Fenwick / Plainfield
- Thread starter feeto
- Start date
Last play of game as time expires Fenwick QB throws a high pass out of bounds. The clock reads 0:00 but the ref throws a flag and declears intentional grounding. The refs impose a lose of down resulting in turn over on downs to PN and grant 1 untimed play from the Fenwick 10. PN kicks a field goal to tie the game 10-10. PN wins toss Fenwick ends up on offense to start and scores a TD and proceeds with the PAT 17-10. PN comes out and scores a TD as well and elects to go for 2. PN scores the 2 on a stretch play and runs off the field.
Fenwick up 10-7 and intentionally grounded the ball to run out the clock. Refs give PN an untimed down. they kick a fg to make it 10-10 to go to OT. Fenwick scores first to go up 17-10. PN scores and goes for two, wins 18-17.
In regards to the untimed down:
Rule 3 Section 3 Article 4:
A period shall not be extended by an untimed down if one of the following occurred during a down in which time expires:
b. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted for:
3. fouls that include loss of down (such as intentional grounding)
In regards to the untimed down:
Rule 3 Section 3 Article 4:
A period shall not be extended by an untimed down if one of the following occurred during a down in which time expires:
b. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted for:
3. fouls that include loss of down (such as intentional grounding)
HHS,
It's been a huge topic of discussion in the ref world this season due to inappropriate application in the OK State/CMU game this fall...there are NO excuses for the outcome this time. Plenty of time to consult the rule book during their 5 minute conference and Coach Nudo's two requested timeouts while icing the kicker.
It's been a huge topic of discussion in the ref world this season due to inappropriate application in the OK State/CMU game this fall...there are NO excuses for the outcome this time. Plenty of time to consult the rule book during their 5 minute conference and Coach Nudo's two requested timeouts while icing the kicker.
HHS,
Honestly if you have even the most minimal doubt and are being questioned by the coaches, consult the rule book. The fact is time had expired and the game concluded meant there was pertly of time to get it right. When adding an untimed down that had better than a 50% chance of effecting the outcome of the game and a trip to the state title game there is no excuse.
Honestly if you have even the most minimal doubt and are being questioned by the coaches, consult the rule book. The fact is time had expired and the game concluded meant there was pertly of time to get it right. When adding an untimed down that had better than a 50% chance of effecting the outcome of the game and a trip to the state title game there is no excuse.
HHS,
Me or the refs. Your right I did not, but per Gooms there was a huge issue made of this specific rule this season in September due to Ok State/CMU game. Hence my comment NO excuse.
Me or the refs. Your right I did not, but per Gooms there was a huge issue made of this specific rule this season in September due to Ok State/CMU game. Hence my comment NO excuse.
I meant the refs... the ironic part is I umpire games for one of the officials, we have been told if you don't know the rule, please grab a rule book lol
HHS,
Be careful you'll get pulled into court to testify about the rule book statement.
Be careful you'll get pulled into court to testify about the rule book statement.
Some food for thought about the current situation:
https://www.nfhs.org/articles/school-legal-challenges-to-state-association-rulings/
https://www.nfhs.org/articles/school-legal-challenges-to-state-association-rulings/
Bottom line will be even if this is brought to court it won't win....counter argument has always been IHSA is a voluntary organization and if you don't like the rules...you are free to leave. Understand that's not my opinion whatsoever that's just a short summary of how most of not all of the legal challenges wind up.
I thought it was interesting that the official IHSA statement references the fact that Fenwick Principal, Peter Groom, is a "is a valued member" of the IHSA Board of Directors. How awkward will the next meeting of the board be for Mr. Peter Groom?
Off the top of my head I can think of at least two legal challenges that wound up ruling against the IHSA.
BTW, I know a legal challenge wouldn't win in this case. I would like to see one anyway if only to watch the IHSA squirm in the public eye as they try to defend their position and their decision against the rightful winners of that game.
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To be honest I knew the rule. I was leaving the game. Turned to see the call, thought "my God they don't know their own rules."
Watched referees conference. I thought they would get it right. But no they didn't. Mentioned it to some PN fans. They thought I didn't know what I was talking about.
I coach high school football. Every spring I reread the rule book.
Watched referees conference. I thought they would get it right. But no they didn't. Mentioned it to some PN fans. They thought I didn't know what I was talking about.
I coach high school football. Every spring I reread the rule book.
mpercie,
I've mentioned this before and just wanted your opinion. If Nudo had told the ref his intentions on that play before running the play and why, do you think the refs would have called this play the same way?
Anotherwords Nudo knowing the playbook and telling the refs what that playbook states before the play.
Wassup
I've mentioned this before and just wanted your opinion. If Nudo had told the ref his intentions on that play before running the play and why, do you think the refs would have called this play the same way?
Anotherwords Nudo knowing the playbook and telling the refs what that playbook states before the play.
Wassup
This is a terrible situation, but the final result will be an ESL/PN final, played at some point in time if not next Saturday due to a temporary order by a court. I feel bad for all 3 schools.
Possible solution going forward: head coach gets one challenge call per game, where the officials must place a call to IHSA hq to review a call and the rules involved. You can't challenge a call, just the rule being used and it's interpretation. If you're wrong it costs you a timeout; no timeouts, it's a 15 yard penalty for delay of game. Of course, IHSA must establish an office for the calls. Maybe try it for a year or 2 during playoffs only.
Officials won't like this because it is a challenge to their control of the game. But, part of being an official is to act like you're certain of the call and the rules. And as this past weekend proves, it might be time to give coaches a challenge to help ensure that the actual rules are being applied, and not just a guess.
Possible solution going forward: head coach gets one challenge call per game, where the officials must place a call to IHSA hq to review a call and the rules involved. You can't challenge a call, just the rule being used and it's interpretation. If you're wrong it costs you a timeout; no timeouts, it's a 15 yard penalty for delay of game. Of course, IHSA must establish an office for the calls. Maybe try it for a year or 2 during playoffs only.
Officials won't like this because it is a challenge to their control of the game. But, part of being an official is to act like you're certain of the call and the rules. And as this past weekend proves, it might be time to give coaches a challenge to help ensure that the actual rules are being applied, and not just a guess.
If lawsuit happy T Boone Pickens didn't think a legal challenge would work, why does anyone at Fenwick???
Now is there anyway a crazed fan could file a lawsuit against the officials???
Now is there anyway a crazed fan could file a lawsuit against the officials???
Called a friend who has refereed football and basketball for 20 years. He said under the circumstances the flag should never been dropped. And the coach could have mentioned it before he had his quarterback chuck the ball. Head coaches are always talking to the refs the whole game. But the fault still lies with the refs.
Thanks. Chucking the basketball up in the air with seconds left at the end of the game is something we often see in the college NCAA basketball tourney.
these refs should not be allowed to work next weeks championship games ,if they are its bullcrap i hope they get a good nites sleep
Hey Beat off..
They made a mistake. They are human beings.
When you screw up at work... do they roast your ***?
you are the beatoff among other things you screw up ay work you are held accountable thats what these refs deserve the kids should not have to pay for incompetence which is exactly what they were
There is precedent for the state overruling an official's "call" after the game has been completed. A few years back when Jereme Richmond played for Waukegan basketball, he was ejected from the sectional final that Waukegan won. The first T was for arguing with the ref. The second T was for hanging on the rim. By rule he would have been ineligible for the supersectional game. A day after the game the IHSA came out and said the second T should not have been called, that the ref made a poor judgement in calling the T. So the ejection was overturned and he was allowed to play in the supersectional game. Not quite the same as this situation but it does show that the IHSA can overturn a decision made by an official after the game has been completed.
Where do you work that they don't roast your ***? Seems like you have some nice job security, maybe a public sector job with little to no accountability. I know that if I made a single massive mistake that was a breach of a client contract causing my client to lose a business arrangement, I would, no doubt, be terminated by them.
Yes, lets terminate every official that makes a mistake, seems like good long term plan
No, but they damn sure should face some repercussions. This oh they are human they make mistakes is a load of BS and you know it. Suspend them from the title game, no varsity football games next year, and probationary period after that. Accountability 101
Have you EVER officiated?
If not , I suggest you sign up so you can have an opinion.
It was a regional final and he would have been suspended for the sectional semifinal but otherwise correct.
LOL are you really suggesting that because I've never done something that I can't demand accountability from those given that responsibility? I've never been president, so I should just stop any political criticism, right? It's ideas like that that are responsible for the sorry state of politics and public institutions across this country, whether conservative or liberal.
I have been both a player and a coach. Acting outside of the rules in both of those environments has gotten many a player and coach suspended or kicked off the team. Why? Because they are held accountable by their parents, schools, refs or the IHSA. I've done the suspending. I've seen teammates get suspended. It's really not asking a lot for officials to know the rules of the game, especially when this EXACT same situation has already occurred on a high profile stage earlier this very same season. If they don't know the rules of the game, which is fundamentally different than making a poor judgment call, they have no business refereeing a state semifinal.
And again, just to be clear, I'm not demanding they be fired. But I am demanding that they be held ACCOUNTABLE. No state championship next week, no varsity games next year, probation after that.
And every time a coach makes a mistake or a player makes a mistake, they are treated the same way???
This kind of thing happens a lot, it's usually just buried in a regular season 42-7 game... last year we had a crew give the other team a 5th down, but it ended up being a running clock game in September ... should that crew also been suspended???
For goodness sake sir. There is a difference between that and what happened Saturday. I know you know these guys but come on.
Huh? If a player or coach makes such an egregious mistake outside the rules of the contest, they can be ejected or suspended. Knowingly play an ineligible player and see what happens.
And logic dictates that the punishment should fit the crime. I'm going to make an analogy that may make people angry because of its extremity, but the exact same logic applies. Awarding a 5th down in a running clock game is like driving drunk but making it home safely. I would argue they should be suspended for a week or forced to ref lower level games.
Awarding an untimed down when it shouldn't have been in that situation is like driving drunk and causing a fatal accident. There's no taking it back, but in addition to drunk driving, you get manslaughter. Those people would get their license taken away. I'm not advocating for the license to be taken away from the refs, but they should face some relatively stiff repercussions.
And I apologize for the extremity of the analogy, but like I said, its the same logic and the first similar situation (edit: not similar in seriousness but in logical progression) that popped in my mind. You can come up with many situations where essentially the same root cause leads to varying degrees of poor outcomes, and they are handled very differently because of their respective effects on the actual outcome.