***DUKE VS. FLORIDA STATE POST-GAME THREAD***
- Thread starter dukehokie
- Start date
Wow. Doom and gloom ay? I look at it in a different light. First, we just lost to an awesome team. Not much mention of that. They are bigger, faster and WAY more athletic than we are. We didn't have our head coach. We didn't have our senior leader, stopper and rebounder, THE voice on the floor for us in Amile. We are still a little drowsy from the Grayson affect, I know some of you are doing your best to ignore it but he's a huge distraction right now. Our defense is in major suck mode right now but so was 2015's this time in the season and they had WAY less obstacles than this team has been dealt. I still think it's coming, but it'll take a while still with K out. Capel will learn and adjust as well, he's under a ton of pressure, you guys are pretty quick to bust his balls. I think he'll do better soon. And to the guy who said we could have his Louisville tickets, I hope you do give them away, cause Louisville is going down like a 10 cent ***** on a credit card.
The two things I would change are....
Hustle... it's so infuriating watching Tatum or someone else turn the ball over and just jog back with their head down... bust your *** off and sprint back. Also countless of times we have given up a layup after scoring or a missed shot... just no excuse to give up a layup after a made bucket. NONE
Leadership... when a team makes a run in them they just go into full panic mode, iso plays, hurried three/shot early in the shot clock, a forced pass.... they just try to make it all back at once. Amile can only do so much from the bench.
Also I can't help but think that not having a true pg on the roster is hurting us. Somebody like tyus ( i know pg like tyus just don't grow on trees) but when a team would make a run somebody to get a set play going and put the ball in the right spot would help this team leaps and bounds. I LOVE Grayson and think he's one of the top players in the country, but right now he's so focused on getting others involved as the "pg" he never seems to get himself into a rhythm. We need his scoring out there, it doesn't help when he drives and kicks it to somebody in the corner and can't make a open three those kill.
Hustle... it's so infuriating watching Tatum or someone else turn the ball over and just jog back with their head down... bust your *** off and sprint back. Also countless of times we have given up a layup after scoring or a missed shot... just no excuse to give up a layup after a made bucket. NONE
Leadership... when a team makes a run in them they just go into full panic mode, iso plays, hurried three/shot early in the shot clock, a forced pass.... they just try to make it all back at once. Amile can only do so much from the bench.
Also I can't help but think that not having a true pg on the roster is hurting us. Somebody like tyus ( i know pg like tyus just don't grow on trees) but when a team would make a run somebody to get a set play going and put the ball in the right spot would help this team leaps and bounds. I LOVE Grayson and think he's one of the top players in the country, but right now he's so focused on getting others involved as the "pg" he never seems to get himself into a rhythm. We need his scoring out there, it doesn't help when he drives and kicks it to somebody in the corner and can't make a open three those kill.
I don't think I will look at incoming freshmen classes the same after this year. If you don't gel, it just doesn't matter who you get. This seemed like a sure thing with the players we had returning, but is turning out to be a disaster. I'm not sure we have a winning record in the league this year, after being the consensus #1 team coming in.
Wasn't able to watch the game but based on everyone's reaction, it didn't seem pretty... this team needs an identity and get chemistry down... I still don't think this team has had all of its players healthy for one game (sans Obi). We are looking at January 10th... still a lot of basketball to be played... yes I totally get that this team has not looked good but we just need to relax and just let this play out...i can't remember how many times that Duke teams in the past have peaked early in the season just to lose all momentum come march and get knocked out early... if you thought this team even healthy was going to March through conference play and just destroy teams to go undefeated then I'm sorry you would be wrong (I would have loved to see it but being realistic it wasn't going to happen). This conference is deep and if you don't play your A game (esp on the road) you are going to lose. This team needs to grow together and in due time I think they will!
Now In saying this I think the Louisville game becomes a little more important in the psychological sense. This teams needs to see that they can win on the road, let alone against a top 20 team.
Now In saying this I think the Louisville game becomes a little more important in the psychological sense. This teams needs to see that they can win on the road, let alone against a top 20 team.
This team is young, inexperienced especially together, mentally never have they been punched in the mouth as much as they have this year in their entire lives. Giles you can tell wants it, he's just not there- not even close. Tatum, he shows flashes of brilliance and then you want to pull your hair out and say man what are you doing!?!?- freshman. Frank a lot of the same. Bolden- it's alarming he can't touch the floor in a game like this. Sum it all up and you have a lot of individuals and do not have a cohesive unit. How could you? You finally get them all back, none at 100% and expect them to understand how to play team defense? There are a lot of things that need to be fixed but having said all of that....we still had our chances. I liked our fight in the first half. We got up 50-48 and got called for a ******** travel on Tatum who was in a clear breakaway to put us up 4. We have a wide open Giles for an out of bounds oop that we don't convert, and then we have a wide open Grayson in the corner where Tatum just needed to touch pass too him and instead tried to stick it into a tight window to Giles. Each time FsU converted- good on them. There are plenty of adjustments to be made, I am hopeful that the teams will and ultimate goals they made when all healthy this summer are still there. If they are and they buy in, they can get there. We lost to a top ten team on the road- had chances and we are still very raw. Hopefully we see the bigger picture.
Good post. The main thing is, despite all that was going against Duke, they had opportunities to really, bring things closer together in this game on multiple occasions. Can they get fully healthy in time to make it all work?
Time will tell- really depends on how mentally tough they are and how much they're willing to buy in and learn. 2015 had it....this summer these kids were saying the right things and putting in the time. Sometimes things don't go your way and you have adversity- what are you going to do about it? When you get crushed under immense pressure do you crumble or are you the diamond forged? I'm hoping it's the latter.
Tatum isn't as good as he thinks he is. How many dunks in the last several minutes did he get blocked or miss?
Jeter seems terrified to have the ball in the post. He looks to get rid of it asap.
We really needed Amile.
Harry, at this point, doesn't provide much at all on defense.
Grayson, Luke, and Amile are the only three I get a real sense of legitimate passion for this team.
Jeter seems terrified to have the ball in the post. He looks to get rid of it asap.
We really needed Amile.
Harry, at this point, doesn't provide much at all on defense.
Grayson, Luke, and Amile are the only three I get a real sense of legitimate passion for this team.
Great post, Show! Too soon to write off this team.
And when FSU shows up in Cameron, a payback *** whipping will be waiting for them.
OFC
And Matt.
We have a ways to go and it's not going to be easy. This team hasn't had a single defining moment yet and it's mid-January when they next take the court. It's time to take it upon themselves, because while there's time, it's also running out. The season is half over. If they want to be defined as "the team that could have been" then fine....but righting the ship and growing together must start now.
I'll be there. Not throwing in the towel just yet. I do agree we need to see less of Tatum dominating the ball completely killed Duke's offense. Tonight it was really tough to watch and it's as frustrated I've been in awhile. I do think we need the Grayson who hunts his shot as well. He only had 6 shots tonight, compared to Tatum 17, Kennard 15, Matt Jones 8.
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Whenever Tatum didn't throw the ball to Grayson for the corner 3 & tried to oop Giles from the top of the key I about came unglued. Seems like he tries to make the extraordinary play at times instead of the ordinary one.
What were seeing should tell us how special those 15 dudes really were, it should also show us the importance of not only a Pg but a pg that's a tremendous leader. I've always thought the ideal captain is a veteran, major contributing PG.
It's easy to talk the talk in June, but these boys outa high school have run into grown *** men now.... It's time to walk the walk.
It's easy to talk the talk in June, but these boys outa high school have run into grown *** men now.... It's time to walk the walk.
I don't think we have played well since we moved Frank out of the starting lineup..we where playing as a pretty good team although shorthanded with Frank as the PG and Grayson and Luke as the other two guards...
Tatum came back and Frank went to the bench...We lost Grayson as the other shooter opposite Luke and it has hurt us IMO....
Tatum came back and Frank went to the bench...We lost Grayson as the other shooter opposite Luke and it has hurt us IMO....
Out starting Lineups where Frank,Grayson,Luke,Matt and Amile...that team is significantly better than any team we have put on the floor since....
We should have worked the freshmen into what we where already doing...instead we have tried to change everything for them and we have lost ourselves.....
We should have worked the freshmen into what we where already doing...instead we have tried to change everything for them and we have lost ourselves.....
Can try zone but there were countless times where our guards double/tripled on the perimeter leaving the entire weakside & high post completely open. My sons 11u AAU team understands zone better.
Tatum has incredible athletic skills but does not know how to play the game of basketball.
Team needs to order some onions.
Tatum has incredible athletic skills but does not know how to play the game of basketball.
Team needs to order some onions.
#1 is health, which is one of the things we just can't do much about. Bring Harry along slowly, sure, but Amile...
#2 is chemistry, but that's a by-product of health.
For things that are totally within our control to focus on: #1 defense and #2 shot selection.
In terms of specific players: Amile's health is #1... and I'm going w/ Grayson's mentality in a nail-biter over Harry's health for #2. Oh, but that's still health, which we don't fully control, so... #1 is Grayson's role: Amile may be the more appropriate leader, but captaincy or not, Grayson's ability on the court is the most developed so far in terms of explosiveness and multiple skills that affect the team. He doesn't have the greatest potential, and he is unlikely to surpass Luke in scoring, but so much depends on him. Determining his role and getting his buy-in will give him the focus and control to avoid silly fouls and emotional outbursts. #2 is Jayson's role: for the combination of potential plus readiness, he is far ahead of all the other freshmen. He's our best mismatch at this point, and if he makes better decisions within the flow of the game, it will help tremendously. Right now, Jayson is like a dominant, take-over player on a team that doesn't need him to do that.
From an opponent's perspective, I think right now your main issue is how much pressure is put on the starters to produce. if any of those guys have an off night, and someone doesn't compensate, it is trouble. The second biggest issue is a lack of a traditional point guard. Grayson shouldn't be in the position to be a facilitator. While he has excelled at it, he is a terrific scorer and that is what he does best. Teams with big guards and big front lines will learn to stay at home and contest instead of giving him assist opportunities to guys on the perimeter.
It felt weird not having to sweat out the potential game winning field goal against you guys last night in a victory. I think going to a zone at least allows you to reduce the energy being expended on defense, and maybe gives you a chance to rotate some guys in who aren't getting a lot of minutes just to give guys a longer breather.
Good luck on getting healthy
It felt weird not having to sweat out the potential game winning field goal against you guys last night in a victory. I think going to a zone at least allows you to reduce the energy being expended on defense, and maybe gives you a chance to rotate some guys in who aren't getting a lot of minutes just to give guys a longer breather.
Good luck on getting healthy
Hm, thought I would post this here, because by accident I put it in the game thread, instead of the postgame thread.
I think that some of what people are passing off as impossible-to-quantify stuff like "heart" and "hustle" and "desire" are actually more like the other guy just being physically bigger and longer and more athletic and developed. A lot of seriously strong, big, quick guys on that FSU team. I feel like we usually have a lot of high skill guys, but we don't always have the serious athletes like other teams. When we do (guys like Winslow) they tend to do well, but... And that physical advantage shows both when playing D against guys who are not as much physical specimens, and also trying to defend that type, where length, strength, and foot speed are so important. And that is where we struggled; they bothered us on D, and drove past and out jumped a number of our guys on O.
I don't think our guys don't care or are being out hearted or out hustled... I think that physically some of them just aren't at the same level as a lot of the FSU guys. We might need to recruit some more physical athletes, and play them.
(Age helped them too, a little... They had some guys who were older and more physically developed too.)
I think that some of what people are passing off as impossible-to-quantify stuff like "heart" and "hustle" and "desire" are actually more like the other guy just being physically bigger and longer and more athletic and developed. A lot of seriously strong, big, quick guys on that FSU team. I feel like we usually have a lot of high skill guys, but we don't always have the serious athletes like other teams. When we do (guys like Winslow) they tend to do well, but... And that physical advantage shows both when playing D against guys who are not as much physical specimens, and also trying to defend that type, where length, strength, and foot speed are so important. And that is where we struggled; they bothered us on D, and drove past and out jumped a number of our guys on O.
I don't think our guys don't care or are being out hearted or out hustled... I think that physically some of them just aren't at the same level as a lot of the FSU guys. We might need to recruit some more physical athletes, and play them.
(Age helped them too, a little... They had some guys who were older and more physically developed too.)
Down in the lower level somewhere. My buddy has the tickets. I'll have to ask him. I know it's behind the Louisville bench somewhere!
I loath ESPN.... Top news story on the main page is Grayson Allen Shoves FSU assistant coach.. I guess you aren't allowed to dive for a ball anymore out of bounds. Unbelievable
It continually amazes me that highly regarded freshmen come in with no man to man fundamentals at all. I know I played 100 years ago but that's all we learned in 10th grade. But guys like Tatum, Giles etc. have no clue.
I agree that when you are getting little or no help on rotation, you can't play aggressively on the ball 40 feet from the basket where it's likely you are going to get beat to the basket.
Having said that, history tells us that a January melt down often leads to success in April. Let's hope the coaches straighten out this group and in two months the guys mature into a cohesive team.
I agree that when you are getting little or no help on rotation, you can't play aggressively on the ball 40 feet from the basket where it's likely you are going to get beat to the basket.
Having said that, history tells us that a January melt down often leads to success in April. Let's hope the coaches straighten out this group and in two months the guys mature into a cohesive team.