Fire Huggins
- Thread starter EERs 3:16
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While watching tonight’s game, the thought running through my mind every 2 minutes was: Shouldn’t a Hall of Fame coach be able to recruit bigs with basketball skills who can actually contribute something positive?
Huggins can stay as long as he wishes. He's one of the best X's and O's coaches in the country. He's earned it.
However, the same cannot be said for his assistants.
They have gotten old. They have proven they can't develop quality players anymore. Now, they've shown they can't recruit them either.
For one, the lack of players in the NBA is telling. In 14 years of coaching at WVU, and over 40 overall, there isn't a single "name" that Huggins et. al can throw out to a highly prized recruit to convince them to come here. A Hall of Fame coach shouldn't be having that amount of problems. Without at least some of that caliber of talent, winning consistently or winning big is next to impossible.
Second, our "bigs" have been marginal for a long time now. Other than Konate (and maybe Oscar), in 14 years, what big has been an above-the-rim type of player. Non-athletic, no quickness, six-inch vertical, putting the ball on the floor players shooting hook shots from below the rim for over 10 years now. Europe, here we come. Scrappy rebounders, that's about the best that can be said.
Third, haven't had a guard known for any offensive prowess since the Mazzulla, Butler, and Ruoff days. Carter had the defensive prowess. But who after that? Some streaky shooters here and there along the way but a team lifter? Someone who can hit a bucket when it matters? That Buddy Heild, Mac McClung type of player has avoided us like the plague.
Or maybe they haven't? Maybe they've been here all along and we just can't develop their talents and skills?
I don't know. But I do know this. WVU has been going downhill for several years now. Press Virginia hid it but the rule changes to that exposed the wounds we've been trying to put band-aids on for years. Now, the wounds are too deep. Too many. Malaise is rampant. Gangrene is starting to set in.
So, it's time for some tough choices. We've got to amputate some dead limbs to save the body. Before it's too late.
However, the same cannot be said for his assistants.
They have gotten old. They have proven they can't develop quality players anymore. Now, they've shown they can't recruit them either.
For one, the lack of players in the NBA is telling. In 14 years of coaching at WVU, and over 40 overall, there isn't a single "name" that Huggins et. al can throw out to a highly prized recruit to convince them to come here. A Hall of Fame coach shouldn't be having that amount of problems. Without at least some of that caliber of talent, winning consistently or winning big is next to impossible.
Second, our "bigs" have been marginal for a long time now. Other than Konate (and maybe Oscar), in 14 years, what big has been an above-the-rim type of player. Non-athletic, no quickness, six-inch vertical, putting the ball on the floor players shooting hook shots from below the rim for over 10 years now. Europe, here we come. Scrappy rebounders, that's about the best that can be said.
Third, haven't had a guard known for any offensive prowess since the Mazzulla, Butler, and Ruoff days. Carter had the defensive prowess. But who after that? Some streaky shooters here and there along the way but a team lifter? Someone who can hit a bucket when it matters? That Buddy Heild, Mac McClung type of player has avoided us like the plague.
Or maybe they haven't? Maybe they've been here all along and we just can't develop their talents and skills?
I don't know. But I do know this. WVU has been going downhill for several years now. Press Virginia hid it but the rule changes to that exposed the wounds we've been trying to put band-aids on for years. Now, the wounds are too deep. Too many. Malaise is rampant. Gangrene is starting to set in.
So, it's time for some tough choices. We've got to amputate some dead limbs to save the body. Before it's too late.
What a summary, excellent Sadly.
But something you reluctantly
"glossed over" is the cost of Athletics.
The price of doing business - comes with severe sacrifice.
?For example, what if bBob is USING the State of West Virginia to the tune of $4.15 per year every year, he works?
$4.15 million per year is a sad testimony.
If bBob was a true Mountaineer, he'd donate 1/2 his salary to Charity,
a West Virginia Charity for example.
Donate to West Virginia University.
Economics of Sports.
You don't get those types of offensive threats when the head coach's first, middle, and last priority in recruiting, nevermind playing, a player, is that player's willingness to run through a brick wall, launch head first into the stands for a loose ball, contend a shot at the end of regulation with the opponent down 10, or full out sprint down the court in a hopeless effort to defend an opponent cherry picking with a 40 foot head start.
Then you have the little issue that Huggins either refuses to embrace an offense scheme that offensive players enjoy and thrive in, or that he's incapable.
Buddy Heild, Mac McClung, Frank Mason, Devonte Graham, and Jarret Culver don't look at WVU for many reasons. One reason no one ever seems to acknowledge is that those types of players - players who move the needle for a program - don't want to play for a coach like Huggins. The simple fact of the matter is that Huggins is not a fun coach play for, either in temperament or coaching philosophy in general. Deny it all you want. The proof is here. Want to know how I know, and why we should all know, that elite players don't want to play for Huggins? BECAUSE NONE EVER COME HERE.
Sickens me to see fools say Fire Huggins but it is expected from the bandwagon jumpers. I will agree Huggins has struggled coaching this team. But make no mistake, the problem is lack of talent of the players, the mix of players on the team and the development of the players. All of that is the responsibility of the coach. It is a tough business.
Even though I love Huggins dating back to his playing days, I do have a problem with his rotation of players during the game with this type of team. The team isn't good but pulling players off the court as often as he does isn't doing the team or player any good. We aren't going to beat Kansas very often with this type of team but develop some of the players by having a more routine rotation. I don't know exactly what went wrong with Oscar but I guarantee him getting pulled all the time before getting in a routine his first year and a half before leaving was a big reason he soured on his WVU experience. Coaches and players both need to learn to adapt and Huggs has adapted in the past over many things. But he hasn't in this aspect.
Even though I love Huggins dating back to his playing days, I do have a problem with his rotation of players during the game with this type of team. The team isn't good but pulling players off the court as often as he does isn't doing the team or player any good. We aren't going to beat Kansas very often with this type of team but develop some of the players by having a more routine rotation. I don't know exactly what went wrong with Oscar but I guarantee him getting pulled all the time before getting in a routine his first year and a half before leaving was a big reason he soured on his WVU experience. Coaches and players both need to learn to adapt and Huggs has adapted in the past over many things. But he hasn't in this aspect.
I'm not saying fire Huggins, but when you pay a guy this much money you expect to be better than the worst team/doormat in the conference. There obviously is something very, very wrong with this program and changes need to be made to ensure that better players are put on the court next year. Status quo is not the answer. We've seen that. So if a major shakeup among the assistants is the answer, then let's do it. If cheating in recruiting, which is now legal with NIL, is the answer, then let's be the dirtiest player in the game. Whatever can be done, we need to do it because, well, this program is broken and needs fixed. A major change in how, and who does what, is needed.
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Who here wants Lyons making another decision for our athletic programs? I’ll pass. Huggins will get it fixed, but I agree with the sentiment that something needs done. Even our tourney teams recently have basically only made it there and nothing more.
We made the tourney last year. Might have made a deep run in 2020 until it was cancelled. This year has been bad, I don't disagree. But where is the "years of stagnation" you refer to? Please, stop.
You do realize that Calipari expects/recruits the same style from his guys, don't you? Of course you don't.
EDIT: Let me add these coaches as well Painter (Purdue), Cronin (UCLA).......so what you say about his "recruiting" is wrong.
You defend Huggins like he's a 19 year old doing his old high school a solid by coaching the freshman team instead of a "HOF" coach, making 4 million a year, and purported to be the best coach WVU will ever get.
I'm sure those coaches expect a lot, God knows they get more out of their players than Huggins has in 15 years here. Calipari even took a Huggins castoff, a "supposed" All-American, according to Huggins, and turned him into the favorite for National Player of Year.
But I wonder if they look at a player like Gabe, who turns our offensive sets into 4 vs 5 on every possession, plays dumber than hell, but also hustles like hell, and expect to build a team around him. Of course they don't. They expect their players to give it everything they've got, but if you can't shoot, dribble, pass, see the floor, have a high school level IQ, you aren't getting a scholarship, let alone be a central cog on the team.
The difference WVU and the other the hard-nosed teams is that WVU is ONLY hard-nosed. The other hard-nosed teams can also do other things...like make a layup, run an offense, make a foul shot. You know, the basics. On a scale of 1-10, WVU might be a 8.5 on the tenacity scale. The others might be a 7.5. But WVU is a 4 everywhere else, the rest are still in the 7s.
I'm sure those coaches expect a lot, God knows they get more out of their players than Huggins has in 15 years here. Calipari even took a Huggins castoff, a "supposed" All-American, according to Huggins, and turned him into the favorite for National Player of Year.
But I wonder if they look at a player like Gabe, who turns our offensive sets into 4 vs 5 on every possession, plays dumber than hell, but also hustles like hell, and expect to build a team around him. Of course they don't. They expect their players to give it everything they've got, but if you can't shoot, dribble, pass, see the floor, have a high school level IQ, you aren't getting a scholarship, let alone be a central cog on the team.
The difference WVU and the other the hard-nosed teams is that WVU is ONLY hard-nosed. The other hard-nosed teams can also do other things...like make a layup, run an offense, make a foul shot. You know, the basics. On a scale of 1-10, WVU might be a 8.5 on the tenacity scale. The others might be a 7.5. But WVU is a 4 everywhere else, the rest are still in the 7s.
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Defend him? So we made the tourney last year, and lost in the 2nd round hot-shooting Syracuse team, and the year before we would have had another tourney appearance with a possible deeper run. In 2018-19, that was a season worse than this one. But we won 26 games in 2017-2018, and 28 wins in 2016-17.......and I could keep going but it won't matter.
So why weren't you complaining about those "hard-nosed" recruits in the good years? You reserve your disdain for the bad years (which have only been a couple).
Now 89-85 in Big 12 since coming to wvu. That adds up to more than a couple bad...or mediocre...years. Overall record padded with give mes. I personally like Huggs...but team has been...and still is...heading in the wrong direction.
At least we're not meeetchicken. What an embarrassment of a coach and a university to not IMMEDIATELY suspend him in a perfunctory move before termination.
He was given the keys to a Corvette program, with as big a budget and famous school name as any coach could hope for, and immediately drove head-on to a light pole. What a pathetic joke.
He was given the keys to a Corvette program, with as big a budget and famous school name as any coach could hope for, and immediately drove head-on to a light pole. What a pathetic joke.
…. Not when all the quality bigs get Nike shoe money and a promised shoe deal if they get drafted into the NBA.
This has been going on for years and now you have to add the NIL / boosters joining in to keep their school stocked with all Americans. WVU, like most of the rest of the non-blue bloods will just fall further behind.
This has been going on for years and now you have to add the NIL / boosters joining in to keep their school stocked with all Americans. WVU, like most of the rest of the non-blue bloods will just fall further behind.
No response to my destroying your claim of Huggs being in a downfall for years?
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Destroying by saying that Calipari recruits tough players, too?
WVU has been on a downtrend since Carter left. One over-seeded, first weekend embarrassing loss doesn't negate that.
Programs in good positions don't let one player moving on completely demolish the team. Losing McBride meant WVU lost its best player. Having a less talented team this year shouldn't be surprise. But to be this inept is inexcusable if you're wanting to make the claim that everything is all right. McBride, and Culver to an extent, were bandaids on a bigger problem. The proof is what you've seen on the court in nearly every game. The team is unrecognizable from what it was year ago, all from the departure of ONE player. A program in good shape should weather that storm much better than what we're seeing.
And if the new game is teams resetting rosters year to year due to the portal, then Huggins damn well better earn his paycheck and cash in on transferring talent, and not role players from Mid-Majors. If WVU can't get transfers from other P5 schools, a hard look needs to be given to the program. Why do none of those players want to come here? And it's not just the assistants, who for some, are completely open to criticism and calls for firing.
Will you respond to any of this with anything other than snark? Of course you won't.
We have a bad year, and you pounce. We have a good year, and you are quiet.
This post proves that you have ZERO understanding of sports or being a coach or running a program. We lost our best TWO players (and no, not Oscar) in McBride and Culver early. It is difficult to prepare for the unknown, and it's not like you can just offer scholarships when you don't have them because the players are underclassmen and may/may not stick around. So when those two announced they were gone, it was transfer portal or bust to replace them.
The fact is that you want WVU basketball to win 28+ games each year, get to the Final Four, or fire the coach.
What was the staff to do when Culver waited until the final day to announce he was signing with an agent and not returning? Any P5 bigs in the portal were long gone and any sane person knew that Culver was not ready for the NBA.
The only ones left were G5 bigs who are going from playing Horizon or Sunbelt level to being dropped into the best conference in the country. Kind of shows doesn’t it.
The only ones left were G5 bigs who are going from playing Horizon or Sunbelt level to being dropped into the best conference in the country. Kind of shows doesn’t it.
I want intellectual consistency and honesty. Don't tell me in one breath to be content with a Sweet 16, an implosion, followed by recovery year, then a 2nd round NCAA loss...lather, rinse, repeat, then in the next breath tell me that we have a HOF coach, one of the best to ever do it, a coach WVU will never surpass.
If we have the one of the best basketball coaches in the sport's history, I expect more. If the expectations are so low, perhaps it should admitted that the head coach is simply adequate...as our program seems to be in the eyes of many of his militant defenders.
If we have the one of the best basketball coaches in the sport's history, I expect more. If the expectations are so low, perhaps it should admitted that the head coach is simply adequate...as our program seems to be in the eyes of many of his militant defenders.
Blame the kids today and the society that created them. The coach isn’t the problem. Kids today are taught early on to NOT expect discipline. Add in the recent ability to now transfer in the portal, coaches don’t even try to discipline them. Because they’ll leave (see Tshwiebwe). And you can’t blame them. Now if they’re a white coach, they have to worry about fake racism claims against them. Teach your kids discipline and they won’t become the coaches problem.
2012-13 - 13-19 (6-13) 8th
2013-14 - 17-16 (9-9) 6th
2014-15 - 25-10 (11-7) 4th
2015-16 - 26-9 (13-5) 2nd
2016-17 - 28-9 (12-6) 2nd
2017-18 - 26-11 (11-7) 2nd
2018-19 - 15-21 (4-14) 10th
2019-20 - 21-10 (9-9) 3rd
2020-21 - 19-10 (11-6) 3rd
2021-22 - 14-12 (3-10) currently 10th
Only 2 teams make it to the final. High percentages usually has one of the top 4 seeds in it.
Two or more No. 1 seeds have made the Final Four in 18 NCAA tournaments (51.4 percent of the time).
Since the NCAA Tournament field expanded to 64 teams in 1985, there have been 57 No. 1 seeds to reach the Final Four. That means an average of 1.62 teams each year are No. 1 seeds.
NCAA did not seed teams until 1979 when they had 40 teams.
He wants consistency, but doesn't want to look at what consistency is. I see more 2nd and 3rd than I do anything else. Hmmm.......wonder what he'd call that? Luck?
Two things can be true at once. Huggins has an impressive resume and has done great things at WVU. Huggins is also long in the tooth and has had 2 really bad seasons in the last 4 years barring some kind of miracle to end this year.
In 2018-2019 where we had Culver, Haley, and Matthews coming back and 2 highly regarded recruits in McBride and Oscar coming in. There was reason for hope looking forward then. Looking forward now with the talent returning and the prospective recruits coming in, it's more far more bleak.
Huggins does not have a great track record of bringing in transfers and immediately plugging them into key roles. So it is looking like next year may be a rebuild like 2013-2014 rather than a rebound like 2019-2020. That is concerning because Huggins will be 69 years old at the start of next season and have 40 years as a head coach. Not likely a coach at that age or with that many years experience recreates, much less exceeds, what he has already accomplished.
So he needs to be honest with himself and WVU because from this point Huggins will need a minimum of 3 seasons to even have a chance to put together a dark horse Final Four team ala 2010. If he does not think he can coach at the same level he did 10-15 years ago for 3 consecutive years until the age of 72, then he may need to consider making an exit within the next 3 years for the good of the program.
In 2018-2019 where we had Culver, Haley, and Matthews coming back and 2 highly regarded recruits in McBride and Oscar coming in. There was reason for hope looking forward then. Looking forward now with the talent returning and the prospective recruits coming in, it's more far more bleak.
Huggins does not have a great track record of bringing in transfers and immediately plugging them into key roles. So it is looking like next year may be a rebuild like 2013-2014 rather than a rebound like 2019-2020. That is concerning because Huggins will be 69 years old at the start of next season and have 40 years as a head coach. Not likely a coach at that age or with that many years experience recreates, much less exceeds, what he has already accomplished.
So he needs to be honest with himself and WVU because from this point Huggins will need a minimum of 3 seasons to even have a chance to put together a dark horse Final Four team ala 2010. If he does not think he can coach at the same level he did 10-15 years ago for 3 consecutive years until the age of 72, then he may need to consider making an exit within the next 3 years for the good of the program.