Debbie Downer

[loyolacat]

Now that Loyola is destined for a bad season after a 23 win season last year (Lost their center to Bradley due to admissions issue) all my chips are invested in the Wildcats. And yes Pardon is maybe the most athletic center we have had and looks mature etc, but I am worried about the hole in the back of the boat. Can we really play McIntosh and Demps 37 minutes a game through the grind of the B10 season? Ash got zip time and it appears that Coach does not have much confidence in him. If I was correct Lindsey was playing guard when Demps sat? Sounds like a bad plan.
Will Ash get more time? or will we try and muscle through the B10 with 2 guards

 

[NJCat83588]

Now that Loyola is destined for a bad season after a 23 win season last year (Lost their center to Bradley due to admissions issue) all my chips are invested in the Wildcats. And yes Pardon is maybe the most athletic center we have had and looks mature etc, but I am worried about the hole in the back of the boat. Can we really play McIntosh and Demps 37 minutes a game through the grind of the B10 season? Ash got zip time and it appears that Coach does not have much confidence in him. If I was correct Lindsey was playing guard when Demps sat? Sounds like a bad plan.
Will Ash get more time? or will we try and muscle through the B10 with 2 guards

It was reported after the Loyola game that Ash had a staph infection and was limited in minutes. Don't know if that is true but could explain why he didn't get more than a token bit of PT at the end of the first half.

 

[hdhntr1]

Now that Loyola is destined for a bad season after a 23 win season last year (Lost their center to Bradley due to admissions issue) all my chips are invested in the Wildcats. And yes Pardon is maybe the most athletic center we have had and looks mature etc, but I am worried about the hole in the back of the boat. Can we really play McIntosh and Demps 37 minutes a game through the grind of the B10 season? Ash got zip time and it appears that Coach does not have much confidence in him. If I was correct Lindsey was playing guard when Demps sat? Sounds like a bad plan.
Will Ash get more time? or will we try and muscle through the B10 with 2 guards

Ash is coming off a staph infection. He will get more time going forward. I would guess about 5-10 minutes per game. Add Lindsey at about 10 minutes at the guard position (2 guard). That would have BMac with about 30 minutes and Demps about the same. Vassar's last minute decision to not come back but stay in school really hurts at this point.

 

[hdhntr1]

It was reported after the Loyola game that Ash had a staph infection and was limited in minutes. Don't know if that is true but could explain why he didn't get more than a token bit of PT at the end of the first half.

Heard it from his father.

 

[NJCat83588]

Heard it from his father.

Thanks.

 

[IdahoAlum]

Ash is coming off a staph infection. He will get more time going forward. I would guess about 5-10 minutes per game. Add Lindsey at about 10 minutes at the guard position (2 guard). That would have BMac with about 30 minutes and Demps about the same. Vassar's last minute decision to not come back but stay in school really hurts at this point.

I'm getting a little tired of the mantra that Vassar's decision to quit the team but not transfer is costing us depth at the point. I find it hard to believe that NU was going to find anybody better in the late signing period than what we've got right now. Especially since MacIntosh had such a successful freshman year and few players with talent and experience are going to sign up for five minutes a night of playing time. Isaiah (52-point) Brown arrives next year. In the mean time Collins will have to make due with what he has, and live with his decision to recruit Vassar in the first place. I too am concerned about Mac and Demps burning out, but this situation really isn't Vassar's fault.

 

[Walker Fan]

Lindsey is a 6'6" SG and Ash is a 6'3" combo guard which means he can play both guard positions. From the exhibition game that I saw Vic Law was going to see some minutes at SG in addition to SF. PG Brown is coming in next year and NU is recruiting more SGs for the following season. I am hoping those guards can create their own shot like T.Demps does. Demps is the backup PG this year with Ash as the third string PG.

 

[willycat]

I'm getting a little tired of the mantra that Vassar's decision to quit the team but not transfer is costing us depth at the point. I find it hard to believe that NU was going to find anybody better in the late signing period than what we've got right now. Especially since MacIntosh had such a successful freshman year and few players with talent and experience are going to sign up for five minutes a night of playing time. Isaiah (52-point) Brown arrives next year. In the mean time Collins will have to make due with what he has, and live with his decision to recruit Vassar in the first place. I too am concerned about Mac and Demps burning out, but this situation really isn't Vassar's fault.

I know that NU is doing the "right thing" in honoring Vassar's ride but still think that the young man is hurting his former teammates by not playing and taking up a scholarship that could have been used by someone else. Good luck to him in finding another school.

 

[harkesnu]

At the risk of stirring the pot, remind me why he decided not to continue playing. Is there a physical reason he isn't playing anymore, or personal decision? I think if you just decide not to play anymore because you don't feel like it, you don't get a scholarship that was offered to you based on you playing basketball anymore. You get to pay like everyone else.

I had a scholarship....it ended with me owing some years to the Navy. He has a scholarship, but it comes with him owing time to the basketball program each year he is there...unless as I mentioned before, he is hurt and can't play or feels like he is hurt too much to continue.

Please show me the error of my ways if I'm missing something here...

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

At the risk of stirring the pot, remind me why he decided not to continue playing. Is there a physical reason he isn't playing anymore, or personal decision? I think if you just decide not to play anymore because you don't feel like it, you don't get a scholarship that was offered to you based on you playing basketball anymore. You get to pay like everyone else.

I had a scholarship....it ended with me owing some years to the Navy. He has a scholarship, but it comes with him owing time to the basketball program each year he is there...unless as I mentioned before, he is hurt and can't play or feels like he is hurt too much to continue.

Please show me the error of my ways if I'm missing something here...

He couldn't find the a school he wanted to transfer to, so he stayed and asked Collins if he could rejoin the team. Collins, miffed because he missed all summer workouts, etc, said no thanks. NU choose to allow him to keep his scholie as long as he was stuck at NU...

 

[harkesnu]

So, he quit and then tried to un-quit when he couldn't find a better landing spot? Can't blame Coach for saying no thanks, and VERY classy of him to let the young man keep the schollie, but I can't see that schollie lasting beyond this year for Vassar.

Hope he finds a landing spot he likes, and hope he REALLY appreciates the free year of school he is getting...lots of kids would kill for a free year of school!

 

[YesterdaysCat]

So, he quit and then tried to un-quit when he couldn't find a better landing spot? Can't blame Coach for saying no thanks, and VERY classy of him to let the young man keep the schollie, but I can't see that schollie lasting beyond this year for Vassar.

Hope he finds a landing spot he likes, and hope he REALLY appreciates the free year of school he is getting...lots of kids would kill for a free year of school!

Don't think Collins had a choice about honoring it because Vassar is in school and eligible and available to play

 

[xxxbobxxx]

I'm getting a little tired of the mantra that Vassar's decision to quit the team but not transfer is costing us depth at the point. I find it hard to believe that NU was going to find anybody better in the late signing period than what we've got right now. Especially since MacIntosh had such a successful freshman year and few players with talent and experience are going to sign up for five minutes a night of playing time. Isaiah (52-point) Brown arrives next year. In the mean time Collins will have to make due with what he has, and live with his decision to recruit Vassar in the first place. I too am concerned about Mac and Demps burning out, but this situation really isn't Vassar's fault.

It was announced by CCC on Mar 30 and he had to know prior, even if he didn't encourage it. Verbal Commits shows over 100 PG transfers in D1 last year and a bunch are 5 year guys - including from schools like Penn and Drake. And there were countless uncommitted 2 star or better uncommitted recruits at that point. Please don't sell me the CCC great recruiter routine then turn around and say he could not find any useful backup PG going back to March.

It's ok if he made a mistake. He is human. And maybe there are factors in play yet to be revealed. But constantly anointing him as savior that can do no wrong is the same blind ******** proffered by the SEC and OSU boosters. You are better than that. Give the man props for his success, and there has been a lot, but hold him accountable for failures. The lack of a backup PG and waste of a schollie this year screams mistake and will continue to be one until something reveals otherwise.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

Lindsey is a 6'6" SG and Ash is a 6'3" combo guard which means he can play both guard positions. From the exhibition game that I saw Vic Law was going to see some minutes at SG in addition to SF. PG Brown is coming in next year and NU is recruiting more SGs for the following season. I am hoping those guards can create their own shot like T.Demps does. Demps is the backup PG this year with Ash as the third string PG.

Demps is the starting SG this year. Two spots on the two deep is too much.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

Don't think Collins had a choice about honoring it because Vassar is in school and eligible and available to play

Remember when the Bears lost a draft pick compensation because the GM forgot to check a box? I'm starting to think that happened here. When Vassar announced, someone in athletics should have started the process to revoke by summer break. Maybe they assumed the transfer and took no action. Vassar asks back and is declined. Since he is now willing to comply with the terms, opportunity for relief through admin hearing dissipates. Vassar keeps schollie.

If I'm correct, I think CCC should have brought him back. Run him hard, spot at the end of the bench, whatever to run him off again and secure the schollie. Alternatively, give the 19 year led a break and as the dominos fell, possible the backup PG role this year.

For me, two events will seal this ordeal short of a full explanation. First, if Mac gets hurt and we fall without a Plan B or, second, if Vassar remains on schollie into next year - these events will pretty much seal that this whole matter was a major CCC mistake. (If you don't agree, how about we forgo a 13th schollie for good as unnecessary and allocate that money for something else...)

 

[YesterdaysCat]

Remember when the Bears lost a draft pick compensation because the GM forgot to check a box? I'm starting to think that happened here. When Vassar announced, someone in athletics should have started the process to revoke by summer break. Maybe they assumed the transfer and took no action. Vassar asks back and is declined. Since he is now willing to comply with the terms, opportunity for relief through admin hearing dissipates. Vassar keeps schollie.

If I'm correct, I think CCC should have brought him back. Run him hard, spot at the end of the bench, whatever to run him off again and secure the schollie. Alternatively, give the 19 year led a break and as the dominos fell, possible the backup PG role this year.

For me, two events will seal this ordeal short of a full explanation. First, if Mac gets hurt and we fall without a Plan B or, second, if Vassar remains on schollie into next year - these events will pretty much seal that this whole matter was a major CCC mistake. (If you don't agree, how about we forgo a 13th schollie for good as unnecessary and allocate that money for something else...)

I agree with the concept but in practice it would be tough to have a teammate who wanted out and only came back because he didn't find something better. Imagine your wife saying she is dating other people and then she comes back a week later and says 'Let's get back together because nobody else would date me.' It can work sometimes in sports I suppose. Football's Darnell Autry wanted to transfer after his redshirt year but was talked out of it. But you never know if that player will have a good attitude upon his return and if his teammates will be affected by the situation.

 

[Mr. Stupor]

This whole thing where kids quit the team on their own but retain their scholarships is total BS. I'd love to be able to quit my job and still get paid full salary. And that's taxable! Free money. No taxes. No commitment to do anything. What a joke. And don't give me the nonsense of how it has to be this way or else coaches will constructively terminate kids and make them miserable so they're forced to quit. Existing legal concepts already address this.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

I agree with the concept but in practice it would be tough to have a teammate who wanted out and only came back because he didn't find something better. Imagine your wife saying she is dating other people and then she comes back a week later and says 'Let's get back together because nobody else would date me.' It can work sometimes in sports I suppose. Football's Darnell Autry wanted to transfer after his redshirt year but was talked out of it. But you never know if that player will have a good attitude upon his return and if his teammates will be affected by the situation.

I think Autry is a great example. Moreover, if he wants to transfer but couldn't draw interest from a satisfactory program, he has incentive to succeed. Not saying he would stay if he develops into a legit B1G player, but we would have gotten that one year bridge to Brown.

Alternatively, if he became a distraction, administratively there are remedies to pull the schollie, as I know first and second hand. As it sits, he may very well spend fours years at NU on bball schollie. I doubt that he is improving his stock with other programs by not playing nor is he planning to give up on a college degree. But who knows.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

This whole thing where kids quit the team on their own but retain their scholarships is total BS. I'd love to be able to quit my job and still get paid full salary. And that's taxable! Free money. No taxes. No commitment to do anything. What a joke. And don't give me the nonsense of how it has to be this way or else coaches will constructively terminate kids and make them miserable so they're forced to quit. Existing legal concepts already address this.

Can't be quit, at least not outright and currently. They do lose the scholarship absent specific and narrow exception.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

If I'm correct, I think CCC should have brought him back. Run him hard, spot at the end of the bench, whatever to run him off again and secure the schollie. Alternatively, give the 19 year led a break and as the dominos fell, possible the backup PG role this year.

So now you're okay with running kids off!? Didn't you have a problem with it earlier? Now you WANT Collins to do it?

How about accepting the fact that Vasser (on or off the team) would have had no impact on our success this season, negative or positive...

 

[Mr. Stupor]

Running kids off is BS. But the remedy for that is for the fans to reject the coach, not for the team to lose scholarships. If the kid quits because he's not getting enough PT, that's not a good enough reason - so he should lose his scholarship if he quits. Not playing was a foreseeable risk he took. Now if he is singled out and beaten or hazed or whatever, that's another story.

 

[Medill90]

Alternatively, give the 19 year led a break and as the dominos fell, possible the backup PG role this year.

He's not a major program point guard and is never going to be a major program point guard.

I doubt that anyone on this board knows what happened on the team last year. I agree that there are aspects of this that are difficult rationalize. So I guess we can take sides and then indict the other side. In one thread after another. Not adding much info along the way.

 

[IdahoAlum]

M

It was announced by CCC on Mar 30 and he had to know prior, even if he didn't encourage it. Verbal Commits shows over 100 PG transfers in D1 last year and a bunch are 5 year guys - including from schools like Penn and Drake. And there were countless uncommitted 2 star or better uncommitted recruits at that point. Please don't sell me the CCC great recruiter routine then turn around and say he could not find any useful backup PG going back to March.

It's ok if he made a mistake. He is human. And maybe there are factors in play yet to be revealed. But constantly anointing him as savior that can do no wrong is the same blind ******** proffered by the SEC and OSU boosters. You are better than that. Give the man props for his success, and there has been a lot, but hold him accountable for failures. The lack of a backup PG and waste of a schollie this year screams mistake and will continue to be one until something reveals otherwise.

My goodness, XYZ, you are full of yourself today. By all means let's condemn Chris Collins, Vassar, and hell let's throw Obama in there too, because Lord knows this couldn't have been an unfortunate confluence of events where everybody tried to act in good faith.

I'm sure there were players still available when Vassar decided to transfer. But how many of them did NU have a relationship with at that point, so they could successfully recruit them? How many were interested in playing 5 to 7 minutes a game? How many would be a better alternative than what we have now?
I don't think any of us will know exactly all the circumstances involved in this situation. And I suppose we could all just default to condemnation if that makes us feel better. As for me, I hope Collins can figure out a way to keep Mac and Demps fresh and healthy, and still win games. At this point that's all that matters.

 

[willycat]

M

My goodness, XYZ, you are full of yourself today. By all means let's condemn Chris Collins, Vassar, and hell let's throw Obama in there too, because Lord knows this couldn't have been an unfortunate confluence of events where everybody tried to act in good faith.

I'm sure there were players still available when Vassar decided to transfer. But how many of them did NU have a relationship with at that point, so they could successfully recruit them? How many were interested in playing 5 to 7 minutes a game? How many would be a better alternative than what we have now?
I don't think any of us will know exactly all the circumstances involved in this situation. And I suppose we could all just default to condemnation if that makes us feel better. As for me, I hope Collins can figure out a way to keep Mac and Demps fresh and healthy, and still win games. At this point that's all that matters.

Wasn't NU pursuing a couple of 5th year transfer PG's but Vassar retaining his ride negated that opportunity.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

So now you're okay with running kids off!? Didn't you have a problem with it earlier? Now you WANT Collins to do it?

How about accepting the fact that Vasser (on or off the team) would have had no impact on our success this season, negative or positive...

If the hypothetical includes one with a kid with an attitude, then I have no problem creating an environment that encourages a departure and leaves the team with the schollie.

I cannot fathom such a scenario, but if Mac goes down you will see the negative of no backup PG as the season flushes.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

He's not a major program point guard and is never going to be a major program point guard.

I doubt that anyone on this board knows what happened on the team last year. I agree that there are aspects of this that are difficult rationalize. So I guess we can take sides and then indict the other side. In one thread after another. Not adding much info along the way.

He was not a major program PG as a true freshman last year. Never going to be...if someone said that about a current player, you would be beside yourself for such an insulting indictment... He is better than Hall. He is better than nobody - the current scenario. Or his schollie could have been used to find someone.

Keep in mind that game time is only part of it. Practice value is considerable too.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

M

My goodness, XYZ, you are full of yourself today. By all means let's condemn Chris Collins, Vassar, and hell let's throw Obama in there too, because Lord knows this couldn't have been an unfortunate confluence of events where everybody tried to act in good faith.

I'm sure there were players still available when Vassar decided to transfer. But how many of them did NU have a relationship with at that point, so they could successfully recruit them? How many were interested in playing 5 to 7 minutes a game? How many would be a better alternative than what we have now?
I don't think any of us will know exactly all the circumstances involved in this situation. And I suppose we could all just default to condemnation if that makes us feel better. As for me, I hope Collins can figure out a way to keep Mac and Demps fresh and healthy, and still win games. At this point that's all that matters.

Full of myself? How? I'm simply stating facts with my impressions added. But do believe CCC is a great recruiter? Do you believe NU grad school has attractive value? Have we not already brought in 5th year guys with no guarantees and minimal available minutes? Won't JvZ face a similar minute crunch in light of Pardon? Considering the extensive number of uncommitted transfer PGs and recruits, CCC couldn't find anyone? How long did CCC have to build his first, very impressive class? Wouldn't you expect CCC to have cultured relationships with PG potentials based on need or simply diligence anyway?

Lots of questions, very unusual circumstances, total silence from the parties involved and I have a big head? So it is wrong to publicly question the situation? Should we limit to conversation to blowing kisses up his arse? Does discussion equate to condemnation? Can we not discuss, seek answers, information? I agree the absence of information reflects poorly on NU and CCC's handling of this scenario.

CCC has been great for NU, but he is not flawless. Sorry if this is a revelation.

 

[Medill90]

He was not a major program PG as a true freshman last year. Never going to be...if someone said that about a current player, you would be beside yourself for such an insulting indictment... He is better than Hall. He is better than nobody - the current scenario. Or his schollie could have been used to find someone.

Keep in mind that game time is only part of it. Practice value is considerable too.

Well, I disagree (big surprise). PG at this level is incredibly difficult. If Vasser (who I have defended often in discussions like this) had a bit more height and a reliable shot he'd be a 2.

Vasser is a good defender, with perhaps the ability to be better than good.

You can get away with that more narrow resume at other positions (Sanjay at the 4), but not at the point where you have to run the offense and distribute. And you can't learn how to do that in a year or two in college. You walk through the door with that ability or it's over.

Blame Collins for offering him the scholly. But to place blame for not letting him back onto the team after he asked out....that's a bit of stretch.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

Well, I disagree (big surprise). PG at this level is incredibly difficult. If Vasser (who I have defended often in discussions like this) had a bit more height and a reliable shot he'd be a 2.

Vasser is a good defender, with perhaps the ability to be better than good.

You can get away with that more narrow resume at other positions (Sanjay at the 4), but not at the point where you have to run the offense and distribute. And you can't learn how to do that in a year or two in college. You walk through the door with that ability or it's over.

Blame Collins for offering him the scholly. But to place blame for not letting him back onto the team after he asked out....that's a bit of stretch.

I can respect your opinion re Vassar. But add a third blame - allowing a scenario where Vassar walks the campus on schollie without playing. I still cannot fathom a reasonable explanation that doesn't involve incompetency, questionable ethics or stubbornness. One of those three has to be on play.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

I cannot fathom such a scenario, but if Mac goes down you will see the negative of no backup PG as the season flushes.

If BMac goes down, having Vasser on the team won't save us. Not sure how you could argue otherwise...

 

[xxxbobxxx]

If BMac goes down, having Vasser on the team won't save us. Not sure how you could argue otherwise...

Well, how does it happen? Fatigue a factor? Or maybe not injury, but fatigue wall like last year. Or maybe running demps as the starting SG and backup PG leads to fatigue injury or wall.

But hey, maybe we should surrender the 13th schollie permentantly as depth is overrated. When was thee last time depth led to anything good. Pick 5 guys and run, right?

By the way, maybe its Vassar, maybe its some other person on vassar's schollie, but neither of us can predict a savior. How were you feeling at the start of the loyola game after the olah announcement? Let me guess, you predicted Pardon and never worried about the olah injury. ..

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

By the way, maybe its Vassar, maybe its some other person on vassar's schollie, but neither of us can predict a savior.

I can predict that it's NOT Vassar and feel pretty confident in my prediction. lol

 

[backdoorpass]

M

My goodness, XYZ, you are full of yourself today. By all means let's condemn Chris Collins, Vassar, and hell let's throw Obama in there too...

LOL. NU doesn't have adequate depth at the PG position... Thanks Obama!

 

[xxxbobxxx]

I can predict that it's NOT Vassar and feel pretty confident in my prediction. lol

True, can predict it won't be, cannot say for sure it wouldn't have been.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

I can predict that it's NOT Vassar and feel pretty confident in my prediction. lol

We've all forgotten what a keen eye for talent that you have (eyes in butt). Over the years, you have correctly bashed many players (always wrong).

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

We've all forgotten what a keen eye for talent that you have (eyes in butt). Over the years, you have correctly bashed many players (always wrong).

Who exactly? I remember being critical of Cobb for not boxing out in the Maryland game last year, which I regret (it was knee jerk). Otherwise, no, I haven't bashed players. That said, I'll be the first to admit I was (sometimes regrettably) critical of Carmody.

Since your so interested in the past, what was your old handle, YesterdaysCat?