We were not told millions WOULD die, we were told that IF we did nothing THEN millions would die from the virus. We were also told that If we practiced social distancing, THEN we could mitigate the infection rate. Don't be making stuff to fit your narrative.
Did I sleep through H1N1 pandemic?
- Thread starter gamecockcat
- Start date
Oh dude! Perhaps you should go back and better study just who was responsible for opening up trade with China. Hint: they weren’t “my side”.
Congrats! You just graduated to kook status.
My criticisms aren't exclusive to one party, nor am I concerned by what you may deem as quackery.
You're wrong here just like you're wrong everywhere else.
The evidence, then and now, is insufficient to sustain your position.
I don't think anything would convince Bill otherwise. If the body count sky rocketed, he'd just say it was made up. He's already saying that actually. Doctors are inflating fatalities in order to get more money for hospitals. But, only certain hospitals not all of them apparently. Somehow doctors and nurses across the country are coordinating their efforts in order to do this. The logistics to make this happen must be a nightmare.
Apparently it was okay in the middle of the Cold War to open up trade with a communist country but now it's not okay to do trade with them anymore because communism.
-nixon "normalized" relations w/ Communist China. We traded some mainly cheap consumables and such.....then clinton blew it *wide the **** open*. Since then folks on both sides of the isle have gotten stinking rich selling us out. Fleeced.
If you're in support of a free market without government oversight, then this is a naturally occurring situation.
-nope. Gross oversimplification*.
*edit to edify the ignorant:
-put simply, China is an has had the benefit of being designated a "developing" economy by the WTO and such, they dont have the same rules/restrictions as "developed" countries.
^not a result of a free market system. The playing field is not level.
*edit to edify the ignorant:
-put simply, China is an has had the benefit of being designated a "developing" economy by the WTO and such, they dont have the same rules/restrictions as "developed" countries.
^not a result of a free market system. The playing field is not level.
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But you will both right on your selective ad hoc hindsight reasoning interpretation of the facts.
I am saying, right here and now, that the data shows it's time to get back to work for the majority of the country with sufficient preventative measures, and what we already did was sufficient/necessary and will be sufficient going forward, that we will only get better at handling this and there will be no "real" catastrophe except for the incompetent mishandling of everything going forward.
Meaning, simplified...
Austria/Denmark are going back to work irrespective of continuing need for restrictions in Italy/Spain the same way Omaha should irrespective of ongoing crisis in NYC.
I am saying, right here and now, that the data shows it's time to get back to work for the majority of the country with sufficient preventative measures, and what we already did was sufficient/necessary and will be sufficient going forward, that we will only get better at handling this and there will be no "real" catastrophe except for the incompetent mishandling of everything going forward.
Meaning, simplified...
Austria/Denmark are going back to work irrespective of continuing need for restrictions in Italy/Spain the same way Omaha should irrespective of ongoing crisis in NYC.
I concur with your well communicated rationale. Unfortunately, facts and reason mean nothing to people who dwell in an alternate world and live by illogical assumptions about the world around them. There is practically nothing you can say, do or show to convince them otherwise.
Jim Jones followers were just as sure that Jim Jones was a great leader and the government was out to get them too. The flat Earthers see pictures of the Earth from space but are undeterred. The lunar landing was a hoax to some despite all the proof that it truly happened. The Holocaust never happened even with all the death camp pictures and buildings that remain to this day.
Not sure what the psychology is behind this mindset, but I find it ironic they are almost always the same ones who will be quick to deny a scientifically proven fact but pay 40 bucks to walk thru an Ark with animatronic dinosaurs on it and argue that it is an undeniable truth.
What data shows it's time to go back to work? The White House has shown that the worst of this will be happening in the next week or two? Why would we go back to work, even with precautions, when nearly 2000 Americans (and growing) are dying from this everyday?
I agree with all of this but to Bill we are the Earthers. He and others, make up conspiracy theories by picking up bits of data here and there to fit their world view. But we're the crazy ones for not seeing all the evidence right in front of us.
True. But the difference is that we are getting our information from scientists, the CDC and doctors who have devoted their entire lives to this particular situation.....while they glean their "alternate facts" from the likes of Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump who know less than zero about any of this.
All of the data, but I should've typed nearly time to get back to work as that is what I meant.
What is happening in the hotspots shouldn't necessitate the same measures that are necessary there be taken everywhere. the data simply isn't there to support it especially when you start to calculate the cost in life due to economic realities and potential hardships.
I'm not making a conspiratorial or "flat earther" argument, I'm saying the data/evidence isn't there that we aren't doing more harm than good going forward, not what was already done wasn't necessary.
There are eminently qualified people who have taken the same look at the same data, have come to and still maintain the same conclusion. Science is not done by consensus nor does it side with one political party, the facts are simply the facts. Austria/Denmark are looking at the same realities essentially as we are, and they are doing based on the evidence what I believe is right and America (in general, not where there are breakouts and other factors) should go ahead and follow suit soon.
What is happening in the hotspots shouldn't necessitate the same measures that are necessary there be taken everywhere. the data simply isn't there to support it especially when you start to calculate the cost in life due to economic realities and potential hardships.
I'm not making a conspiratorial or "flat earther" argument, I'm saying the data/evidence isn't there that we aren't doing more harm than good going forward, not what was already done wasn't necessary.
There are eminently qualified people who have taken the same look at the same data, have come to and still maintain the same conclusion. Science is not done by consensus nor does it side with one political party, the facts are simply the facts. Austria/Denmark are looking at the same realities essentially as we are, and they are doing based on the evidence what I believe is right and America (in general, not where there are breakouts and other factors) should go ahead and follow suit soon.
I think deferring your judgement to people you deem smarter than you is no better really.
It's no better whatsoever than deferring your judgement to a political advocate.
Before Clinton, Reagan actually threw the door open.
1981-85 the growth of imports grew 16,1% (average annual growth).
86-90 +4.8%
91-95 +19.9%
96-00 +11.3%
01-05 +24%
06 +23.8%
07 +23.4%
08 +18.5%
Didn’t the right wing push the free trade, open door policy? Why yes they did.
And aren’t these private businesses that chose to show there, chose to set up factories there?
The CDC is the official count, and their numbers don’t match one in the media.
The fact you compare this to the Civil War and WW2 shows how ridiculous of an argument you’re posing.
The state also just made KY dam village ready, it’s insane. We are not NYC, there is more people in a 100 sq Mile radius there than there is in the entire state of KY.
Quarantine the vulnerable, and the rest of us go about our business.
Looks like trade really blew up once Bush II took office. Even when Clinton was president, I've been reminded many times, that there was a Republican majority Congress.
So we weren’t told millions would die? Which is why we shut everything down which is exactly what I stated. It caused people to panic.
The report from the imperial college is what scared the **** out of everyone.
We weren’t told millions WOULD die, Bill, we were told millions would die. Big difference. Surprised you missed it.
I wasn't specifically saying it was you who was making these conspiracy stories. Bill is so concerned about this and that with essentially made up stories he comes up with.
I want to open everything back up, but it's looking like the end of April at a minimum. Things are supposed to start hitting the rest of the country soon. The NY area was the first to really get it and the rest of the country is going to follow soon. There are over 300k officially active cases and still growing. I would think if we saw that the growth number itself were stabilizing or showed negative growth, then let's look at opening it up. As of right now, there's too much positive viral growth to really seriously consider it in the next few weeks.
If we open too soon, then we risk prolonging all of this and the economy would continue to tank anyways. Even if we all went back to work tomorrow, with precautions, there are too many that just wouldn't due to the fear of getting it.
What does opening the economy look like to you?
I didn't say you said that. Are you so defensive that you lost you're reading comprehension?
I got my info from the CDC website, news reports and the Covid task group. So come down off that high horse.
We were told that millions COULD die if we did nothing at all. That's what the Trump Administration shared with the public. That's what a lot of data science has shown. If we did nothing at all to slow the spread of COVID-19, then yes, millions could die.
In the (unlikely) absence of any control measures or spontaneous changes in individual behaviour, we would expect a peak in mortality (daily deaths) to occur after approximately 3 months (Figure 1A). In such scenarios, given an estimated R0 of 2.4, we predict 81% of the GB and US populations would be infected over the course of the epidemic. Epidemic timings are approximate given the limitations of surveillance data in both countries: The epidemic is predicted to be broader in the US than in GB and to peak slightly later. This is due to the larger geographic scale of the US, resulting in more distinct localised epidemics across states (Figure 1B) than seen across GB. The higher peak in mortality in GB 16 March 2020 Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team DOI: https://doi.org/10.25561/77482 Page 7 of 20 is due to the smaller size of the country and its older population compared with the US. In total, in an unmitigated epidemic, we would predict approximately 510,000 deaths in GB and 2.2 million in the US, not accounting for the potential negative effects of health systems being overwhelmed on mortality.
I assume this is what caused the "mass panic"? Mass death IF no control measures were implemented.
I'd say our governments have done what was suggested and we are seeing the results.
I assume this is what caused the "mass panic"? Mass death IF no control measures were implemented.
I'd say our governments have done what was suggested and we are seeing the results.
Im not defensive at all, whether you agree with me or not makes no difference.
How much do you think NYC will get from the federal govt for this? 100 -200 billion?
Let's say 100 Billion.
What do you think the city will use that money for? Line the Mayor's pockets and buy himself a boat?
Maybe.
It could also be used to deliver relief to the city that's been most affected so far. That's why some politicians wanted oversight on how the funds were being distributed and used.
Im not making any conspiracy stories chin, Dr Birx stated we are liberal with death counts where some countries with lower counts are conservative.
We are counting deaths as Covid related if they test positive or assumed positive, that is wide open for fraud, especially when billions of federal dollars are just waiting to be spent.
You seem to think I believe this whole thing is a hoax, I don’t. However, I’m not naive enough to not realize state and locals govts, will do everything they can to get federal money.
I don’t think this level of shutdown was necessary, isolate the vulnerable and social distance. This is getting to the point it’s absurd in KY.
It allows the city and state to be fiscally irresponsible and have the govt bail them
out without being taken to task for their poor leadership.
-as usual, you are misrepresenting(most are simply wrong) the numbers fuzz/rq.
-first your numbers for Clinton are way under what they actually are, shocking.
-second...look at the numbers as a percentage of gdp.
-third...and most important, pay attention to the trade *deficit*...you're not gonna like what you see.
-fourth...i noted that bush/obama carried on with the clinton model as relates to chinese trade. No argument there.
-finally. Pay brady the money you owe him(actually the money was headed to a charity iirc).
-first your numbers for Clinton are way under what they actually are, shocking.
-second...look at the numbers as a percentage of gdp.
-third...and most important, pay attention to the trade *deficit*...you're not gonna like what you see.
-fourth...i noted that bush/obama carried on with the clinton model as relates to chinese trade. No argument there.
-finally. Pay brady the money you owe him(actually the money was headed to a charity iirc).
I have yet to meet one person who is or has panicked. Where are these people?
Bill, I’m looking at the CDC site right now.
In bold print...”This page will be updated daily. Numbers close out at 4pm the day before reporting”
So, they are telling you that their data is always a day behind.
it says:
Total cases: 427,460
Total deaths: 14,696
If I look at WorldoMeter that updates continually as data is available it says that yesterday...per it’s disclaimer “The day is reset after midnight GMT+0”
GMT+0 is 8pm EDT.
Cases: 434,927
Deaths: 14,788
So the WorldoMeter counts are slightly bigger and that is explained because the data is pulled 4 hours later.
John Hopkins is the other widely used site. There page currently says “This page was last updated Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 08:08 PM EDT.
Adjusting for the time of the data, all the sites are reporting the same data and same counts.
I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if some has already posted similar thoughts.
As to funeral homes, I can't speak for NY, or any other state/city, but where I work, (at a central Ky hospital), our morgue was one space from being 100 capacity last week. (Not all Covid of course, if any) I asked the person in charge what would happen if it became 100 occupied, would we ask other hospitals to assist? He replied we had the largest morgue outside of Louisville, so that was not an option. I then asked WTH was going on, and he told me that families were delaying their loved ones funerals, that it was not the doing of the funeral homes. In any event, the situation resolved itself, but when I saw this mentioned here I thought I'd chime in.
It get's you wondering, what WOULD we do? Anyway, I fully expected our hospital, or any Lexington hospital, to be over run with Covid patients but, at least thus far, that hasn't been the case, thankfully. As I'm typing this we are bringing one in within minutes; they're on their way.
As to funeral homes, I can't speak for NY, or any other state/city, but where I work, (at a central Ky hospital), our morgue was one space from being 100 capacity last week. (Not all Covid of course, if any) I asked the person in charge what would happen if it became 100 occupied, would we ask other hospitals to assist? He replied we had the largest morgue outside of Louisville, so that was not an option. I then asked WTH was going on, and he told me that families were delaying their loved ones funerals, that it was not the doing of the funeral homes. In any event, the situation resolved itself, but when I saw this mentioned here I thought I'd chime in.
It get's you wondering, what WOULD we do? Anyway, I fully expected our hospital, or any Lexington hospital, to be over run with Covid patients but, at least thus far, that hasn't been the case, thankfully. As I'm typing this we are bringing one in within minutes; they're on their way.
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Not fortifying our medical infrastructure, not SDing.
According to whom? How many deaths would SD and washing hands alone have prevented and quarantining the vulnerable?
My point is we took the most drastic measure possible, went from zero to a hundred based off of a model that has no way to verify, it’s essentially the absolute worst case scenario.
According to some on here if you question that it’s akin to denying the Holocaust, flat earth, moon landing denial.
They weren’t yesterday, they had accounted for 5500 deaths which may have been what Fauci was discussing yesterday on undercounting.
It also states that if Covid is the presumed death to report as a Covid death.
People in leadership that have decided to shut the country down, other than that mostly people in the toilet paper aisle.