Electives in College

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

If I was 18 again I'd be taking like 18 hours a semester and a couple each summer so I could finish in 3 years or allow the 4th year to be an internship or entry level paid work in my major field.

I somewhat did this. The school limited you to 6 credit hours per semester and 12 total credit hours for internships and my major required I take 12 internship credit hours.

So I did a semester's worth of credit hours over two summers. I also took 18 credit hours one semester but three of those credit hours were for an easy A computer class where I knew I would never have to study (to be fair I did learn some useful stuff in that computer class so it wasn't a complete waste).

That way I could take the minimum 12 hrs/semester as a senior, half of which was for internships. 8 of the 13 remaining credits (I took 25 total) was classes for my major, and the other 5 were easy A classes, but two of them were beneficial (career development, conscious relaxation techniques for 1 credit each).

My strategy worked quite nicely because I was actually able to take the bare minimum of credit hours for my final two years of college. Got half my credits done in three regular semesters + one summer school session.While taking 4 classes in one summer sucked, it paid off for those final two years, everyone else working their butts off while I was taking the minimum and having an easy senior year.

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

I took a lot of things that I never used, like French, Latin and Trig and some calculus, but all of that trains your mind to think, which should be one of the main goals of higher education, thus I think some level of electives, especially outside of your college major, is really beneficial.

But . . . if you know you want to be a mason or an electrician, or a real estate agent, or a restaurant owner (many of whom make a damn good living), technically you don't have to study any of those subjects. I think you may be missing out on a lot of ideas which will broaden you, but it is a personal choice, no one is going to put a gun to your head to make you learn to conjugate verbs in a foreign language or how to calculate the volume of a lake.

[Sorry, I guess I did wade into the subject]

Why would you go to a four-year college to be a mason, electrician, or real estate agent? There are trade schools/trade courses for those fields...

Hell not really needed for restaurant owner either but the business classes would be helpful.

 

[JumperJack]

This is a sad thread. But if you look at higher education as a "racket" and merely a place for "indoctrination" then I guess I could see how you see no value in "elective" courses.

This was probably true 30 or 40 years ago. But if at this point a person doesn’t understand that it’s a racket, and why, then carry on. Only don’t ask for the blue collar folks to pay for it.

 

[Beatle Bum]

This is a sad thread. But if you look at higher education as a "racket" and merely a place for "indoctrination" then I guess I could see how you see no value in "elective" courses.

Yeah, that made it less “sad.” Well done!

 

[Beatle Bum]

If you don't want to take classes outside of your major, then go to a trade school.

Why must someone pursue a trade if they simply want to be educated in the profession they desire and know they can learn other things on their own? That sounds like an awfully defensive snobbish post.

Regardless, explain why an engineering or business student MUST take electives. Why must a STEM degree require humanities or other non-stem class work?

 

[Beatle Bum]

I had to take some communications class where one of the main tasks of the class was for each person to write and deliver in front of the class several speeches with the "difficulty level" being increased each time. So you could have like the whole speech written out the first time and you could essentially just read it. Next time you could only have a bunch of notes. Next one you could only do like 5 note cards. Next one like one card. Or something like that.

It definitely made me a whole lot more comfortable and comfortable with public speaking and the like. I mean I still don't like it, but I have been plenty comfortable and confident doing it ever since. Paid dividends in grad school as there were a lot of presentations I had to do. Ended up being quite helpful in my previous career in college athletics as I ended up doing some PA Announcing and commentary on streamed games, something which I can't imagine me ever being able to do if I hadn't been required to take the class.

That is great. And, the idea that electives are not potentially beneficial is not really being promoted. Classroom study can be very enlightening and beneficial, but must it be required? I took philosophy, history, geography, and pharm electives that were a joke. On the other hand, I enjoyed my sociology and astronomy electives.

But, back then, it was all very reasonably priced. We are dealing with a problems of the cost of college in this country. Why should a university say that a student can only earn a degree if they take classes they don’t need for the profession they choose?

 

[Beatle Bum]

Hell not really needed for restaurant owner either but the business classes would be helpful.

Having known many restaurateurs, there is no doubt a degree is helpful. Hell, I did not have a degree in business and Ford offered me a business position between college and grad school. It was clear they were going to train me and I did not need a business degree. But, it would have helped.

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

Why must someone pursue a trade if they simply want to be educated in the profession they desire and know they can learn other things on their own?

You're the one advocating for people to go through trade-school type training, not me. So ask yourself that question, not me.

 

[Dore95]

The OP asks questions but then ridiculed anyone who tries to answer. But here are my responses to this idea:

1. Very few kids go to college with a chosen “profession”. You need a broad education to be prepared to do multiple things. You asked why a “stem” student would need to take classes in anything other than “stem”. How about to be a better “stem” professional? Learning how to read, write, think critically, orate, etc. are not skills you learn in stem classes but they are essential to being successful in anything. Unless your goal is to be at the bottom rung of the profession.

2. Who goes to college to be a “restaurant owner” or a “real estate agent”? The latter is something people pursue later on in life and not in their twenties. The former requires capital, which people do not usually have in college.

3. The fact that some electives in college are BS (golf or whatever) does not mean that all are. The idea espoused here that basic liberal arts classes are of no use is what is sad.

 

[Beatle Bum]

The OP asks questions but then ridiculed anyone who tries to answer. But here are my responses to this idea:

1. Very few kids go to college with a chosen “profession”. You need a broad education to be prepared to do multiple things. You asked why a “stem” student would need to take classes in anything other than “stem”. How about to be a better “stem” professional? Learning how to read, write, think critically, orate, etc. are not skills you learn in stem classes but they are essential to being successful in anything. Unless your goal is to be at the bottom rung of the profession.

2. Who goes to college to be a “restaurant owner” or a “real estate agent”? The latter is something people pursue later on in life and not in their twenties. The former requires capital, which people do not usually have in college.

3. The fact that some electives in college are BS (golf or whatever) does not mean that all are. The idea espoused here that basic liberal arts classes are of no use is what is sad.

I was critical of your silly post. Solution: don’t post such stupid things.

(1) Again, we must repeat that no one here seems to be contending that electives not be offered. It’s a fiction to claim that removing mandatory electives would somehow keep the undecided student from taking electives. Saying otherwise is a strawman argument. Almost every engineering student arrives to college knowing they wanting an engineering degree. Many business majors are the same way. This idea that college courses are required to be better at something is kind of sad. But, IF a STEM student thinks their high school English experience was not sufficient, let them take a true “elective,” rather than mandate the course. Why should their STEM degree require the course? It should not. My son was a 4.0 STEM student at UK. He never took a college English course. He is near the top of his profession.

(2) Not really relevant.

(3) another strawman. No one needs to believe all electives are BS to understand they should just be electives for people who want to take them. And, no one said liberal arts classes are of no use. Strawman. If an English major goes to college, should they be forced to take STEM courses? No.

 

[Dore95]

You come up with a proposition that would radically change the way that college education has been structured from the beginning. Which is fine, new ideas are to be commended. But then you ridicule and call “stupid” anyone who disagrees. It is great that your son never took an English class and still succeeded. But maybe he would have done even better if he had. Isn’t that possible?

 

[Tskware]

Need to clarify my statement above, if you want to be a restaurant owner, electrician, mason, real estate agent, what I meant is that you don't need any education above a HS diploma (technically don't need that), so obviously, you don't need to take any electives, or any other college classes either. thought that was obvious, but apparently not.

But at least in my experience, the really successful folks in all those professions have mostly been college graduates (not all) but most.

 

[Monroe Claxton]

You don’t need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing

 

[TortElvisII]

You don’t need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing

Thanks Zimmerman.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

In terms of actual learning, college was a total waste for my career in IT. I had just SIX courses on computer related topics, and almost all of them were janky and outdated. Everything I know in my career was from prior knowledge, self-taught or from on the job experience. Intern/temp by 22, Helpdesk at 24, SysAdmin at 28, Engineer by 31, Senior Engineer by 33.

I DO think college offers you valuable "life experience", however.

 

[Beatle Bum]

You come up with a proposition that would radically change the way that college education has been structured from the beginning. Which is fine, new ideas are to be commended. But then you ridicule and call “stupid” anyone who disagrees. It is great that your son never took an English class and still succeeded. But maybe he would have done even better if he had. Isn’t that possible?

You have a candor problem. You did not state disagreement with my opinion, you criticized the existence of the thread. NOW, you say new ideas are to be commended. You may want to attempt consistency.

My kids are incredibly well-rounded and seem to be willing to take on new things all of the time. So, I seriously doubt a few more classes would have improved their lives or professions. Again, if they wanted that from a university, they can pay for that. It should not be compelled.

Your prior post to which I responded to criticism with criticism:

This is a sad thread. But if you look at higher education as a "racket" and merely a place for "indoctrination" then I guess I could see how you see no value in "elective" courses.

 

[Perrin75]

The College structure that this thread is complaining about has been in place since the first College was opened. It is based on a concept of a liberal education. And liberal in this since does not have anything to do with the way it is used in American politics. The whole point of a liberal education in college is to train you on how to think, how to question and how to take knowledge and apply it. The purpose of this type of college was never to train you for a job. That is what trade/vocational schools are for.

I would have to look up what the current statistics are, but traditionally, the majority of people who earn a bachelor's degree do not work in their field of study. A large percentage of these folks end up in careers that didn't even exist at the time they started college. A liberal education has always been more about can you think as opposed to can you do.

This model may change. There is so much of an emphasis on the Job portion of this that most schools are basically only producing graduates in 4 categories: Business, Engineering, Education and Healthcare. A lot of degree programs are just disappearing. Personally, I think this is the wrong approach. This other concept is called a Professional Education, and it does have its purpose, but it also creates limitations. The biggest being that it doesn't open the pathway for that next generation of innovators. Take China as an example. Massive country. Highly intelligent and trained population. Yet almost no innovation is coming out of that country. People are trained to do a thing in a specific way, as opposed to take information and look for new ways to apply it.

Our country needs engineers, but it also needs thinkers and artists as well. Pushing the envelope is what made our country great. For me, the best class I took in college was an elective that I took on a whim because it fit my schedule. It was a class in Logic and I have found I use information and skills I learned there a lot. Heck, without it, companies like Google wouldn't exist. I would hate to see those sorts of classes go away.

 

[JonathanW_rivals]

One size does NOT fit all.

Some kids when they enter college know exactly what they want to do after college, and that's fine; but most don't, and that is fine too.
So lots of electives for those that don't helps them find what they like (or don't like) and maybe want to be, so it makes sense for them. But should those who know exactly what they want be required to do the same things as those who don't? I don't think so. And then there are those who think they know what they want, but have a complete reversal once they are there, and that is ok too.

Trade schools are fine, and good for some professions, but obviously not all. In fact most professions are not trade school professions. And many professions you learn how to do the job "on the job" rather than in school. But what you learn in school is "how to learn".

Another consideration is cost. When I was in college (30-35 years ago), 4 years cost under $10K total. Now that won't get you 1 semester; if you go out of state, it won't even get you 1 quarter (4 years at a state school is probably about 10x what it was then). That's much more than can be accounted for by 30 years of inflation. So these requirements of unnecessary courses are a large burden. If I am a nuclear engineering student, do I really need music appreciation? No. Does it hurt me to take it? No, BUT it costs me a lot.

Lastly, I think some of the electives requirements are there to artificially support programs what would not otherwise be supported. Most students would not take some classes, like maybe Philosophy, unless it was a required elective, and to be able to have enough students to have a staffed Philosophy department they need a way to increase enrollment in those classes. There are some degrees whose only profession that degree is useful in is to teach others that same area of study.

As for the "enlightenment" argument. Only a very small minority of students go to college for that reason. Maybe that was the primary purpose of universities 200 years ago, but not now.