Edey is not very mobile, simply huge. Could Matt Nicholson have been more effective in defending him? He has been fairly mobile in his limited appearances and would have been a bigger body, possibly making entrance passes more difficult. He had 5 fouls to give. I remember NU v UCLA at Chicago Stadium in '69 NU used 3 centers against Alcindor(KAJ) Sarno, Sutton and ? "aggressively" defended him and NU was ahead by 10 at the half after shooting less than 30 %. Unfortunately NU really got cold in the second half and lost. NU had 20 fouls to give on Edey, 5 each from Nicholson, Williams, Young and Nance. Recreate the "Hack a Shaq" defense
Edey
- Thread starter docrugby1
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Edey made Ryan Young look like a shrimp. For a guy that big and that young, he is remarkably agile. He really is a freak.
And, yes, Nicholson should have played against him--probably to the point where he used up his 5 fouls. I think Nicholson could have given him trouble on offense.
And, yes, Nicholson should have played against him--probably to the point where he used up his 5 fouls. I think Nicholson could have given him trouble on offense.
I actually thought we did a pretty good job on him yesterday. Things started falling apart when Purdue started nailing all their threes. That was what caused them to pull away in the 2nd half.
Our shooting at home has just been abysmal this year. 35 percent last night. That's not going to beat many teams, and I thought the shots they missed were actually some pretty good looks. It was also bad in the three point loss to Illinois last month, and even the win over Indiana. Defense has not been the issue with this team in the home games I witnessed. So, no, Nicholson would not have helped because he is no threat offensively.
Despite plenty to criticize about Collins, I refuse to believe that coaches are so dumb that they just can't see something that certain fans think is so obvious. He knows things about his team that fans, including those on this board, don't. If he isn't playing MN more, there is a reason. Collins wants to win even worse than we do. It's easy for us as fans to say - do this! take a chance and try it! - but I imagine these decisions aren't as easy as they seem to those of us on the outside.
Sounded good until that silly conclusion. I will counter your opinion with some facts.
There are several stats over on Basketball-reference that paint a very different picture.
Who leads our team in ORtg (Offensive Rating) in Big Ten games?
(this is points produced per 100 possessions)
Matt Nicholson. 139.
Pete Nance 109
Boo Buie 108.
Robbie Beran 104.8
Who leads our team in PER (Player Efficiency Rating) in Big Ten games?
Nicholson 21.6
Nance 19.3
Young 17.8
Buie 17.6
Who leads our team in "WinShares per 40 minutes" in Big Ten games?
(An average player on an average team gets a 0.1)
Nicholson 0.229
Nance 0.128
Buie 0.115
Young 0.104
Beran 0.087
Yes, Nicholson has played a smaller sample. One of the biggest mistakes you can make when evaluating anything is to ignore small samples that totally contradict your expectations.
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How many minutes has Nicholson played in big ten games? I’m not against him getting more minutes but drawing conclusions on his very limited pt seems a bit much
looked it up 26 mins in 7 games. Sorry but that’s pretty much zero sample size. Hell barnhizer has 20 minutes
A more typical response to success over a small sample size is to see whether that success can be replicated over a larger sample size.
We did the first part of what is necessary to beat Purdue - make them shoot (reasonably) poorly. We also limited their offensive rebounding, Ivey had his worst game of the season, Williams had his 2nd-worst game of the year and Stefanovic only had 1 3-pointer. It was Purdue's 4th-least efficient performance on the year and a significant improvement from the first game against them.
The reason we lost is by not taking advantage of their mediocre defense - 50% shooting on layups, with 4 misses by Young, and abysmal 3-point shooting with Boo, Audige, Berry and Roper going 4-20. It's the worst shooting performance against Purdue in a conference game this year - they allowed an average of 51% shooting on 2's, and we shot 40.6% last night.
Also, Audige playing stupid defense in the beginning of the 2nd half probably cost us too.
I said he should get more pt. This idea he’s our savior if CC would only play him is over the top though
he’s also got 9 fouls in 26 mins. Big ten refs love to call fouls on guys like MN so my guess is his minutes would be self limiting
I’ll cut young a little slack since layups against a guy like edey aren’t as easy. Beran missed an easy one early. I thought our missing some wide open 3’s was the killer
I specifically recall a play where Elyjah made a nice move to drive the baseline, came up against Mt. Edey, and tried to climb him, only to get rejected. I think it was Roper who was standing all alone in the far corner, waiting for a dish and wide open look. He is still there, waiting...
I did notice Chase and Boo driving and dishing back a few times last night. That was progress. But seeing Williams miss the dish to the open look made me want to gouge my eyes with a ski pole.
I am a Boston Celtics' fan for the NBA. Lately, they have been playing much better than the beginning of the season. One thing the local commentators calling all their games talk about is the improved ball movement and the ability, especially for stars like Jayson Tatum and Jaylin Brown, to hit open teammates as they drive to the hoop. It is much improved and everyone talks about how fans needed to be patient because it takes time to develop these skills.
I saw the exact same play you did and also yelled at my tv, but I'm guessing it's not as easy to recognize on the floor as we think it is and it takes a lot of time, reps and comfort with teammates to do that well. A guy like Williams isn't in that position very often. Though I think if Boo wants to take the next step, he really needs to think about driving to the basket with intent to pass first. That, though, involves the other 4 guys cutting to spots on the floor where Boo can find them. Not all the blame is on Boo and Audige. Our guys have this propensity to stand around and watch the ballhandler. We need more movement from everyone!
Don't you drive yourself a bit nuts, banging your head against the wall and repeating the same thing into the void repeatedly? I think everyone that opens up this message board up once or more a month gets your point, you don't need to repeat it ad nauseum. Some agree with you, some disagree with you, but IMO you aren't adding value by further restating it at this point. Instead you are potentially building annoyance toward you from some subset of the board (or from me, at least).
From watching Nicholson play I think the numbers are (a) small sample size, (b) influenced by competition, (c) generated in spite of rather than because of him (he has high shooting % at 8-11 this year but also has high turnover rate), and (d) don't account for factors that hurt us down the line when he is off the floor (accumulating fouls). All that said I think he's earned the chance to play at least one stretch per game (~3+ minutes) against most opponents, as long as it's not a severe matchup issue. And against a team like Purdue, if anything it's a matchup benefit to throw him out there against Edey because it would have freed Nance up on defense, so I think he should have played probably one stretch each half, and maybe more if it was working well.
But this isn't new ground, we've covered it many times over. Safe to say that in my opinion playing Nicholson more is more of an experiment / learning experience - and due to his limitations currently, that is not the difference between us winning and losing B1G games.
These are excellent points. Intangibles that mainly show up in the players +/-.
If you look at Assists/40 minutes, you get some indications about court awareness.
Robbie Beran has 0.7 assists per 40.
Ty Berry has 1.1 assist per 40. Roper is 1.5.
Williams is 1.7.
I don’t even know what “winshares” are. However, if this data is saying MN is twice as likely to influence a win for NU as any other player, then the star is seriously a joke.
IMO, NU losses to Purdue with Edny playing the same exact number of minutes that MN played yesterday. NU’s defense is improving and it’s offense is regressing. We have to make open shots. PU just has quite a bit more talent.
The Win Shares calculation takes box score data and translates it into a probability of victory for the player's team, based on a study of how those stats translates into college wins and losses.
So in this case it indicates that if everybody played the same amount, Nicholson would have the biggest positive impact and has played at a very high level for the time he has been on the court.
Yes it is a small sample. But it is in conference games. It isn't my calculation. It is complicated.
I think you are being a bit kind. I never played the game, but isn't SOP to have the guy on low weak side get in position for a corner spot-up when the ball goes inside? And the guy inside should notice the double team / help and find that open guy? They showed the replay, and Elyjah was forced by Edey to his left (into the middle paint), and had a pretty clear sightline to Roper.
I did notice Elyjah also driving a few times into the high paint / post, run into Mt. Edey, and then spin and look to kick it out. On those occasions (I recall two), our guards kinda stood around. Now on that play, I would think it would sense for a guard to move into the mid-range area behind Williams in the high post, which places him in a spot for an open mid-range jumper, or the option to use Williams as a ball screen to get a shot off.
But I am just a mere basketball plebian, so the finer points are probably lost on me. But it seems like our off-ball movement is often stagnant.
Other than small sample size, which I conceded up front, your opinions "b" and "c" are factually incorrect.
I talk about Nicholson because he is so much better than Collins wrongly believes.
I bang my head against the wall because I really want NU to win games and I am certain that our coach is making that very difficult.
It's often the corner. But, more precisely, the player without the ball should move to the angle where it is easiest for his team mate to get him the ball.
On a base line drive like Williams' it's the corner. On a drive towards the middle it is often at 3/4 behind the 3 pt line. Ultimately it depends on where the defenders are. What you often see is players just watching and not moving.
Agree with that. The problem with Nicholson isn't that he can't score. It's that when he does get into a game, his sample size tends to be self-limiting. To be expected with most sophomore big men.
maybe move back to All-State Arena or Alumni Hall. Oh wait, the Hall no longer exists.
I was not suggesting MN be NU's starting center. I believe some playing time against Edey was reasonable because of the size matchup and to protect Nance and Young from early foul trouble. He could have played more or less minutes depending on his effectiveness
This is the core argument of the Play Nicholson Lobby. He should be getting at least some minutes against all B1G bigs, especially ones like Edey. The fact that he did not play at all is a travesty of coaching. He was not going to lose the game for us by playing 5 minutes.
I’d really like to know what Collins is thinking (not that I expect to) by not playing a guy who has a schollie invested in his development. It’s inexcusable.
Maybe Collins was thinking, we held Edey and Williams to 18 points, we did a pretty good job with the guys guarding him. With MN we'd be playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end. Matt just isn't ready.
NU didn't lose to PU because they did a bad job on Edey. PU is just all around the better team.
Man I can't wait until MN graduates and we can move on without every game becoming a "why didn't Collins play MN more" thread.
Edey absolutely dominated us. I’m not sure we were watching the same game. He had really good touch and because we had Nance on him he’s draw a double which would open up their shooters. We did a very nice job on Williams but needed a bigger body to try to stop Edey as he dominated the game.
He was good enough against MSU for sustained minutes. Without him in that game we do not win.
I only look short next to you and Uber, the starting front court for the the upper deck of WR team. I tower over Turk. Dynamite comes in small packages.
This is the crazy thing. He was an absolutely key player in NU’s best win of the season. It took two injuries to get him on the court, and he’s not been able to find his way back. (Exception is Illinois where, granted, 3 fouls in a minute wasn’t good. But Simmons did the same, and he’s made his way back.)
I just don’t understand what there is to lose…
Purple and I should come clean: we are good friends, and often attend NU events together (with Uber, who somehow tolerates people much dumber than him).
The flame war was for entertainment purposes only.
But Nicholson still deserves more time!
The flame war was for entertainment purposes only.
But Nicholson still deserves more time!
"I just don’t understand what there is to lose…"
At this point, Collins himself would look bad if Nicholson played well.
Of course there would be a few martyrs who immediately pointed out how great a coaching job Collins had done with Nicholson "in the last week or two."
Sorry dude, wrong from top to bottom. Granted Purdue is the better team. Everything else is false.