Final Thoughts on Yesterday and This Season

[nets on nets on nets]

I look at Sunday as...close the gym, no coaches allowed, we beat MSU by 10 or more points, we were just that much more talented.
MSU had to manufacture a lot of points, and Izzo was brilliant. I went back and checked, and they did score after EVERY SINGLE timeout. Not only that, they scored almost every possession following the stupid every 4 minute TV timeout.

We took 3 timeouts, guess how many turnovers followed those timeouts? 3.
Then the final timeout resulted in a play that I think was fine and not willing to complain about, but still a very predictable set- give RJ the ball and let him go left.

Izzo had our number, no coincidence that within the flow of the game (mainly the stretches between the breaks,) we handled MSU easily.

 

[dopeshop23]

Really enjoyed this year. This team was a lot of fun to watch. Proud of our guys and coach. Hope they keep their promise to stay connected in the future. Good to those who decide leave, and praying for health and good fortune in all future endeavors.

 

[timmuh1515]

Go back and watch that last 3 from MSU. Duke was so focused on Winston but MSU runs a play using him as a decoy...twice. He also set a backscreen that would’ve allowed a wide open offensive rebound.

MSU trusted they had options...Duke didn’t.

Zion and Barrett were so good and proved it all year...hard not to go to them. Just may have been the difference had we been able to use them as decoys instead of 1v1.

Never know...IMO Duke had amazing talent but lost their team over the season

 

[Mpm277]

I'm going to get crap for saying this from some, and maybe rightfully so - perhaps I'm still just a little emotional with the loss and will change my tune later - but looking back at this year... In regards to offense we had two really good players, two others that were occasionally good sometimes, and no one else very good. Outside of our freshman, who would you consider actually good? Some may have a good game here and there. But where would the rest of our players rank individually in the ACC? You get to put a team together drawing from the entire ACC - you picking up anyone from Duke that's not a freshman?

Zion and RJ were our two good players. Tre and Cam were consistently inconsistent. You don't get much offense from literally anyone else on our roster. K knew that and that's why we had no bench. We never got that consistent third scorer.

 

[SwatX1]

I'm going to get crap for saying this from some, and maybe rightfully so - perhaps I'm still just a little emotional with the loss and will change my tune later - but looking back at this year... In regards to offense we had two really good players, two others that were occasionally good sometimes, and no one else very good. Outside of our freshman, who would you consider actually good? Some may have a good game here and there. But where would the rest of our players rank individually in the ACC? You get to put a team together drawing from the entire ACC - you picking up anyone from Duke that's not a freshman?

Zion and RJ were our two good players. Tre and Cam were consistently inconsistent. You don't get much offense from literally anyone else on our roster. K knew that and that's why we had no bench. We never got that consistent third scorer.

Can’t find anything to argue with in there. This team really struggled to shoot the ball outide of 10 feet. Still, a really fun team to watch and I still can’t stand the thought of no Zion next year

 

[krzyzewskiville]

I'm going to get crap for saying this from some, and maybe rightfully so - perhaps I'm still just a little emotional with the loss and will change my tune later - but looking back at this year... In regards to offense we had two really good players, two others that were occasionally good sometimes, and no one else very good. Outside of our freshman, who would you consider actually good? Some may have a good game here and there. But where would the rest of our players rank individually in the ACC? You get to put a team together drawing from the entire ACC - you picking up anyone from Duke that's not a freshman?

Zion and RJ were our two good players. Tre and Cam were consistently inconsistent. You don't get much offense from literally anyone else on our roster. K knew that and that's why we had no bench. We never got that consistent third scorer.

I actually think you’ve hit the root of the point. My best friend, all season long would give me crap because “Duke has three top six picks, they shouldn’t lose a game.” And this is a friend who played college basketball and coaches.

But I think that comment, is several layers thick. First, anyone that watched Duke all year long knew how inconsistent Cam was. We basically had two incredible players, a third that you didn’t know what you were going to get, and the remainder of our team were great defenders, point guards, or role players. We had one pure shooter-which is incredibly un-Duke like.

So as good as Zion and RJ were, in games were Cam wasn’t scoring and we relied on those two for points, it really becomes relatively simple (not easy-simple) to defend us. You saw that recipe a lot in the tournament as teams just packed the paint and laid off of our perimeter players.

There were many times I thought how obscure it was to have one of the most talented teams in Duke history and yet be so one-dimensional as a team. The dichotomy of this year‘s team was fascinating to say the least. If we would’ve had a couple of consistent spot shooters, it may have made all the difference in the world.

 

[chov1125]

I actually think you’ve hit the root of the point. My best friend, all season long would give me crap because “Duke has three top six picks, they shouldn’t lose a game.” And this is a friend who played college basketball and coaches.

But I think that comment, is several layers thick. First, anyone that watched Duke all year long knew how inconsistent Cam was. We basically had two incredible players, a third that you didn’t know what you were going to get, and the remainder of our team were great defenders, point guards, or role players. We had one pure shooter-which is incredibly un-Duke like.

So as good as Zion and RJ were, in games were Cam wasn’t scoring and we relied on those two for points, it really becomes relatively simple (not easy-simple) to defend us. You saw that recipe a lot in the tournament as teams just packed the paint and laid off of our perimeter players.

There were many times I thought how obscure it was to have one of the most talented teams in Duke history and yet be so one-dimensional as a team. The dichotomy of this year‘s team was fascinating to say the least. If we would’ve had a couple of consistent spot shooters, it may have made all the difference in the world.

Imagine how good we could have been with a Kyle Guy like player to stretch the interior defense.

 

[FearTheBeard_rivals208808]

Anybody else avoiding ESPN like the plague?

 

[RanDEVILman]

I look at Sunday as...close the gym, no coaches allowed, we beat MSU by 10 or more points, we were just that much more talented.
MSU had to manufacture a lot of points, and Izzo was brilliant. I went back and checked, and they did score after EVERY SINGLE timeout. Not only that, they scored almost every possession following the stupid every 4 minute TV timeout.

We took 3 timeouts, guess how many turnovers followed those timeouts? 3.
Then the final timeout resulted in a play that I think was fine and not willing to complain about, but still a very predictable set- give RJ the ball and let him go left.

Izzo had our number, no coincidence that within the flow of the game (mainly the stretches between the breaks,) we handled MSU easily.

I have been defending Ks coaching all over this board. Not just because he’s K, but I mean...yeah that’s part of it. But also because a lot of people are claiming he doesn’t coach. Now what you said makes more sense than that. Saying Izzo beat him in certain scenarios is true and fair and gives Izzo a lot of the credit. Saying K didn’t coach, like some are claiming, is crazy.

Kville said on this thread earlier, but the places Ks coaching showed up in different areas all year. This team wasn’t great at set plays. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t coach. They were coached to play team defense and run the floor and look for certain mismatches and rebound etc. This team was very well coached just not the same as some others. That’s been my problem with all this. Basically you have to say K is flawless or terrible it seems, when really the truth is he has always been neither. Very good for a very long time to the extent that he is the GOat. But this washed up crap is stupid. He got outcoached in the 80s, 90s, 00s, and this decade too. But he’s also done his fair share of outcoaching.

 

[madrussian]

i would say it was a good season and a lot of fun to watch. We won the ACC championship and came up one possession short again of a final 4.

3 things really hurt this team

1. Freaky injuries. Tre's shoulder injury, his shooting really never recovered. Plus Zions shoe blowout - it really affected how the team jelled i think.

2. Cam's sudden knee injury ? what as that about?

3. The lack of any consistent scoring ability from the bench. Jack White filled that role early - yet he then lost his shot and then got injured.

 

[Longtimeuserbannedyearsago]

i would say it was a good season and a lot of fun to watch. We won the ACC championship and came up one possession short again of a final 4.

3 things really hurt this team

1. Freaky injuries. Tre's shoulder injury, his shooting really never recovered. Plus Zions shoe blowout - it really affected how the team jelled i think.

2. Cam's sudden knee injury ? what as that about?

3. The lack of any consistent scoring ability from the bench. Jack White filled that role early - yet he then lost his shot and then got injured.

Duke was closer to being out opening weekend than final four.

Duke pushed the ball early in the season and looked unstoppable at times. Duke walked the ball up in the tourney, weird?

 

[RanDEVILman]

Duke was closer to being out opening weekend than final four.

Duke pushed the ball early in the season and looked unstoppable at times. Duke walked the ball up in the tourney, weird?

A lot of teams still playing right now were close to being out in the first weekend too. Maybe not as close as Duke, but in the NCAAT that kind of "horseshoe" argument is straight up meaningless. Win/lose by 1 or 25 it doesn't really matter at that point. Thats why I've been saying judging coaches (no matter how good they are) on losing in the NCAAT is unfair. Bennett just lost last year in round 1. Now hes in the FF. Did he just learn how to coach over the off season? The NCAAT is as close to a crap shoot as we get in modern sports, which is what makes it so much fun and so tough too. But man, those years you win it all it really feels special every single time!

 

[Quavarius]

We lost two games fully healthy by 2 and one point respectively.

Enjoyed this group like no other!

 

[Hurley22]

Duke was closer to being out opening weekend than final four.

Duke pushed the ball early in the season and looked unstoppable at times. Duke walked the ball up in the tourney, weird?

We really didn't "push" the ball early in the season..we got out if transition off of turnovers. Once teams got tape on Duke they understood that taking care of the ball was key. Teams were very careful down the stretch with passing lanes and who brought the ball up the floor, especially if Tre was gaurding them.

 

[Quavarius]

We really didn't "push" the ball early in the season..we got out if transition off of turnovers. Once teams got tape on Duke they understood that taking care of the ball was key. Teams were very careful down the stretch with passing lanes and who brought the ball up the floor, especially if Tre was gaurding them.

Correct.

Also, another adjustment teams made against us was having their other guard bring the ball up instead of the PG Tre was guarding. That allowed them to get into their offense easier and it took away Tre’s ability to get steals in the back court. It was a great move by opposing coaches.

 

[christophero]

My first post since the loss. A tough one for sure. Watched it at the local sports bar and seemingly the entire bar started clapping when we lost. Salt in the wound. We struggled putting teams away and it caught up with us. Still two straight Elite Eights is where an elite program should be, although it hurt to get that close to the final four and not make it. For me the early round exits are the toughest to take. Thank you to Vrank for stepping up when needed, and to Zion and RJ and Cam for super seasons. We need Tre back to be elite imo but I can't blame him if he goes. If Tre goes we are probably a 2nd round/Sweet 16 team and that's okay. IF Tre comes back we'll have great veteran leadership. Would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[bullettoothtony]

It is colossally disappointing that we haven't made a Final Four the last 3 years given the amount of talent we've had.

I think Coach K remains the best coach in the country in terms of recruiting, motivating and communicating.

I don't think he's the best from an x's and o's standpoint. I think he's employing strategies that aren't putting our team in the best position to win national championships.

On offense, this whole thing about Coach K letting players make plays has made us overly reliant on iso and hero ball. Every year it seems like 2 or 3 guys are identified as the "star" players, and everyone else essentially becomes a role player. Everything goes through those 2 or 3 guys and it makes our offense too stagnant at crucial times against good teams. Every player on the floor should be regarded as an offensive weapon... that way the ball is constantly moving in the search for a good shot being replaced by a better one. There's way too much standing around in our half court sets too often. And our role players, because their roles are limited... they're not getting better, their games aren't evolving. How much improvement did you really see from, for example, Gary Trent, Cam Reddish, Marques Bolden, Javin, and a host of bench players? Is that all on them or does the coaching staff share some responsibility?

Defensively, I still think it's a major miscalculation for Coach K to continue to employ a deny defense over a gap defense. At least 3 of the Final Four teams utilize gap defenses. It's why Virginia will continue to "win" the ACC regular season and get 1 seeds in the NCAA Tournament. Because gap defenses work.

I'm not saying the sky is falling or our program is broken, none of that nonsense. I just think that poor strategy--at times-- is too often preventing us from maximizing our potential, i.e. going to Final Fours and winning national championships. 2 Final Fours in the last 15 years. Given our talent level, particularly these past 3 years, that is unacceptable.

 

[dukiejay]

We really didn't "push" the ball early in the season..we got out if transition off of turnovers. Once teams got tape on Duke they understood that taking care of the ball was key. Teams were very careful down the stretch with passing lanes and who brought the ball up the floor, especially if Tre was gaurding them.

Good post. I was maybe watching something else, but I don't recall us pushing the ball much, either. We just created a lot more turnovers. It's still scary to me that we didn't have a single point in transition vs. MSU. Ugh...

Count me in the group who thinks it was a really good season. Sure....a golden opportunity missed by not advancing further, but it was a fun season, nonetheless.

 

[Mac9192]

It is colossally disappointing that we haven't made a Final Four the last 3 years given the amount of talent we've had.

I think Coach K remains the best coach in the country in terms of recruiting, motivating and communicating.

I don't think he's the best from an x's and o's standpoint. I think he's employing strategies that aren't putting our team in the best position to win national championships.

On offense, this whole thing about Coach K letting players make plays has made us overly reliant on iso and hero ball. Every year it seems like 2 or 3 guys are identified as the "star" players, and everyone else essentially becomes a role player. Everything goes through those 2 or 3 guys and it makes our offense too stagnant at crucial times against good teams. Every player on the floor should be regarded as an offensive weapon... that way the ball is constantly moving in the search for a good shot being replaced by a better one. There's way too much standing around in our half court sets too often. And our role players, because their roles are limited... they're not getting better, their games aren't evolving. How much improvement did you really see from, for example, Gary Trent, Cam Reddish, Marques Bolden, Javin, and a host of bench players? Is that all on them or does the coaching staff share some responsibility?

Defensively, I still think it's a major miscalculation for Coach K to continue to employ a deny defense over a gap defense. At least 3 of the Final Four teams utilize gap defenses. It's why Virginia will continue to "win" the ACC regular season and get 1 seeds in the NCAA Tournament. Because gap defenses work.

I'm not saying the sky is falling or our program is broken, none of that nonsense. I just think that poor strategy--at times-- is too often preventing us from maximizing our potential, i.e. going to Final Fours and winning national championships. 2 Final Fours in the last 15 years. Given our talent level, particularly these past 3 years, that is unacceptable.

Great post. We’ve gotten as far as we have the last 2 seasons by having a lot of talent, but we can’t get over the hump cause we get beat by a better “team.”
Sad, but that’s on K. If we are truly honest, we started in Canada depending on 2 guys, we lost March 31 riding those same 2 guys.

 

[Quavarius]

It is colossally disappointing that we haven't made a Final Four the last 3 years given the amount of talent we've had.

I think Coach K remains the best coach in the country in terms of recruiting, motivating and communicating.

I don't think he's the best from an x's and o's standpoint. I think he's employing strategies that aren't putting our team in the best position to win national championships.

On offense, this whole thing about Coach K letting players make plays has made us overly reliant on iso and hero ball. Every year it seems like 2 or 3 guys are identified as the "star" players, and everyone else essentially becomes a role player. Everything goes through those 2 or 3 guys and it makes our offense too stagnant at crucial times against good teams. Every player on the floor should be regarded as an offensive weapon... that way the ball is constantly moving in the search for a good shot being replaced by a better one. There's way too much standing around in our half court sets too often. And our role players, because their roles are limited... they're not getting better, their games aren't evolving. How much improvement did you really see from, for example, Gary Trent, Cam Reddish, Marques Bolden, Javin, and a host of bench players? Is that all on them or does the coaching staff share some responsibility?

Defensively, I still think it's a major miscalculation for Coach K to continue to employ a deny defense over a gap defense. At least 3 of the Final Four teams utilize gap defenses. It's why Virginia will continue to "win" the ACC regular season and get 1 seeds in the NCAA Tournament. Because gap defenses work.

I'm not saying the sky is falling or our program is broken, none of that nonsense. I just think that poor strategy--at times-- is too often preventing us from maximizing our potential, i.e. going to Final Fours and winning national championships. 2 Final Fours in the last 15 years. Given our talent level, particularly these past 3 years, that is unacceptable.

Virginia’s gap defense just barely got them into their first Final Four since the early 1980s.

 

[madrussian]

Its funny. Take the '15, '18 and '19 squad and rank them. Who do you think was the best overall? The best defensive team? The best offensive team.

I think I take this squad. But the intangibles went against this crew. Injuries, tournament setup.

The tournament is brutal and unfair. The '15 squad had a nice tourney setup. They took advantage.

I think this squad had a tough tourney draw. A tough 8/9 matchup, A VT squad that suddenly was a lot better than their seed and a battle tested MSU team. Heck there were 2 and 3 seeds that had an easier path.

The saddest part of the loss is not that we don't get a national championship, its that we don't get to see Zion put on a Duke jersey again.*


* = OK - I stole that from K's 1994 presser when we lost to Arkansas. Coach said that the saddest part of this game was that he would never see Grant Hill put on a Duke jersey again.

- Well stated .

 

[WI#1Dukie22]

Honestly in a 7 game series I might take the 18 team. All the weapons, let’s not forget how amazing the Bagley/Carter combo was!
Carter might be the most under rated/under appreciated player in a long time.

As been mentioned - if 19 has Gary Trent we are truly unbeatable. Zion and this group got a major disservice not having a legit deep ball stroker that we have always had!

 

[pisgah101]

Honestly in a 7 game series I might take the 18 team. All the weapons, let’s not forget how amazing the Bagley/Carter combo was!
Carter might be the most under rated/under appreciated player in a long time.

As been mentioned - if 19 has Gary Trent we are truly unbeatable. Zion and this group got a major disservice not having a legit deep ball stroker that we have always had!

That group played no D and hated each other

 

[Longtimeuserbannedyearsago]

That group played no D and hated each other

Didn’t help when in crunch time coach went to a 41% shooter instead of a 61% or 56%. Hmm sounds like this year’s crunch times with a 45% shooter instead of a 69% shooter.

 

[christophero]

The 15 team was the best. The 2010 team caught a LOT of breaks. (Not the question I know). The guy I really wanted back was Frank Jackson. He would have killed it this year. We would not have lost a game.

 

[FearTheBeard_rivals208808]

The 15 team was the best. The 2010 team caught a LOT of breaks. (Not the question I know). The guy I really wanted back was Frank Jackson. He would have killed it this year. We would not have lost a game.

I think a SR Luke Kennard would have done more for this team than Frank. That’s not a knock on Frank. Luke’s shooting is what this team needed.

 

[christophero]

A senior Luke Kennard. Sigh. 2 titles in 2 years. Although if he won one he'd def. be gone.

 

[nets on nets on nets]

A senior Luke Kennard. Sigh. 2 titles in 2 years. Although if he won one he'd def. be gone.

Luke was supposed to be a 4 year guy too. He would have been PERFECT for the past team.

 

[christophero]

Any one of those guys coming back would be huge. Duval and Tre would have been ridiculous.

 

[bullettoothtony]

Virginia’s gap defense just barely got them into their first Final Four since the early 1980s.

Specious argument I'm afraid.

It's the job of the coach to employ strategies that put the players in the best position to be successful. Bennett is doing that.

Let me frame the argument a different way... do you honestly think Virginia would be achieving these results if they didn't utilize the packline defense? You think there are other strategies that would yield better results for them?

 

[1991greywildcat]

My first post since the loss. A tough one for sure. Watched it at the local sports bar and seemingly the entire bar started clapping when we lost. Salt in the wound. We struggled putting teams away and it caught up with us. Still two straight Elite Eights is where an elite program should be, although it hurt to get that close to the final four and not make it. For me the early round exits are the toughest to take. Thank you to Vrank for stepping up when needed, and to Zion and RJ and Cam for super seasons. We need Tre back to be elite imo but I can't blame him if he goes. If Tre goes we are probably a 2nd round/Sweet 16 team and that's okay. IF Tre comes back we'll have great veteran leadership. Would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.

Have always said the same whenever it comes to Kentucky, but sophomores is not veteran leadership. Teams need players that has been in the fire a couple of years, not just one mediocre sophomore that is back because he could not find favorable draft status..

 

[FearTheBeard_rivals208808]

Have always said the same whenever it comes to Kentucky, but sophomores is not veteran leadership. Teams need players that has been in the fire a couple of years, not just one mediocre sophomore that is back because he could not find favorable draft status..

Tre is far from mediocre. He needs to improve his shot, but he was a top PG in his class for a reason.

 

[1991greywildcat]

Tre is far from mediocre. He needs to improve his shot, but he was a top PG in his class for a reason.

Did not necessarily throw that at Tre Jones, but you understand my point.