us it takes time (4seasons?, 5?) to turn things around, so he should be the last to fire a coach he just hired--after a single season.

So I can only assume it must have been other things which, so far as I know, some kind of clashing. We could see some occasions on the sidelines in which they appeared to be making sharp harsh comments, but nothing to suggest firing the assisstant.

Has there been discussion here? Does anyone know for sure what was behind Dawson's dismissal? I'm just curious. No wonder UK had to pay an out-of-line salary to Gran and his assissant. They must recognize the perilous nature of their UK jobs.

 

[jauk11]

I'm not sure your "speculation" should be discussed.

 

[SpamburgerHamburger_rivals101482]

Your post seems trolly a bit, so I'm not sure why you worded things that way, but the bottom line is there was a difference in philosophy. Stoops didn't trust Dawson to call a game in the way Stoops wanted. It's not a knock on Dawson, it just didn't work out.

 

[3kidsandme]

I'm quite late in bringing up this question. If it's been discussed here already, I apologize.

I recently read that UK's fired OC had landed a similar job at a lesser school. He seemed to be a very nice guy. Certainly the offense didn't flourish under his guidance. But he had such a short time of one season before he was let go. Seems to me there had to be other issues than just a poor win/loss record. Stoops is the first to tell us it takes time (4seasons?, 5?) to turn things around, so he should be the last to fire a coach he just hired--after a single season.

So I can only assume it must have been other things which, so far as I know, some kind of clashing. We could see some occasions on the sidelines in which they appeared to be making sharp harsh comments, but nothing to suggest firing the assisstant.

Has there been discussion here? Does anyone know for sure what was behind Dawson's dismissal? I'm just curious. No wonder UK had to pay an out-of-line salary to Gran and his assissant. They must recognize the perilous nature of their UK jobs.

We are paying Gran 300,000 less than what Louisville is paying a dcoordinator that Georgia did not really want. His pay is appropriate for a high level coordinator. His offenses at Cincy where big time.

 

[JHB4UK]

We fired Dawson 2 months ago, trolly trollerson, and all of us covered those issues and speculation in December

 

[BlueRaider22]

Mainly just a difference in philosophy.....and so therefore a lack of trust on Stoops' part.

I think Stoops wanted a fairly balanced offense like what Holgosen runs at WVU but Dawson wanted to throw. Dawson didn't want Towles to run at all. Dawson wanted to throw the ball in goal line and short yardage situations. Stoops has said over, and over that he desired flexibility on offense.....Dawson just wasn't. Things like that.

In all it wasn't a good hire from a fit standpoint. And it likely cost us a game or two. But do credit Stoops for making a change after 1 yr. And also credit Stoops for going out and getting a proven OC in his friend Gran who runs a perfect fit offense.

 

[hs_sportsfan]

The bottom line is this. Stoops made one bad decision by not allowing Dawson to bring in at least one coach to help him with his system. With that being said Stoops realized early that Dawson was not the correct fit but always showed support publicly which is exactly what he should do. Coach Stoops had 100% confidence in Brown and he has 100% confidence in Gran so I think the layout is currently right. However that should not be a reflection on Dawson as a subpar OC, I don' think you can say yes or no to that fact currently he know has the opportunity to show his stuff and he better make this one count.

 

[ukalum1988]

We fired Dawson 2 months ago, trolly trollerson, and all of us covered those issues and speculation in December

Agreed. I've already put last season in the rear view mirror and suggest that the OP do the same.

 

[T75]

Often comments tell more about the poster than they do the post. I've not routinely followed this board and pointed out that it was a quite late subject. And I apologized if I was just re-hashing a well-discussed subject

I've been an avid UK fan about as long as your grandpas have, yet some of you who know nothing about me, but apparently are having a challenging day want to be nasty and a use me of trolling.

I have no fespect for you at all, but I do wish you well in your future pot shots and hope you aren't so wrong so often in the futire.

 

[WildCard]

Mainly just a difference in philosophy.....and so therefore a lack of trust on Stoops' part.

I think Stoops wanted a fairly balanced offense like what Holgosen runs at WVU but Dawson wanted to throw. Dawson didn't want Towles to run at all. Dawson wanted to throw the ball in goal line and short yardage situations. Stoops has said over, and over that he desired flexibility on offense.....Dawson just wasn't. Things like that.

In all it wasn't a good hire from a fit standpoint. And it likely cost us a game or two. But do credit Stoops for making a change after 1 yr. And also credit Stoops for going out and getting a proven OC in his friend Gran who runs a perfect fit offense.

I think the above boldfaced comment pretty well answers the OP's question as well as any of us can.

Dawson had a pretty solid resume having coached WRs, RBs and, most importantly, played QB as a player and coached QBs in his pre-UK career. He "studied" 3 years under Dana Holgerson, a former Air Raid guru who was moving to a more balanced offensive style but retaining certain elements of the Air Raid offense. Dawson ran a perfectly balanced 50/50 pass/run offense. He let the RBs run the ball just like I and many others clamored for in 2014 when QB Towles was far and away the Cats leading rusher.

FWIW, I thought Dawson was a really good hire when Stoops named him OC. So did Stoops (see link). He seemed like a good choice to continue the offensive style UK ran for 2 years under Brown. While you can always find some play calling sequences for any team in any season that suck but there was not as much offensive regression under Dawson as many here think. In 2014 the Cats averaged 26.5 PPG against FBS opponents but were helped out by an average of 3.2 PPG non-offensive scores in those 11 games. In 2015 the Cats averaged 23.8 PPG against FBS opponents but were helped out by only 1.9 PPG in non offense scores. So the true offensive difference between 2014 and 2015 was a decline of only 1.4 PPG.

I think the fans simply expected a better offense in 2015 and it did not happen. Being a year older does not guarantee being better. And while the 2015 schedule was as "easy" as UK has seen in long time, you still have to go out and win on the field.

Bottom line here for me (and this is pure speculation on my part) is that I don't think Dawson was let go because he was a bad coach. As BR22 put it, for some reason, he was just not a good fit at UK.

Other than QB, Gran is left with essentially the same offense as last year. Should he have a similar offensive performance as last year it will be interesting to see how the fans react. All JMO.

Peace

 

[KY1WING]

... Dawson didn't want Towles to run at all. Dawson wanted to throw the ball in goal line and short yardage situations...

I never heard it discussed but I believe Dawson didn't want his QBs running because it creates the habit of bailing early and Staying in, making reads and running the plays.

As far as throwing on the goal line ... Hasn't it been discussed that the QB could check out of plays and that's what he did on the goal line ... Checked out of the called running plays into passing plays?

As discussed, for whatever reason it was a bad fit and was brought to an abrupt end. All parties (HC, OC, QB) have moved on to new situations. We'll see if their new situations are any better come Sept 3.

Just another unfortunate chapter in a series of unfortunate chapters known as Kentucky football.

 

[KY1WING]

... Instead of staying in and making reads and ...

Spellcheck

 

[WildcatofNati]

I think the above boldfaced comment pretty well answers the OP's question as well as any of us can.

Dawson had a pretty solid resume having coached WRs, RBs and, most importantly, played QB as a player and coached QBs in his pre-UK career. He "studied" 3 years under Dana Holgerson, a former Air Raid guru who was moving to a more balanced offensive style but retaining certain elements of the Air Raid offense. Dawson ran a perfectly balanced 50/50 pass/run offense. He let the RBs run the ball just like I and many others clamored for in 2014 when QB Towles was far and away the Cats leading rusher.

FWIW, I thought Dawson was a really good hire when Stoops named him OC. So did Stoops (see link). He seemed like a good choice to continue the offensive style UK ran for 2 years under Brown. While you can always find some play calling sequences for any team in any season that suck but there was not as much offensive regression under Dawson as many here think. In 2014 the Cats averaged 26.5 PPG against FBS opponents but were helped out by an average of 3.2 PPG non-offensive scores in those 11 games. In 2015 the Cats averaged 23.8 PPG against FBS opponents but were helped out by only 1.9 PPG in non offense scores. So the true offensive difference between 2014 and 2015 was a decline of only 1.4 PPG.

I think the fans simply expected a better offense in 2015 and it did not happen. Being a year older does not guarantee being better. And while the 2015 schedule was as "easy" as UK has seen in long time, you still have to go out and win on the field.

Bottom line here for me (and this is pure speculation on my part) is that I don't think Dawson was let go because he was a bad coach. As BR22 put it, for some reason, he was just not a good fit at UK.

Other than QB, Gran is left with essentially the same offense as last year. Should he have a similar offensive performance as last year it will be interesting to see how the fans react. All JMO.

Peace

I actually agree with most of your points here. However, there are two things that I would point out.

First, being left with the same offense as last year means something very different in college than it does in the NFL. In the NFL, you can expect a similar performance as you had the previous year unless you have a lot of young up and comers, or a lot of players on the decline. In college football, you have to hope that every player takes a major step forward with each year until they leave. Were it otherwise, then every year, every team would get worse because they are replacing graduating seniors with incoming freshmen. Returning 10 starters shouldn't mean an expectation of status quo; it should mean an expectation of significant improvement. Which is not to say that improvement is a guarantee; if Barker (or Johnson, or Hoak) plays even worse than Towles; or if there are a lot of injuries or suspensions; etc; then things may not be better at all. Returning 10 starters is not a guarantee that the offense is better, but it should be a reasonable expectation.

Second, our offense was worse last year than it was in 2014, regardless of the average points that our offense scored compared to the previous. It's not all Dawson's fault, because the losses of Miller, Heard, Blue, and Robinson were in retrospect bigger losses than most would have thought. But the 2014 offense was better than the 2015 offense. In 2015, the only teams that we played that were better than their 2014 versions were Florida and Tennessee and Vanderbilt. Miss St., Auburn (compared to LSU in 2014), Louisville, Georgia, South Carolina, and Missouri were all worse- in some cases, much worse. With competition taken into account, the offensive performance in 2015 was putrid. I don't put it all on Dawson, but I can't really blame Stoops for deciding to go in a different direction.

 

[jauk11]

I think the above boldfaced comment pretty well answers the OP's question as well as any of us can.

Dawson had a pretty solid resume having coached WRs, RBs and, most importantly, played QB as a player and coached QBs in his pre-UK career. He "studied" 3 years under Dana Holgerson, a former Air Raid guru who was moving to a more balanced offensive style but retaining certain elements of the Air Raid offense. Dawson ran a perfectly balanced 50/50 pass/run offense. He let the RBs run the ball just like I and many others clamored for in 2014 when QB Towles was far and away the Cats leading rusher.

FWIW, I thought Dawson was a really good hire when Stoops named him OC. So did Stoops (see link). He seemed like a good choice to continue the offensive style UK ran for 2 years under Brown. While you can always find some play calling sequences for any team in any season that suck but there was not as much offensive regression under Dawson as many here think. In 2014 the Cats averaged 26.5 PPG against FBS opponents but were helped out by an average of 3.2 PPG non-offensive scores in those 11 games. In 2015 the Cats averaged 23.8 PPG against FBS opponents but were helped out by only 1.9 PPG in non offense scores. So the true offensive difference between 2014 and 2015 was a decline of only 1.4 PPG.

I think the fans simply expected a better offense in 2015 and it did not happen. Being a year older does not guarantee being better. And while the 2015 schedule was as "easy" as UK has seen in long time, you still have to go out and win on the field.

Bottom line here for me (and this is pure speculation on my part) is that I don't think Dawson was let go because he was a bad coach. As BR22 put it, for some reason, he was just not a good fit at UK.

Other than QB, Gran is left with essentially the same offense as last year. Should he have a similar offensive performance as last year it will be interesting to see how the fans react. All JMO.

Peace

I agree with a lot of your post, but I think a running QB is a huge advantage and I think Towles was very good at it, a load at 240# and probably as fast as some of our other RBs. See the UL game.

I think Gran being left with basically the same offense (personnel wise) should be a huge advantage, almost every position with a returning starter or a new upgrade. QB the only real question IMO, and they did add a couple of options and all the returning players should make the QB look better than he is, JMO.

If our offense isn't much better then I will be very disappointed, but Bama and a few other SEC teams might make it look worse.

 

[BlueRaider22]

I never heard it discussed but I believe Dawson didn't want his QBs running because it creates the habit of bailing early and Staying in, making reads and running the plays.

As far as throwing on the goal line ... Hasn't it been discussed that the QB could check out of plays and that's what he did on the goal line ... Checked out of the called running plays into passing plays?

As discussed, for whatever reason it was a bad fit and was brought to an abrupt end. All parties (HC, OC, QB) have moved on to new situations. We'll see if their new situations are any better come Sept 3.

Just another unfortunate chapter in a series of unfortunate chapters known as Kentucky football.

I know that Dawson told Towles "Do you want to be a QB or a RB?" And he was shouting very loudly the time I heard it. I have no problem with this stance, but it doesn't exactly demonstrate Stoops' desire for flexibility. Flexibility would demand that the OC use the most out of the tools at his disposal. Stoops' mind says, "If the QB can run, then why would you tie his feet?" Dawson's mind says, "Why run it when you can throw it?" It's not necessarily wrong either way but it does illustrate a difference in philosophy.

And certainly Towles did have the ability to check out of plays on the goal line, but it hardly was all him. And, in the situation we had last yr, the OC should retain total control. So, if Towles was checking off to pass too much, the OC should step in and correct the issue.

 

[Littlefeller_rivals66952]

IMHO the difference in philosophy(between Stoops and a running QB and Dawson and not running the QB) was demonstrated as soon as Gran was hired when they went and got a dual threat QB. This is no slam on Dawson whatsoever but as stated many times above just a different type of philosophy

 

[Pike 96]

I think the above boldfaced comment pretty well answers the OP's question as well as any of us can.

Dawson had a pretty solid resume having coached WRs, RBs and, most importantly, played QB as a player and coached QBs in his pre-UK career. He "studied" 3 years under Dana Holgerson, a former Air Raid guru who was moving to a more balanced offensive style but retaining certain elements of the Air Raid offense. Dawson ran a perfectly balanced 50/50 pass/run offense. He let the RBs run the ball just like I and many others clamored for in 2014 when QB Towles was far and away the Cats leading rusher.

FWIW, I thought Dawson was a really good hire when Stoops named him OC. So did Stoops (see link). He seemed like a good choice to continue the offensive style UK ran for 2 years under Brown. While you can always find some play calling sequences for any team in any season that suck but there was not as much offensive regression under Dawson as many here think. In 2014 the Cats averaged 26.5 PPG against FBS opponents but were helped out by an average of 3.2 PPG non-offensive scores in those 11 games. In 2015 the Cats averaged 23.8 PPG against FBS opponents but were helped out by only 1.9 PPG in non offense scores. So the true offensive difference between 2014 and 2015 was a decline of only 1.4 PPG.

I think the fans simply expected a better offense in 2015 and it did not happen. Being a year older does not guarantee being better. And while the 2015 schedule was as "easy" as UK has seen in long time, you still have to go out and win on the field.

Bottom line here for me (and this is pure speculation on my part) is that I don't think Dawson was let go because he was a bad coach. As BR22 put it, for some reason, he was just not a good fit at UK.

Other than QB, Gran is left with essentially the same offense as last year. Should he have a similar offensive performance as last year it will be interesting to see how the fans react. All JMO.

Peace

You know, I read the cards premium site and it is amazing how night and day your posts are from that board to this. I highly doubt you cheer for UK in any shape or form.

Your post above illustrates that point with it's support of Dawson, comparison numbers in support of his offense, and summary that we have essentially the same offense next year as we do this past year.

As stated above, you completely undervalue how much better our offense should have been last year with the same personnel. Dawson's playcalling was atrocious with no feel for the game. All I had to see was the 4th and 1 fly route at the Vandy 50 yard line.

As far as being essentially the same next year...we replace the single most important player in the qb. We also replace both Tackles with 2 players offered by Bama. Which although not ideal to start 1st year players, the talent upgrade is substantial verses the guys that gave up the most sacks in the sec.

I get the distinct feeling you'd be happy to see the offense struggle next year to turn up the heat on stoops.

 

[3kidsandme]

You know, I read the cards premium site and it is amazing how night and day your posts are from that board to this. I highly doubt you cheer for UK in any shape or form.

Your post above illustrates that point with it's support of Dawson, comparison numbers in support of his offense, and summary that we have essentially the same offense next year as we do this past year.

As stated above, you completely undervalue how much better our offense should have been last year with the same personnel. Dawson's playcalling was atrocious with no feel for the game. All I had to see was the 4th and 1 fly route at the Vandy 50 yard line.

As far as being essentially the same next year...we replace the single most important player in the qb. We also replace both Tackles with 2 players offered by Bama. Which although not ideal to start 1st year players, the talent upgrade is substantial verses the guys that gave up the most sacks in the sec.

I get the distinct feeling you'd be happy to see the offense struggle next year to turn up the heat on stoops.

I agree 100 percent. I will bet any uofl fan 50 bucks that Gran's offense will average more than 24 ppg that Dawson offense averaged. If Dawson was so great wtf was he fired after 1 year. Like I have said before I'm sure he knows Xs and Os but he can't call a decent game to save his life.

 

[BobbyK49]

I actually agree with most of your points here. However, there are two things that I would point out.

First, being left with the same offense as last year means something very different in college than it does in the NFL. In the NFL, you can expect a similar performance as you had the previous year unless you have a lot of young up and comers, or a lot of players on the decline. In college football, you have to hope that every player takes a major step forward with each year until they leave. Were it otherwise, then every year, every team would get worse because they are replacing graduating seniors with incoming freshmen. Returning 10 starters shouldn't mean an expectation of status quo; it should mean an expectation of significant improvement. Which is not to say that improvement is a guarantee; if Barker (or Johnson, or Hoak) plays even worse than Towles; or if there are a lot of injuries or suspensions; etc; then things may not be better at all. Returning 10 starters is not a guarantee that the offense is better, but it should be a reasonable expectation.

Second, our offense was worse last year than it was in 2014, regardless of the average points that our offense scored compared to the previous. It's not all Dawson's fault, because the losses of Miller, Heard, Blue, and Robinson were in retrospect bigger losses than most would have thought. But the 2014 offense was better than the 2015 offense. In 2015, the only teams that we played that were better than their 2014 versions were Florida and Tennessee and Vanderbilt. Miss St., Auburn (compared to LSU in 2014), Louisville, Georgia, South Carolina, and Missouri were all worse- in some cases, much worse. With competition taken into account, the offensive performance in 2015 was putrid. I don't put it all on Dawson, but I can't really blame Stoops for deciding to go in a different direction.

Dawson was hired as OC/QB Coach. One of the reasons fans had higher expectations for 2015 was that they expected Towles to be a much better QB than in 2014

I'm quite late in bringing up this question. If it's been discussed here already, I apologize.

I recently read that UK's fired OC had landed a similar job at a lesser school. He seemed to be a very nice guy. Certainly the offense didn't flourish under his guidance. But he had such a short time of one season before he was let go. Seems to me there had to be other issues than just a poor win/loss record. Stoops is the first to tell us it takes time (4seasons?, 5?) to turn things around, so he should be the last to fire a coach he just hired--after a single season.

So I can only assume it must have been other things which, so far as I know, some kind of clashing. We could see some occasions on the sidelines in which they appeared to be making sharp harsh comments, but nothing to suggest firing the assisstant.

Has there been discussion here? Does anyone know for sure what was behind Dawson's dismissal? I'm just curious. No wonder UK had to pay an out-of-line salary to Gran and his assissant. They must recognize the perilous nature of their UK jobs.

I've read some of the responses to your post and I'm surprised more people didn't bring up the fact that Dawson was also the QB coach as well as the OC. It's surprising to me because I think it was his failure in that part of his job that mostly led to his dismissal. When Dawson threw out the QB run plays he took away one of the more successful aspects of the 2014 offense and, in effect, announced that his offense would go as far as Towles's arm could carry them. We saw how that worked out. DAwson seemed like a nice guy and I wish him well but in my mind his dismissal was totally justified.

 

[UKCatNnc]

We are paying Gran 300,000 less than what Louisville is paying a dcoordinator that Georgia did not really want. His pay is appropriate for a high level coordinator. His offenses at Cincy where big time.

It was obviously satisfactory to Gran; and his performance will be rewarded. Go Cats!!

 

[Oldtrainer_rivals]

You know, I read the cards premium site and it is amazing how night and day your posts are from that board to this. I highly doubt you cheer for UK in any shape or form.

Your post above illustrates that point with it's support of Dawson, comparison numbers in support of his offense, and summary that we have essentially the same offense next year as we do this past year.

As stated above, you completely undervalue how much better our offense should have been last year with the same personnel. Dawson's playcalling was atrocious with no feel for the game. All I had to see was the 4th and 1 fly route at the Vandy 50 yard line.

As far as being essentially the same next year...we replace the single most important player in the qb. We also replace both Tackles with 2 players offered by Bama. Which although not ideal to start 1st year players, the talent upgrade is substantial verses the guys that gave up the most sacks in the sec.

I get the distinct feeling you'd be happy to see the offense struggle next year to turn up the heat on stoops.

^^^Bingo, you nailed it!^^^

 

[Oldtrainer_rivals]

After last year spring game/scrimmage I thought coach Dawson offense would be a good fit. Certainly was not what I consider 'Air Raid'.
During the season at times and certainly at the end I knew Stoops/Dawson was any thing but a good fit!
"Other than QB, Gran is left with essentially the same offense as last year. Should have a similar offensive offense performance as last year it will interesting to see how fans react." Another classic back door comment by the always entertaining WildCard.
Good Lord willing I'll be at Spring game and expect to see lot of same personal but different style of offense! Both coaches Gran and Hinshaw know Drew strengths and think as of now it's his job to keep or lose. I do read a lot in both coaches first priority going after Johnson.My UK football glass is always half full!

 

[hmt5000]

Depending on how OT shakes out this offense may be way better. We couldn't block speed rushers on the outside last year. Drew will probably be more accurate than Pat was last year. If he gets an extra second to read and throw then I think we can get up up to the 33 or 35 ppg area.... not predicting it but it really could be as simple OT playing better week by week.

 

[screwduke]

This has been discussed 500 times on here.

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

Dawson's playcalling was atrocious with no feel for the game. All I had to see was the 4th and 1 fly route at the Vandy 50 yard line.

I actually thought his playcalling was decent. I thought every other aspect of coaching offense was where he was lacking. Our execution was beyond terrible, especially on screen passes. Hard to understand being so poor at the SEC level.

 

[WildCard]

You know, I read the cards premium site and it is amazing how night and day your posts are from that board to this. I highly doubt you cheer for UK in any shape or form.

(1) Your post above illustrates that point with it's support of Dawson, comparison numbers in support of his offense, and summary that we have essentially the same offense next year as we do this past year.

(2) As stated above, you completely undervalue how much better our offense should have been last year with the same personnel. Dawson's playcalling was atrocious with no feel for the game. (3) All I had to see was the 4th and 1 fly route at the Vandy 50 yard line.

(4) As far as being essentially the same next year...we replace the single most important player in the qb. We also replace both Tackles with 2 players offered by Bama. Which although not ideal to start 1st year players, the talent upgrade is substantial verses the guys that gave up the most sacks in the sec.

(5) I get the distinct feeling you'd be happy to see the offense struggle next year to turn up the heat on stoops.

Then I hope you have read my posts that were "critical" of some of CBP's coaching as well as my "disagreements" with some other fans. Some rebuttals to your remarks above...

(1) As far as the post in this thread that you mention I am not "supporting" Dawson or his offense. I cite some numbers only to factually support the statement his offense was not that much worse (statistically) than the year before. It was his 1st year at calling plays but also his first year with these players and the rest of the staff. That earns some slack in my book. But the schedule was easier this year than in 2014 so that count's for something as well. Whatever the reasons, performance or personality, it did not work out between Dawson and Stoops and they have parted ways.

(2) What you are saying here is the offense apparently did not meet your expectations therefore this must have been the Dawson's fault. Returning players does not guarantee improvement.

(3) That was a bad call but what was worse was the call to go for it on 4th down, And that was Stoop's call, not Dawson's. Furthermore, I'm sure Stoops could have "overridden" the call or called a TO. I think you are criticizing the wrong coach on this one.

(4) Not really sure what you are saying here. Technically I think UK loses only 2 offensive staters, QB and OT. That is, as I said in my post, is essentially the same offense (i.e., personnel) as last year. How he shapes it or changes it is yet to seen.

(5) No, other than against the Cards I would not be "happy" to see a floundering UK offense. I don't consider Stoops on the hot seat but another 5-6 season would certainly (and justifiably, IMO) turn up the heat. But given all the criticism of "Dawson's failed offense" I was just wondering out loud what the fan reaction would be if Gran's offense is similarly productive.

FWIW, I recently watched the Cincy-Temple game trying to get a handle on "what" is Gran's offense. I won't go into any real detail based on one game (one that got away from Cincy early in the 3rd QTR) but the biggest difference seems to be no huddle and up tempo. Similar sets, basic 1 back shotgun RB runs and no real read option or QB run stuff. The QB seems to frequently audible or adjust at the LOS so this offense will probably put more pressure on the QB in the "LOS decision making" department than did Brown's scheme.

Peace

 

[Pike 96]

Then I hope you have read my posts that were "critical" of some of CBP's coaching as well as my "disagreements" with some other fans. Some rebuttals to your remarks above...

(1) As far as the post in this thread that you mention I am not "supporting" Dawson or his offense. I cite some numbers only to factually support the statement his offense was not that much worse (statistically) than the year before. It was his 1st year at calling plays but also his first year with these players and the rest of the staff. That earns some slack in my book. But the schedule was easier this year than in 2014 so that count's for something as well. Whatever the reasons, performance or personality, it did not work out between Dawson and Stoops and they have parted ways.

(2) What you are saying here is the offense apparently did not meet your expectations therefore this must have been the Dawson's fault. Returning players does not guarantee improvement.

(3) That was a bad call but what was worse was the call to go for it on 4th down, And that was Stoop's call, not Dawson's. Furthermore, I'm sure Stoops could have "overridden" the call or called a TO. I think you are criticizing the wrong coach on this one.

(4) Not really sure what you are saying here. Technically I think UK loses only 2 offensive staters, QB and OT. That is, as I said in my post, is essentially the same offense (i.e., personnel) as last year. How he shapes it or changes it is yet to seen.

(5) No, other than against the Cards I would not be "happy" to see a floundering UK offense. I don't consider Stoops on the hot seat but another 5-6 season would certainly (and justifiably, IMO) turn up the heat. But given all the criticism of "Dawson's failed offense" I was just wondering out loud what the fan reaction would be if Gran's offense is similarly productive.

FWIW, I recently watched the Cincy-Temple game trying to get a handle on "what" is Gran's offense. I won't go into any real detail based on one game (one that got away from Cincy early in the 3rd QTR) but the biggest difference seems to be no huddle and up tempo. Similar sets, basic 1 back shotgun RB runs and no real read option or QB run stuff. The QB seems to frequently audible or adjust at the LOS so this offense will probably put more pressure on the QB in the "LOS decision making" department than did Brown's scheme.

Peace

I stand by what I originally stated. Your posts on the UL site are often condescending in a "see what the UK fans are saying now" kind of way. Which necessitates every analytical opinion you share on this site be taken with a serious grain of salt.

As far as your rebuttal...the overriding point of your original post was that the offensive stats between 2014 and 2015 were not very different(which was a massive over simplification for judging Dawson's effectiveness as an OC), that we don't have much difference in personnel this year verses last, and you'd expect(and celebrate in my opinion) the UK fan base putting Stoops on the hot seat if he doesn't win more games this year. That's a curious position...how many games will UK be favored in next year? 4? Maybe 5? So why should the heat be turned up exactly if he wins 5 or 6 games?

As far as your position that Stoops call to go for it on 4th and 1 at Vandy being worse than the play call...I think that's complete crap. There is absolutely no comparison in the horrible nature of the two choices. 1 out of 100(if that) OC's would have called that play call in that situation! I would wager 50%+ of the head coaches( including the genius Petrino) would go for the yard in that situation with the way UK's Defense and Vandys Offense were playing. Stoops mistake was not overriding the play call. And I expect he will learn from that. Playing to win was not a bad mindset in that situation. But calling a fling and pray fly pattern in that situation wasn't playing agressive. It was HOPING someone would make a bail out play when not needed.

And my point about personnel was that although technically we only lose 2 starters in QB and OT...the changes are much more drastic than you suggest(Which is obvious and therefore annoying). We change the single most important position in QB. And we change BOTH offensive tackles, as you no doubt realize, because a Guard was playing Tackle and our protection from the Tackle spot was atrocious. The personnel changes being made are at positions that provide a boom or bust type of situation. Regardless, I expect Grans experience in calling plays to provide the Offense more cohesiveness and flow than Dawson's disjointed, noncreative approach.

 

[BlueRaider22]

2013 offense – 20.5 pts/g, 44:56 pass/rush, 64.5 plays/g, 341.3 yds/game

2013 defense – 31.2 pts/g, 427.2 yds/game, 229.8 pass, 197.3 rush



2014 offense – 29.2 pts/g, 48:52 pass/rush, 70.8 plays/g, 384.3 yds/game

2014 defense – 31.2 pts/g, 406.9 yds/game, 215.8 pass, 191.2 rush



2015 offense – 24.7 pts/g, 48:52 pass/rush, 68.0 plays/g, 372.0 yds/game

2015 defense – 27.4 pts/g, 394.2 yds/game, 198.1 pass, 196.1 rush



The defense over the last 3 yrs has been trending towards improvement. It shaved almost 3 pts/game from 2014 to 2015.....and this was despite an offense that declined. The offense showed a massive improvement from '13 to '14, but despite the improvement in personnel across the board, we dropped about 4-5 pts/game production.

 

[Deeeefense]

I think there were other issues with Dawson besides some questionable coaching decisions that resulted in his departure, player-coach player-player and even coach-coach. Not blaming Dawson necessarily just saying that he apparently was not a good fit. I hope he does well at southern Miss. I think he is a fundamentally a good coach.

 

[theoledog]

I think there were other issues with Dawson besides some questionable coaching decisions that resulted in his departure, player-coach player-player and even coach-coach. Not blaming Dawson necessarily just saying that he apparently was not a good fit. I hope he does well at southern Miss. I think he is a fundamentally a good coach.

I think you on da money..........

 

[BlueRaider22]

I think there were other issues with Dawson besides some questionable coaching decisions that resulted in his departure, player-coach player-player and even coach-coach. Not blaming Dawson necessarily just saying that he apparently was not a good fit. I hope he does well at southern Miss. I think he is a fundamentally a good coach.

I agree. It was just a poor fit and poor timing. It's hard to go from SFA and Millsaps, to not calling plays several yrs at WVU, then jumping headlong into the SEC with a not yet fully developed roster. I don't think Dawson was a complete flop in that he won't amount to being a good OC. It's just that he has to grow and mature as a play caller. And Stoops couldn't afford to wait.....

 

[WildCard]

I stand by what I originally stated. (1) Your posts on the UL site are often condescending in a "see what the UK fans are saying now" kind of way. Which necessitates every analytical opinion you share on this site be taken with a serious grain of salt.

(2) As far as your rebuttal...the overriding point of your original post was that the offensive stats between 2014 and 2015 were not very different(which was a massive over simplification for judging Dawson's effectiveness as an OC), that we don't have much difference in personnel this year verses last, and you'd expect(and celebrate in my opinion) the UK fan base putting Stoops on the hot seat if he doesn't win more games this year. That's a curious position...how many games will UK be favored in next year? 4? Maybe 5? So why should the heat be turned up exactly if he wins 5 or 6 games?

(3) As far as your position that Stoops call to go for it on 4th and 1 at Vandy being worse than the play call...I think that's complete crap. There is absolutely no comparison in the horrible nature of the two choices. 1 out of 100(if that) OC's would have called that play call in that situation! I would wager 50%+ of the head coaches( including the genius Petrino) would go for the yard in that situation with the way UK's Defense and Vandys Offense were playing. Stoops mistake was not overriding the play call. And I expect he will learn from that. Playing to win was not a bad mindset in that situation. But calling a fling and pray fly pattern in that situation wasn't playing agressive. It was HOPING someone would make a bail out play when not needed.

(4) And my point about personnel was that although technically we only lose 2 starters in QB and OT...the changes are much more drastic than you suggest(Which is obvious and therefore annoying). We change the single most important position in QB. And we change BOTH offensive tackles, as you no doubt realize, because a Guard was playing Tackle and our protection from the Tackle spot was atrocious. The personnel changes being made are at positions that provide a boom or bust type of situation. Regardless, I expect Grans experience in calling plays to provide the Offense more cohesiveness and flow than Dawson's disjointed, noncreative approach.

It will do no good (we obviously see Dawson's performance at UK in totally different lights) but I will reply....

(1) I'm not sure how my posts about UK on the UofL site are "condescending" or in any way affect the "analytical data" (not opinion) that I frequently offer. And I don't recall addressing "fans", only topics. I will make the same critiques of UK there as I do here but, yes, I will sometimes be more "courteous" here because I understand I am a guest here.

(2) I get your point; you apparently think Dawson was absolutely the worst OC in the history of UK football and should have achieved more with a team that was pretty much picked by every objective "expert" to finish next to last in the SECE. FWIW, I see 4 posts following your above post that suggest the same thing as my original post, i.e., for some reason Dawson was more of a "bad fit" rather than a "bad coach". I've seen a number of posts along those same lines. The "fact" is UK has a lot of offensive starters returning for 2016 and most of the time that is a good thing.

As for Stoop's "hot seat status" I do think it will heat up if they don't win at least 6 this year. But if it happens it won't be because of what I think; you'll read plenty about it on this board. I may be totally wrong but for all the good recruiting and facility improvement I sense that most UK fans think it is time to now show improvement in the form of the W/L record.

As for 2016, we will get our first good look at the "objective" expectations for UK (and everybody else) when Steele's magazine comes out in June. I have found his pre-season W/L projections ("hidden" in other numbers) to be astonishingly accurate for such early projections.

(3) Well, we disagree whether the call to go for it was "correct" but we seem to be in agreement that CMS certainly should have overridden that particular call. FWIW, going into that play UK had 80 yards rushing on 21 attempts but 38 yards came on 1 run. IOW, the Vandy run defense was very good and had already stopped UK on 3 runs and a pass at the 1 yard line. And it was the inexperienced Barker who had just thrown a pick 6 on his last series.

(4) Obviously a new QB is a big deal but the rest of the offense, despite any position switches in the O-line, remains intact. We will just have to wait and see what the new OLs add to the situation.

I just watched the Cincy-Temple game and I do agree that there will be more "consistency" in Gran's approach than Dawson's approach. I noticed that Cincy was in the same sets running the same plays the entire game. Dawson would seeming "change offenses" every few series such as moving from a 4 wide set to a "diamond full house". It did look like he was grab bagging at times.

Let's just agree to disagree on these topics and argue over something else. [winking]

Peace

 

[Pike 96]

It will do no good (we obviously see Dawson's performance at UK in totally different lights) but I will reply....

(1) I'm not sure how my posts about UK on the UofL site are "condescending" or in any way affect the "analytical data" (not opinion) that I frequently offer. And I don't recall addressing "fans", only topics. I will make the same critiques of UK there as I do here but, yes, I will sometimes be more "courteous" here because I understand I am a guest here.

(2) I get your point; you apparently think Dawson was absolutely the worst OC in the history of UK football and should have achieved more with a team that was pretty much picked by every objective "expert" to finish next to last in the SECE. FWIW, I see 4 posts following your above post that suggest the same thing as my original post, i.e., for some reason Dawson was more of a "bad fit" rather than a "bad coach". I've seen a number of posts along those same lines. The "fact" is UK has a lot of offensive starters returning for 2016 and most of the time that is a good thing.

As for Stoop's "hot seat status" I do think it will heat up if they don't win at least 6 this year. But if it happens it won't be because of what I think; you'll read plenty about it on this board. I may be totally wrong but for all the good recruiting and facility improvement I sense that most UK fans think it is time to now show improvement in the form of the W/L record.

As for 2016, we will get our first good look at the "objective" expectations for UK (and everybody else) when Steele's magazine comes out in June. I have found his pre-season W/L projections ("hidden" in other numbers) to be astonishingly accurate for such early projections.

(3) Well, we disagree whether the call to go for it was "correct" but we seem to be in agreement that CMS certainly should have overridden that particular call. FWIW, going into that play UK had 80 yards rushing on 21 attempts but 38 yards came on 1 run. IOW, the Vandy run defense was very good and had already stopped UK on 3 runs and a pass at the 1 yard line. And it was the inexperienced Barker who had just thrown a pick 6 on his last series.

(4) Obviously a new QB is a big deal but the rest of the offense, despite any position switches in the O-line, remains intact. We will just have to wait and see what the new OLs add to the situation.

I just watched the Cincy-Temple game and I do agree that there will be more "consistency" in Gran's approach than Dawson's approach. I noticed that Cincy was in the same sets running the same plays the entire game. Dawson would seeming "change offenses" every few series such as moving from a 4 wide set to a "diamond full house". It did look like he was grab bagging at times.

Let's just agree to disagree on these topics and argue over something else. [winking]

Peace

Fair enough on the agree to disagree. Bit a couple things:

I never said Dawson was a terrible coach and certainly not the worst in UK history considering Eliot Uzilack used Tim Couch to run the option. But he was clearly in over his head with experience from a play calling perspective and certainly from a creativity standpoint. If you are UK playing an SEC defense (or UL for that matter) you need to keep the other team off balance to truly be successful. Petrino is very good at that. Dawson showed none of that. Way to predictable. He may be a fine play caller in time but that isn't the case at this point. Like all of us I expect he'll learn from these mistakes. But we need someone presently that learned from mistakes made elsewhere. That is why he was and is a "bad fit".

As far as what the experts thought of us and the expectations we had for the offense. Being picked last in the SEC East had no bearing on legitimate expectations to have an improved offense when almost everyone returned, several pieces were added and you were supposed to have a pro caliber QB with a years experience and growth under his belt. The pedestrian offensive out put from the previous year got worse. Had nothing to do with were we were picked to finish. Had to do with little to no progress.

As for the play call on 4th and 1. I didn't say, nor do I think, Stoops decision to go for it was the clear cut choice. As Vandy had a very good run defense and we weren't making lots of plays on them. I would have been fine with a punt. But I was equally fine with going for it given the variables involved at the time.

 

[WildCard]

Fair enough on the agree to disagree. Bit a couple things:

I never said Dawson was a terrible coach and certainly not the worst in UK history considering Eliot Uzilack used Tim Couch to run the option. But he was clearly in over his head with experience from a play calling perspective and certainly from a creativity standpoint. If you are UK playing an SEC defense (or UL for that matter) you need to keep the other team off balance to truly be successful. Petrino is very good at that. Dawson showed none of that. Way to predictable. He may be a fine play caller in time but that isn't the case at this point. Like all of us I expect he'll learn from these mistakes. But we need someone presently that learned from mistakes made elsewhere. That is why he was and is a "bad fit".

As far as what the experts thought of us and the expectations we had for the offense. Being picked last in the SEC East had no bearing on legitimate expectations to have an improved offense when almost everyone returned, several pieces were added and you were supposed to have a pro caliber QB with a years experience and growth under his belt. The pedestrian offensive out put from the previous year got worse. Had nothing to do with were we were picked to finish. Had to do with little to no progress.

As for the play call on 4th and 1. I didn't say, nor do I think, Stoops decision to go for it was the clear cut choice. As Vandy had a very good run defense and we weren't making lots of plays on them. I would have been fine with a punt. But I was equally fine with going for it given the variables involved at the time.

OK, I think we are a lot closer together on this one now! But I'm sure we can find something else to argue about! [laughing]

Peace

 

[Pike 96]

OK, I think we are a lot closer together on this one now! But I'm sure we can find something else to argue about! [laughing]

Peace

Oh I'm sure we can : )