Developing Players...

[jamsession3]

A few high school coaches were discussing the lack of player development in 2019, and they mentioned many high profile college coaches don't have the autonomy to no longer 'develop'. The emphasis is staying in the top 10 and getting 5 and 4 star athletes to maintain the 'status quo'.

Is this a fair assessment? Were there certain Duke players we might've felt could've developed into better players? Is the responsibility of development at the college level on the player?

 

[DukeDenver]

Assuming most highly paid coaches know what they are doing, the development of a player depends on two things: the player’s work ethic and the quality of the players around him.

 

[Mac9192]

It first falls on the player. It's also hard to turn the talent away. We put so much "hope" into our one and done's at Duke. The problem I have is when a one and done, like Cam Reddish, isn't nowhere as efficient as his fellow one and dones, yet he still plays 35+ minutes.
Unless our bench guys really improve, each season we need our freshmen coming in to really light it up.

Honestly, that's asking a lot in a very short time.

 

[Liftee]

I think there are different ways to define "develop". Does it mean taking a 1 or 2 start athlete and refining his skills over 3-4 years? Well, that's tough to do when every 4 or 5 star is looking to go one and done and coaches like Coach K and Cal are expected to compete for a title every year.

But if it means getting players to develop whether they stay 1 or 4 years, then it can mean tweaking their shooting form, or working on their footwork to avoid fouling or getting blocked out on rebounds. I expect the best coaches to do that or they are doing a disservice to their players and I'm sure that would get back to high school recruits.

Sometimes I'm a little critical of Coach K when I see a player with shooting flaws and there doesn't seem to be any change over a season. Of course, I don't have any way of knowing the work that's going on behind the scenes and how receptive a player is to instruction and change.

 

[AlanInNJ]

In principal I think it would be great to develop players in live game situations, but at whose expense? Last season, of Zion, RJ, Cam and Tre who would you have pulled to get a less talented player developmental minutes in ACC or tourney play? In this era it's gonna happen year after year, especially so if we continue to haul in 3 or 4 top 20 recruits, some of whom who were top 3.

Guys like Jav and Bolden developed more in years when they were needed, less in years they were not because they stuck around for 3+ years and waited for (bet on) the gap years.

 

[skysdad]

Assuming most highly paid coaches know what they are doing, the development of a player depends on two things: the player’s work ethic and the quality of the players around him.

Great answer. Most highly paid coaches don't top players to bury them on the bench. They are expected to contribute. If the player has the talent, desire and with ethic to get better and reach his potential he will play and that includes Duke. It is a fact that some programs have more than their share of 5 star or McDonald's All Americans but they know when they committed they would have to beat out the competition. The more talent a program has the more likely for possible transfers. Top programs just can't recruit 2 or 3 top talents. Injuries and early NBA entrants would break the program. OFC

 

[jamsession3]

It first falls on the player. It's also hard to turn the talent away. We put so much "hope" into our one and done's at Duke. The problem I have is when a one and done, like Cam Reddish, isn't nowhere as efficient as his fellow one and dones, yet he still plays 35+ minutes.
Unless our bench guys really improve, each season we need our freshmen coming in to really light it up.

I don't think it's asking a lot. I do believe the coaching staff and player have the responsibility to make progress.
Honestly, that's asking a lot in a very short time.

 

[nets on nets on nets]

Without getting into a OAD discussion and why players actually get better faster as pro's as compared to having to go to class and competing against overmatched guys.....
The Duke players that I feel could/should have developed more during their time would be
-Paulus: came in as a big-time recruit, never saw any improvement, maybe other than as a SR coming off the bench his 3 pt stroke got a lot better.
-Sulaimon: started as a freshman and was an important piece to our Elite 8 team, never got better after that.
-Grayson: Was a monster as a Soph, was a preseason National POY as a JR and SR, never came close. This has been beaten to death, but it's almost like he forgot how to make open shots.

K's resume' of getting guys to reach their peak talent and even go beyond that is much more impressive, IMO K got all these guys to the mountain top...
JJ Redick
Shelden Williams
Jon Scheyer
Mason Plumlee
Marshall Plumlee
Amile Jefferson
Brian Zoubek (better late than never)
Luke Kennard (yes in 2 years)
Demarcus Nelson
Trajan Langdon
Casey Sanders
Lee Melchionni

 

[jamsession3]

JJ, Trajan, Jon and Mason were already put together even though they stayed 4 years.

 

[nets on nets on nets]

JJ, Trajan, Jon and Mason were already put together even though they stayed 4 years.

They were all big-time recruits, if that's what you mean? I still believe K got them to reach their full 100% maximum potential, that they wouldn't have gotten to that level at other schools.

Just because someone is a monster recruit, they still need to be coached up.

 

[skysdad]

It first falls on the player. It's also hard to turn the talent away. We put so much "hope" into our one and done's at Duke. The problem I have is when a one and done, like Cam Reddish, isn't nowhere as efficient as his fellow one and dones, yet he still plays 35+ minutes.
Unless our bench guys really improve, each season we need our freshmen coming in to really light it up.

Honestly, that's asking a lot in a very short time.

Ok this is just my take. I think that both Alex and Jack were given opportunities this past year. Alex just couldn't play the defense necessary. That's on him. You can't keep him on thr court when his guy is blowing past him unless he's scoring at a pace to offset it. He had some good moments. Jack had his opportunities but he went into that shooting slump. Goldwire on the other hand got more pt than I thought he would because he busted his rear end playing some d. Bolden was a different story. I just don't think he ever could get consistant from his freshman year because he was hurt so much. If Alex came into a game and hit say 3 big 3's , made a couple of steels and shut down his man say for 6 or 7 minutes Coach K would not play him. I feel both Jack and Alex are going to be productive this year.Big time players come to Duke to play basketbalk but so does all the other big time players that come to Duke. They know what they need to do. OFC

 

[jamsession3]

They were all big-time recruits, if that's what you mean? I still believe K got them to reach their full 100% maximum potential, that they wouldn't have gotten to that level at other schools.

Just because someone is a monster recruit, they still need to be coached up.

I agree with being coached up. However, on many teams those players might've been the first option. One of the things I've learned to appreciate from K is how his player adjust their games on behalf of the team. Not that other teams don't demand the same, it's just obvious once they graduate or when you look at HS clips, many of our Duke players adjust for the team.

 

[hart2chesson]

It first falls on the player. It's also hard to turn the talent away. We put so much "hope" into our one and done's at Duke. The problem I have is when a one and done, like Cam Reddish, isn't nowhere as efficient as his fellow one and dones, yet he still plays 35+ minutes.
Unless our bench guys really improve, each season we need our freshmen coming in to really light it up.

Honestly, that's asking a lot in a very short time.

Its true about Reddish. He just never reached the advertised potential. Don't get me wrong, he had some great moments, but he wasnt the 3 pt missile machine (or close to it) we expected.

I think we offset this early on, particularly w/Jack's solid play and steady shooting. O'Connell had some good offensive moments (both Syracuse games), but defense was a liability....

As far as developing and work ethic, were Reddish and OC completely dialed in??? I am not sure. I think Jack never stopped playing hard, his shooting just inexplicably went south although he seemed to continue to play hard. OFC

 

[Devilinside]

Great answer. Most highly paid coaches don't top players to bury them on the bench. They are expected to contribute. If the player has the talent, desire and with ethic to get better and reach his potential he will play and that includes Duke. It is a fact that some programs have more than their share of 5 star or McDonald's All Americans but they know when they committed they would have to beat out the competition. The more talent a program has the more likely for possible transfers. Top programs just can't recruit 2 or 3 top talents. Injuries and early NBA entrants would break the program. OFC

Some 4 and 5 star players are overrated, but nonetheless have potential. It is then up to the college coach to "develop" the players by helping them realize their potential. Without a coach who is a good developer, those players may never be ready for the League.

 

[hart2chesson]

Some 4 and 5 star players are overrated, but nonetheless have potential. It is then up to the college coach to "develop" the players by helping them realize their potential. Without a coach who is a good developer, those players may never be ready for the League.

DI how well overall do you think we've developed our 5 star kids over the last 4 years? Just curious my friend-THX in advance....

OFC

 

[Showenuff]

Good points Hart, I have to admit I was a little disappointed with Cam down the stretch. Just a DECENT showing from the outside and we have a ship, signed sealed , delivered.

 

[hart2chesson]

Good points Hart, I have to admit I was a little disappointed with Cam down the stretch. Just a DECENT showing from the outside and we have a ship, signed sealed , delivered.

Show thks, appreciate it buddy....OFC

 

[Devilinside]

DI how well overall do you think we've developed our 5 star kids over the last 4 years? Just curious my friend-THX in advance....

OFC

 

[Devilinside]

Good question. of Duke's 5 stars, I was disappointed in Andre Dawkins, Trevon Duvall, Sulaiman, Chase Jeter, and a few others. They did not play up to the level of other 5 stars we have had, whether it was because of poor attitudes, parental interference, and/or over-estimated ability. Jeter comes to mind as one who did not measure up to the hype. Generally speaking, I think K and his staff gives Duke players every chance possible to meet their potential. Not so much at other schools.

OFC

 

[Liftee]

These are 18 year old children. They have been the best player on every team they have played on. By and large, Coach K has recruited high character players who did not embarrass the program (like down the road from us). As I always say to Duke haters, all that recruiting OAD's does for Duke is assures us that we will compete with the best each year, it doesn't guarantee championships.

Going back to the topic, it can't be easy getting a kid who has dominated at every level to suddenly change his shooting form or become a passer instead of a shooter.

 

[Laettshow]

Good question. of Duke's 5 stars, I was disappointed in Andre Dawkins, Trevon Duvall, Sulaiman, Chase Jeter, and a few others. They did not play up to the level of other 5 stars we have had, whether it was because of poor attitudes, parental interference, and/or over-estimated ability. Jeter comes to mind as one who did not measure up to the hype. Generally speaking, I think K and his staff gives Duke players every chance possible to meet their potential. Not so much at other schools.

OFC

Dawkins peaked early, but I feel when his sister passed he never did get back mentally.
One player I think we may see really shock us is Goldwire. His freshman year I thought K reached on recruiting him. Last year with glimpses of him I was really impressed how much he had developed from one year. Him and Baker are the two I am really looking forward to this year on what type of leap they have made.

 

[Showenuff]

You beat me to it Laett, Dawkins was rolling but he hit a hurdle not many of us could deal with easily.

 

[hart2chesson]

You beat me to it Laett, Dawkins was rolling but he hit a hurdle not many of us could deal with easily.

Very traumatic Show, you said it....OFC

 

[bullcity gamer]

Without getting into a OAD discussion and why players actually get better faster as pro's as compared to having to go to class and competing against overmatched guys.....
The Duke players that I feel could/should have developed more during their time would be
-Paulus: came in as a big-time recruit, never saw any improvement, maybe other than as a SR coming off the bench his 3 pt stroke got a lot better.
-Sulaimon: started as a freshman and was an important piece to our Elite 8 team, never got better after that.
-Grayson: Was a monster as a Soph, was a preseason National POY as a JR and SR, never came close. This has been beaten to death, but it's almost like he forgot how to make open shots.

K's resume' of getting guys to reach their peak talent and even go beyond that is much more impressive, IMO K got all these guys to the mountain top...
JJ Redick
Shelden Williams
Jon Scheyer
Mason Plumlee
Marshall Plumlee
Amile Jefferson
Brian Zoubek (better late than never)
Luke Kennard (yes in 2 years)
Demarcus Nelson
Trajan Langdon
Casey Sanders
Lee Melchionni

I would throw Gerald Henderson in there as far as developing and reaching his peak his Junior year at Duke and playing a few years in the NBA

 

[skysdad]

You beat me to it Laett, Dawkins was rolling but he hit a hurdle not many of us could deal with easily.

I really respected Andre' and what he had to go through. He still caught grief when he didn'the play well from some. My hope is that he is succesful in whatever he does in life. OFC

 

[sheyduke]

I think as posters and Fans sometimes we over look the weaknesses of players for their achievements and gives us high hopes for the individual players.

I was never high on Chase Jeter or Boldens ranking because both their weakness said they would need to adjust to the college game and playing against players their actual size.

One player that underachieved his ranking and never really developed even though he was given every chance was Duval. The coaches put him in position to show both his shooting improvement and his overall effectiveness to be a true pg but he never really developed into one.

 

[SwatX1]

I really respected Andre' and what he had to go through. He still caught grief when he didn'the play well from some. My hope is that he is succesful in whatever he does in life. OFC

I really pulled hard for him. I always called him baby face!
When he would hit a 3, I would jump out of the chair and BABY FACE!!

 

[Laettshow]

I think as posters and Fans sometimes we over look the weaknesses of players for their achievements and gives us high hopes for the individual players.

I was never high on Chase Jeter or Boldens ranking because both their weakness said they would need to adjust to the college game and playing against players their actual size.

One player that underachieved his ranking and never really developed even though he was given every chance was Duval. The coaches put him in position to show both his shooting improvement and his overall effectiveness to be a true pg but he never really developed into one.

I think we all are guilty sometimes for forgetting these are 17-19 year old kids. With all the coverage these kids get now, plus the fame of being big time recruits, I think we all sometimes look at them more as professional athletes.

 

[sheyduke]

Well put Laettshow

 

[SwatX1]

I think we all are guilty sometimes for forgetting these are 17-19 year old kids. With all the coverage these kids get now, plus the fame of being big time recruits, I think we all sometimes look at them more as professional athletes.

I was going to post pretty much this same thing. I have caught myself many times having to fall back and remember that these are kids and not 5 year NBA veterans. To put it in perspective for myself, I would imagine if it were my son out there when he was 18, what would I expect? How much poise and maturity would be fair to expect?
I always hate when they interview kids in the presser after a gut wrenching loss in the final four. You can see how upset they are and in my opinion, shouldn’t have to be there. I wonder if the coach has the option to tell the press they aren’t talking to the kids right now? Or if the kids have the option to decline?

 

[BluePhil]

Any implication that the top coaches do not develop players is pure idiocy. Yes, when you get a few guys that are already NBA ready it colors that perception but, even they develop.

And no, JJ, Mason, et al mentioned above were far from finished products when they came to Duke. JJ was a hell of a shooter but he was not NBA material when he started at Duke, he has developed even more in the NBA - great example of work ethic.

Even the one and dones got top notch coaching - and usually develop as more well-rounded players in their one year because they are not necessarily the only great player on the team anymore.

 

[christophero]

It's an interesting topic. There are guys who developed and guys who didn't. It was frustrating to see guys like Bolden and Jeter and Duval and Reddish not develop/slowly develop but that is the nature of the game. I think we should have developed guys like Semi and Gbinije but you can't have everything. It will be very interesting to see how White and Baker and Goldwire continue to develop.

 

[jamsession3]

I think as posters and Fans sometimes we over look the weaknesses of players for their achievements and gives us high hopes for the individual players.

I was never high on Chase Jeter or Boldens ranking because both their weakness said they would need to adjust to the college game and playing against players their actual size.

One player that underachieved his ranking and never really developed even though he was given every chance was Duval. The coaches put him in position to show both his shooting improvement and his overall effectiveness to be a true pg but he never really developed into one.

I think Sky spoke on it in an earlier post, the attitude and desire of the player plays a tremendous role in development.

Bolden and Duval had a very entitlement attitude going into Duke. If they were at schools where they would've been the first option their college careers would've looked different.

As for Chase, the redshirt year would've been essential for his growth, athletically and maturity.

 

[jamsession3]

Any implication that the top coaches do not develop players is pure idiocy. Yes, when you get a few guys that are already NBA ready it colors that perception but, even they develop.

And no, JJ, Mason, et al mentioned above were far from finished products when they came to Duke. JJ was a hell of a shooter but he was not NBA material when he started at Duke, he has developed even more in the NBA - great example of work ethic.

Even the one and dones got top notch coaching - and usually develop as more well-rounded players in their one year because they are not necessarily the only great player on the team anymore.

JJ and Mason, had the attitudes and talent to go far from day one. It help JJ and Mason was the upperclassmen to learn from.

 

[bullcity gamer]

Any implication that the top coaches do not develop players is pure idiocy. Yes, when you get a few guys that are already NBA ready it colors that perception but, even they develop.

And no, JJ, Mason, et al mentioned above were far from finished products when they came to Duke. JJ was a hell of a shooter but he was not NBA material when he started at Duke, he has developed even more in the NBA - great example of work ethic.

Even the one and dones got top notch coaching - and usually develop as more well-rounded players in their one year because they are not necessarily the only great player on the team anymore.

More examples of Duke’s recent one and dones to develop throughout their one year at Duke include Brandon Ingram, Justise Winslow, Tyus Jones, and Jayson Tatum. They were better players during conference/post season play than they were in November/December.

 

[BluePhil]

JJ and Mason, had the attitudes and talent to go far from day one. It help JJ and Mason was the upperclassmen to learn from.

It helped that they were coached by K and the Duke staff.