Derby Time

Jan 14, 2003
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After looking at the advance PPs I think I'll be taking a stand against McCraken and Always Dreaming. I disagree that McCraken will be undervalued and counter that I think he will be the most overbet horse in the race. I get the success at Churchill but I'm not sure who he beat and the times were nothing to write home about. Tampa Bay Downs is just a different type of track (more Belmont) and I know he didn't care about the Bluegrass but he still showed absolutely nothing in the stretch. I agree with Phoenix that Always Dreaming is likely to pull a Palace Malice and run off and fade in the stretch. 2 longshots I am starting to like more and more are State of Honor and Lookin at Lee. State of Honor really improve a lot after running on that almost turf surface at Woodbine. Watch Lookin at Lee in the Arkansas Derby and I think you will be impressed by the stretch run. Got stopped and had to change paths a couple times and was still coming at the end.

I think McCraken will be about 8-1 and the 3rd or 4th choice. And I'm absolutely good with that. Think that Classic Empire will end up the fave at about 5-1. Always Dreaming and Irish War Cry the next two, with McCraken right there or just behind them. Unless he's 2nd choice I don't think he'll be worse than 8-1. Interesting stat ... there have been 5 Derbies where the favorite was at least 5-1. Orb is the only one of those that finished better than 6th.

As for him liking Churchill I don't even need to see the 3/3 there or who he beat. Just can watch him working over it and can tell he loves that surface. Which could mean he does go off lower than I think he will ... because when a horse works that well they do tend to get bet. But I don't really see anyone getting hammered too hard because it's so open and there are so many different opinions.

Gunnevera was actually my #1 until I saw how well McCraken was going. It reminds me of the lead up to when Animal Kingdom and Orb both won (had both as my top picks in those Derbies). Seen this movie before. And I moved Gunny down a bit when some pace defected, as I think he'll be a bit pace dependent.

I also actually think the Bluegrass was better than it first appeared. McCracken actually ran the same Thorograph fig in the Bluegrass as he did in the Sam Davis, so I don't really think that race was as bad for all of them as some think it was. Last time he paired figs like that he moved forward. And again, knowing Wilkes, I don't think that he was even close to 100%.

Also, even if you don't think he ran a lick there, let's face it, pretty much all of these horses have a head scratching flop in their running lines somewhere. Think his is way more excusable than most others.

I could see Looking at Lee in the super simply because he fits the profile of the type of longshot that hits the super, with his strong late pace figs. But I prefer a Sonneteer, who also fits that same profile but seems to be improving more rapidly, to him.

But I also haven't really and truly "handicapped" it yet. I do follow it closely as the trail unfolds, so I'm familiar, but I haven't looked at the PPs. And moreso than PPs most of my handicapping is done by watching video and visually seeing it, and I haven't done that yet either. So, it's certainly not set in stone. Won't get fully down to business until I see the post draw.
 
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65pacecar

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McCracken decided to put his name in the draft and hired a trainer, not eligible for the Derby. Cal pushed him out of the Stall to make room for the next Thoroughbred.
 
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assistbyhawkins

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I always like to look at the Final Fraction Theory, which 24 of the last 27 Derby winners have run their final fractions in their last prep race in less than 13 and 38. Meaning they ran their last 1/8th of a mile in less than 13 seconds, or exactly 13 seconds, and their last 3/8ths in exactly 38 or less. 24 of 27 winners is a pretty legit pattern.

Here are this years qualifiers:

https://docs.google.com/viewerng/vi...rary/418e9afc-3d6e-4f39-916a-0b5cf04ac2e6.pdf
 

LineSkiCat14

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It's a small world when you've got unbelieveable tits Roy.

..Throwing $50 on Big Ern to win.. Dont care if it's 2:1 or a 1000:1. It's destiny.
 

cawoodsct

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Jan 14, 2003
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Apparently, McCraken and IWC looked great again today. Not surprising. They've consistently looked the best of any leading up imo.

But, also on twitter Thunder Snow and Irap drew some raves. Both will be in the back end up some supers for me. I do have some concern about Thunder Snow drawing post 2. That's not good.

I think Always Dreaming will be a complete stand against for me. When those draw reins come off I don't think he'll be controllable, so he's gonna fire from the jump. Plus, in post 5 he's gonna be standing in the gate a while which could add to that. And Fast and Accurate's connex have said they're sending him, so since he's inside AD I think those two could heat it up.

Also, it was confirmed today that Epicharis will head to the Belmont. Like it.
 
Jan 14, 2003
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This was from yesterday, but man I thought Irish War Cry looked just amazing here. Really muscled up and fleshed out, and just looks ready to go. Motion does a wonderful job with his horses.

 

Glenn's Take

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I know I am going to blow my reputation as someone that knows something about horse racing but I need help. Irish War Cry is New Jersey bred. Curlin is his sire. Curlin stands at Hill and Dale in Lexington. By definition that means they had to send Curlin to New Jersey to breed. I didn't think he had been in New Jersey since losing the Haskell. How does that happen? I've never heard of a farm shipping a horse to breed. At least not within the United States. I do know that American Pharoah is going to Australia for the Southern Hemisphere breeding season.
 

MWes11

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Spoilered for length of post. Horse guy on TMB with good track record.

1. Lookin at Lee, 20-1: The distance increase will help him, and he should be running at the end, but there are other closers I prefer over him. I could maybe use him in 3rd or 4th, but that’s about as far as I’d go.

2. Thunder Snow, 20-1: Not the ideal post draw, but I still like him quite a bit. I thought the UAE Derby was a strong race, and an argument could be made it was the strongest final prep. He’s still a bit immature, but in his two dirt races, he’s shown both brilliance (UAE 2000 Guineas) and grit (UAE Derby). I picked him third, but he’ll be a major part of my play.

3. Fast and Accurate, 50-1: My leading candidate to finish last. He’s too slow, and he’s a turf/synthetic horse at that. Will be a pace presence, though.

4. Untrapped, 30-1: He’s been fading down the stretch his past couple of races, and the increasing distance will only hurt him. Not using.

5. Always Dreaming, 5-1: He’s a tough call. I get the feeling that he’s going to be a horse that finishes either in the top two or finishes 15th or worse. If a horse wins by 5+ lengths, he’s probably the one, but that would rely upon him transferring his Gulfstream form over to another track, which is no guarantee with a Pletcher horse. He’s had easy trips in all of his races this year, and while his last actual work was strong, he’s been acting up and on edge in all of his morning gallops this week, which is not something you want to see, because if he can’t relax then, how is he going to relax on Derby day? I’ll use him defensively, but I’m really hoping to beat him.

6. State of Honor, 30-1: He’s another horse that should be forwardly paced, but that I have major distance concerns about. Not using.

7. Girvin, 15-1: He was already a horse I was sort of leaning against anyways, but seeing him miss a work and having foot issues within two weeks of the race makes is easier to be against him. Not using.

8. Hence, 15-1: Pace advantage or not, he won the Sunland Derby going away, and that race has came back extremely live. He’s turned into the wise guy horse because of that, so if you liked Hence, you probably won’t get the price you were hoping for. He’s not in my top four, but if I were to expand to five, he’d be right there. I’ll use him in my exotics.

9. Irap, 20-1: He had everything his own way in the Blue Grass, from being forwardly placed on a soft pace on a speed favoring track to having at least one horse behind him not fully cranked to actually win the race. He’ll have to prove it to me again. Not using.

10. Gunnevera, 15-1: Here’s my top pick and my key horse. He had a nice setup in the Fountain of Youth, but he won authoritatively, and in his other two starts of the year, he was up against it from a pace and trip perspective and still ran well. He has the fastest closing 3/8ths of a mile in the race, which has proven to be a good indicator of a horse that will thrive with the increase in distance. And he’s been running all year at Gulfstream, a track that usually doesn’t play to closing horses. Churchill should suit him better. On top of that, he has the top jockey in the nation riding him in Castellano, and one of the few races he’s yet to win is the Derby. Got to think he’ll win one at some point, and he has the horse this time to do so.

11. Battle of Midway, 30-1: He did well to hang around after being on the pace in the Santa Anita Derby, but he was staggering down the stretch. I’m against all the Santa Anita horses. Not using.

12. Sonneteer, 50-1: He’s still a maiden, and I don’t see how he breaks his maiden in this race of all races. That said, if you are looking for an absolute bomb in the bottom of your exotics, he’s worth a look. To be honest, I view him and Lookin at Lee very similarly, but for the Derby, I prefer Sonneteer over him slightly because a) he’ll be twice the price and b) he has a more experienced jockey aboard (Desormeaux) when it comes to weaving through 15+ horses in the Derby. Probably wouldn’t go higher than 3rd or 4th though.

13. J Boys Echo, 20-1: I’m taking the view that his Gotham (where he had an ideal trip) is an outlier, and without that race, he just hasn’t shown he’s really good enough to be a contender here. Not using.

14. Classic Empire, 4-1: His Breeders Cup Juvenile remains the best race any horse in this field has run, but given the year he has had (no show in Holy Bull, refused to work one week, minor injuries), he’s hard to trust. The Arkansas Derby was a nice step forward, but now you’re asking him to run back on three weeks with really only that race as a foundation to build off of. And it wasn’t as if the Arkansas Derby was all that fast. I don’t want him as the favorite, or even as one of the favorites. I may use him defensively in exotics, but he’s a horse I will try to completely beat in the top spot.

15. McCracken, 5-1: He’s a major contender. He’s proven he loves Churchill, and he was very impressive his first start of this year. And he had plenty of excuses for his 3rd place finish in the Blue Grass- slow pace on a speed favoring track. More importantly, though, is that his connections (especially Ian Wilkes, his trainer) viewed the Blue Grass as a pure prep, and Wilkes is from the school of Carl Nafzger in terms of being able to get a horse primed for a particular race. I expect him to take a nice step forward in the Derby. I picked him second.

16. Tapwrit, 20-1: He’s been training extremely well this week, with a lot of people that take in the horses each morning mentioning he’s been the most impressive. With that said, slow pace or not, he never showed any sort of run in the Blue Grass, and it is hard to take him off of a total non-effort. Given how well he has looked, I haven’t completely ruled out using him underneath, but most likely I will be against him.

17. Irish War Cry, 6-1: I still don’t know what happened in the Fountain of Youth, but there are only 4 triple digit Beyers in the field, and he has two of them with his wins in the Holy Bull and the Wood. You take those two races as the representative Irish War Cry, and he’s one of the top contenders. He did get good trips in both of those wins, though, and he won’t have things quite as easy this time around. But I still want to use him. I picked him 4th.

18. Gormley, 15-1: One of three multiple Grade-1 stake winners in the field, but despite winning the Santa Anita Derby, he’s gradually been getting slower this year in terms of speed figures, and he only won the Santa Anita Derby because he had the best trip. As I mentioned, any horse from Santa Anita will have to beat me. Not using.

19. Practical Joke, 20-1: I respect his talent, but I remain adamant that he’ll ultimately be a miler, and that longer isn’t better. Him not being able to get by Irap in the Blue Grass is only more evidence of this. Post draw wasn’t good for him, either. He’s a potential 2018 Met Mile winner, but I don’t want him at a mile and a quarter. Not using.

20. Patch, 30-1: I think he has a nice future, but this might be too much, too soon for him. Still, with a better draw, I could have seen him maybe sneaking into the back of the exotics, but with the outside post, that’s just enough for me to pass on him. Not using.

Kentucky Derby selections:
1. Gunnevera (10) 15-1
2. McCracken (15) 5-1
3. Thunder Snow (2) 20-1
4. Irish War Cry (17) 6-1
 

LineSkiCat14

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Looking like it may be a little sloppy. Reading that IWC might be OK, but other horses have never raced a wet track. What does this change.

Also, can someone give me a breakdown of the type of bets they do? I usually do a single horse to win, and maybe a trifecta or two. But even those trifectas add up.. Seems I've just bet $50 (a lot for such an amateur) and have a bunch of boxed trifectas that are seemingly impossible to land. How do I maximize my betting?
 

Strokin_Bandit

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Before I list my picks, I'll mention once again that I do very little exotic wagering as I annually participate in a pretty lucrative Calcutta auction that puts every horse in the field up for bid. Highest bidder gets the horse. They payout percentages for win/place/show. The total pool from the entire auction usually hits around 8-10 thousand depending on who's there. This year, with about 5-6 legit shots to win, the pool could be close to 10k. Winner gets 55%, unless it's changed. I go in with a conglomerate because I'm a poor (and I don't people here thinking I'm a degenerate - I'm not).

With that said, I'll break the field down into who I think are the livest shots to win, and who I'm taking a stand against. We can't buy all the favorites!

Who I like best:
- I've come around on Always Dreaming. Those Florida Derby times are FAAASSSST. I know there is some speculation about the legitimacy of those times, but still. They are a clear 2 seconds better than any other key prep at 1 1/8 mile. Even if those times are off and Gulfstream is speed favoring, you can't imagine these times are more than 1 second off. That's still 6-10 lengths clear of any other horse in its last key prep race. That has my attention. So does his crazy *** antics, and I'll worry about him going nuts until they turn for home. I will be a nervous wreck if I spend a ton to "buy" him, and I'll be nervous when I key him on top of the few exotics I make. But hell . . . "that racing" as bucky used to say. There is a chance this crazy sonofabitch is a freak and I want IN.

- With all of ^that^ said, I will include Gunnevera in the conversation as well. He closed into that fast, speed favoring race from a no-chance-in-hell post position. Check his times and he's right there with those closing fractions. Check the spoiler up in MWes11's post above and that's the exact same reason I like this horse here.

- Irish War Cry. Too many people "in the know" that I listen to are very high on this horse and the impressions he's made at Churchill since he arrived. He's sitting on a big race and should be right there when they turn for home. He's a little too far outside, and in all of his wins, he's had no real trouble so to speak. I'm not sure how much I'm willing to invest in him, but I think he's a very live shot to win.

Next tier:
- Hence is the wise guy horse this week with people "in the know" saying he looks as good as any other colt up there. His Sunland Derby was sneaky good and he WAS flying under the radar. I think he'll relish the distance and is willing to compete. I think people are getting keen to him and his odds will become lower and lower the closer they get to post time. He will be on one exotic ticket of mine.
- Irap is getting good at the right time. This colt is huge and sort of reminds me of Dortmund. It's tough for big colts to fire out of the gate and wire the field, but that's what this guy did in the Bluegrass. I don't think it was all that fast of a race, but there is something to be said at coming into your own at the right time like this one is.
- Tapwrit - If the price is right, I'd like to own the rights to this horse in the Calcutta. He's a closer that will love the added distance and have a great shot to hit the board or even steal the race. I'm inconsistent with the way I view the Bluegrass, but I don't care! At some point you have to go with your gut and that's what I'm doing here.

Who can ruin me but I'm trying to beat:
- McCraken scares the crap out of me, but I'm going to try to beat him. People can say what they want to about his effort in the Bluegrass. The bottom line is, he was almost a head nod away of being on the outside looking in. That horse didn't run a lick in that one and I'm not so sure it was a glorified workout as his backers suggest. He's missed some time this spring and you have to be close to a superhorse to overcome that. He's very good, but I'm not sure he's that good. Very much can win and if he does, oh well . . . "that racing."
- Classic Empire is beginning to look like a colt that peaked at 2. I'm not sure he's moved forward much since then and he has very little foundation this spring. I'm just not sure I'm willing to invest a ton of money on a horse that's only raced once since November. He won it, but he passed staggering competitors down the stretch. Once again, you have to take a stand against some of them. Capable of winning, but the conditions don't feel right.

I'll probably box an exacta ($1) of: 5, 10, 17, and 16.
If I have enough change rolled up at home, I'll box a tri ($1) with that same group and add the 8 and 9.

I will not do a super. I'll be close to broke after all of that action!
 

mash_24

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I always try to weed out the horses in the derby who can't get the distance. At this stage of their lives a pretty small # that can

1. Irish War Cry - if tracks off may have to rethink it.
2. Gunnevera
3. Hence
Live long shots - Sonneteer & J Boys Echo
 

RacerX.ksr

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I hit the tri in race 10, and then blew a lot of it on the Oaks. Came out ahead on the two races I bet, will do better tomorrow because I will listen to the woman who told me emphatically "4 will not win the Oaks, 7 will not win the Oaks"

Hep me Glennn. Hep me!
 

USSLair

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I feel like the field is absolutely wide open this year. That said I'll play around with:

Irish war cry
Gunnevera
Classic empire
McCracken
Always dreaming

Long shot - Thunder snow

I'll make some stupid ex, tri and several boxes.

Huge fan of Leparoux. I'll been betting and following his career since he use to ride at Turfway. Has won me a ton of money over the years. So hopefully his odds keep dropping and he wins because I'll bet him across the board just because.
 

65pacecar

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I know I am going to blow my reputation as someone that knows something about horse racing but I need help. Irish War Cry is New Jersey bred. Curlin is his sire. Curlin stands at Hill and Dale in Lexington. By definition that means they had to send Curlin to New Jersey to breed. I didn't think he had been in New Jersey since losing the Haskell. How does that happen? I've never heard of a farm shipping a horse to breed. At least not within the United States. I do know that American Pharoah is going to Australia for the Southern Hemisphere breeding season.
.

Very interesting. Thanks for the information. I have always pulled for a Ky bred horse to win the Derby and due to a friendly rivalry with a guy in Ocala, against the Fla bred horses.
 

Glenn's Take

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May 20, 2012
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A few of my last thoughts. Not since Smarty Jones has the weather dictated more in my thoughts on the race. The problem for me is that I want to put more money in the Pick 4 leading into the Derby which means I need to make decisions a few hours before the Derby. I will play multiple ones with different singles but as for the Derby I am stuck between Classic Empire and Irish War Cry. If the track is fast I like CE as the most likely winner. If it's sloppy I like IWC.
Random thoughts on the horses and the odds I would consider on the inside out
1 Lookin at Lee-50/1 liked his AR Derby but not enough to overcome the 1 post. Closer but he'll be given a lot of closing to do from the post. Maybe in the tris or supers but can't see him winning.
2 Thunder Snow-75/1 When the overseas horses come over for the turf races in the Breeders Cup I bet them because their best horses run on turf. Their dirt racing is mostly garbage.
3 Fast and Accurate-infinity/1 If this horse wins I will believe in infinite parallel universes.
4 Untrapped-75/1 I can't imagine anyone by Trappe Shot going 1 1/4. Pure sprinter.
5 Always Dreaming 10/1 Is he the most talented? Probably. That being said I don't like the behavior this week, I don't like the lack of any real 2 year old season and I've seen this before. Dunkirk and Verrazano come to mind. I'm not saying he can't win but I think the odds you will get on him will not be worth what I think he's worth. We'll get back to that with McCraken.
6 State of Honor-15/1 May get every bit of it to. One that I value more than others. To Honor and Serve wanted the 1 1/4 so I don't think that a problem. Much improved once he switched from poly to dirt. I may put straight win money on him.
7 Girvin-50/1 Another others may like that I don't. Didn't like him before the foot problem and I really don't like him now.
8 Hence-30/1 Others may like him.I'll get beat by him. Broke his maiden on slop so I kind of get that but I just don't believe anything out of the Sunland Derby. Consider in tris and supers.
9 Irap-40/1 Probably not even that. Got away with a crawling pace in the Bluegrass. It isn't going to happen again.
10 Gunnevera-15/1 I just don't like dead closers in the Derby. It almost never works out. Will be passing horses at the end but probably to little to late. Will definitely be on my spread Pick 4 tickets. Maybe exacta but leave on tris and supers at your own risk.
11 Battle of Midway-50/1 No 2 year old season. Just don't see it
12 Sooneteer-50/1 If I play a super I'll probably throw him in the 3 and 4 spots just because so many other people seem to like him. I don't really get it but a difference of opinion is what makes horse racing.
13 J Boys Echo-40/1 A nice Beyer on the inner track at Aqueduct will attract some people's money but not mine.
14 Classic Empire-4/1 The class of the field I think. If you could guarantee me a fast track he will be my single in my Pick 4 that will end on the Derby.
15 McCraken-12/1 I get it. I get it. I just think he'll be overbet. Will be on my spread tickets in the Pick 4
16 Tapwrit-30/1 Don't think much of his chances for winning but would use underneath in tris and supers.
17 Irish War Cry- 9/2 Since I have no idea what happened in the Fountain of Youth I am just going to pretend it didn't happen. Nothing else not to like especially if it is sloppy. I remember Curlin romping home in the BC Classic at Monmouth in the slop.
18 Gormley- 30/1 Will probably use underneath but I really don't think much of the entire California crop this year
19 Practical Joke 25/1 Will be on my spread Pick 4 ticket. Will be using in pretty much any exotics. Liked his move in the Bluegrass even with no pace to run at. Shows a good ability to rate.
20 Patch 50/1 No 2 year old season. See all negative thoughts about Always Dreaming and multiply them to this horse.
So there it is. Win bet will be on Classic Empire or Irish War Cry depending on weather. Exactas I would consider them, McCraken, Always Dreaming, State of Honor, Guneverra or Practical Joke. Obviously would box all of them. Throw Tapwrit, Hence and maybe Gormley in tris and supers.
 

Wrong

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John Velazquez'S ride was unreal. That move slightly away from the rail while in 2nd won the race.
 
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420grover

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I blindly picked 4 horses for a super because I was at one dollar left in my TwinSpires account. I hit the horses, just not the right order. I sure wish that I had put some more cash in to box that.
 

Strokin_Bandit

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Had the winner but not much else. No big payouts for me, but cashed a decent across the board bet that kept me from losing anything.

Our group was all in on buying the winner in the Calcutta auction, but some miscommunication with the spotters let him slip right through our hands. Very pissed but sorta my fault for not paying enough attention, I guess.
 

Strokin_Bandit

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Preakness thoughts::

Always Dreaming looking like a beast.

Cloud Computing / Conquest Mo good new shooters that deserve a look in exotics. Not sure I can pull the trigger though.

Gunnevera / Classic Empire in my exacta box with Dream.

Trying to beat the others. Scared of Looking at Lee but you have to draw a line somewhere.

I'm a simple, small timer and with little money to be made, I think a "safe" play will be:

$50 WIN on Dreaming

$5 exacta Box on Dream/Gunn/Empire.

That pretty much eats up the small hundo I won on Dreaming two weeks ago.

Good luck.
 

Glenn's Take

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Was getting ready to post on this but here is my thoughts. If my life depended on it I would take Always Dreaming. He is 3/2 right now. Gunnivera is 10/1. Always Dreaming isn't 6.3 times more likely to win this race. If I had to have a second horse to save my life it would be Classic Empire but again the odds matter.