Who said I don’t know what we are? This is a top-3 talented NU team this century — and it’s still not good enough to win games, because the B1G is now the deepest, toughest league in the country. The bounces that fell our way early this year aren’t coming through now, and if we want to win, we need to play cleanly and have a little luck, neither of which have been happening.
First-half thread for NU vs Purdue
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Who said I don’t know what we are? This is a top-3 talented NU team this century — and it’s still not good enough to win games, because the B1G is now the deepest, toughest league in the country. The bounces that fell our way early this year aren’t coming through now, and if we want to win, we need to play cleanly and have a little luck, neither of which have been happening.
In the end, defense was not great. But Purdue has 68 pts with a minute to go. It’s not a disaster either. The disaster is our offense. It’s painfully immature and with a style of play that does not fit our strengths.
Kudos to CC for finally changing the starting lineup and minute allocation. But none of that will make up for our offensive inability
Talent does not equal production. They don’t play like a top three talented team. I am not saying they are not but whatever talent they have is not translating on the court. That is coaching.
We played them tough today, including decent D and a lot of grit, despite what many have said. They are ranked #24 and on their home court. Wish we could win, but expectations were we would not. They have better players, including four freshman in double figures. As the season progresses, the cream always rises to the top. I don’t personally think a coaching change alone will get us much better players AND a much better coach, but also hard to imagine us beating Purdue in the near future. I’ll keep trying to stay positive against the swarm of board negativity and hope for some future recruiting breakthroughs despite the odds given our history.
Here’s a comp for us: MN. Because I do follow them as I have a lot of family in MN.
Their talent is not better than ours. They have an all B1G guy in Carr. A decent B1G player in Kalscheur who is having a poor season. They rely on transfers from Utah/Western MI/Drake to round their starting 5. Transfers have occasional good games, struggle a lot of the time, adapting to playing in the B1G. Bench is definitely not better than ours. One freshman contributes in a limited capacity.
Coach is not seen by fan base as a good coach. Not unlike Collins.
Yet, they beat ranked teams on occasion and are still on the bubble to make the tourney. And I’d bet money they’ll continue to out perform us.
Where are our wins? The “we played #24” does no explain losing every time. If we are decent, We are supposed to steal 1 in 3 games from a ranked team. Otherwise, our quality gap is really enormous.
1. I wish we had freshmen like Purdue’s freshmen.
2. 2-0 against Indiana would be fun. Let’s do that.
3. I have no idea what this team’s identity is supposed to be. They seem disorganized all over the place.
4. Gosh, 2017 was fun. Mc must be wondering what’s happened to this program he was supposed to build.
5. Ugh.
2. 2-0 against Indiana would be fun. Let’s do that.
3. I have no idea what this team’s identity is supposed to be. They seem disorganized all over the place.
4. Gosh, 2017 was fun. Mc must be wondering what’s happened to this program he was supposed to build.
5. Ugh.
Their talent is better. Just think back to Amir Coffey. Couldn’t play for NU because of academics despite his sister being one of our all-time greats. We don’t get as good talent - simple as that.
just maybe they were overrated by the evaluators. And no added coaching can fix that. Also where is the 2nd half thread? Game has been over for well over an hour. Maybe no-one wants to participate. Is that it?
I’m not a huge fan of Stephen Bardo, but he said it well in the MSU-Nebraska game. Both Nebraska and NU are quality teams and are not far from success. They are just too inconsistent to get over the hump night after night in an extremely tough league. I think he’s right. We are not that far away. (And man, we are so much closer than in decades past. Does anyone remember how painful it was to watch NU in the past?)
Painter is such a killer coach. I wonder if he could be dragged out of West Lafayette.
According to USA Today, Izzo makes $7M. Archie Miller makes $6M (The Hoosier are getting screwed!). I wonder if you could entice Painter for $10M.
He's exactly what NU needs. He knows how to get it done without the best talent, and he's proven it regularly in the B10.
Realistically, I know he's most probably not going anywhere, but he's the guy I think about that has the slightest bit of possibility that you could drag out of the top 30 or 40 programs.
According to USA Today, Izzo makes $7M. Archie Miller makes $6M (The Hoosier are getting screwed!). I wonder if you could entice Painter for $10M.
He's exactly what NU needs. He knows how to get it done without the best talent, and he's proven it regularly in the B10.
Realistically, I know he's most probably not going anywhere, but he's the guy I think about that has the slightest bit of possibility that you could drag out of the top 30 or 40 programs.
A former Purdue player leaving a successful Purdue program to come to NU...why is that even worth discussing?
Painter is NOT leaving Purdue anytime soon. In addition to having played at Purdue and having a great relationship with the administration he has the youngest team in the Big Ten and two top 40 recruits coming next year. The following class already has a couple of really good guards too, with the likelihood of adding at least one more highly rated recruit. He'll end up getting another raise in the near future as well.
One thing Painter does very well, and something that Northwestern has not done in my opinion is to establish a program culture/identity and recruit players to that. He doesn't go after kids due to their ranking but rather good players that fit his system. Stefanovic, Edey and Gillis are good examples of this. The first two were rated at 350+ in the 247 composite and the latter well over 200 on signing day but all fit the system very well. Again my opinion but Northwestern would be best served to have a head coach who establishes an identity and recruits CONSISTENTLY to that. I'll leave it to you all to debate whether or not Collins is that guy but in my opinion I haven't yet seen it.
It was weird when he almost left for Mizzou however long ago, but I'd guess that ship has sailed and he's there for life now.
Nate Oats is my dream hire should we move on from Collins. He's from Wisconsin, and he coached in Michigan for a long time. And the Big Ten is probably an upgrade on the SEC. Maybe we could put together a package that could entice him to return to his roots. Kinda feels like the Badgers could pull him or Tony Bennett if they ever move on from Gard. Which would suck.
We're still a ways away from a coaching search, though. I wonder if the new AD will have any particular connections or ties.
You guys are a little nutty today. I guess it wasn't enough that I said this was an unrealistic idea. And my scenario is unrealistic for more reasons than just Painter's desire to leave Purdue.
But we'll ignore that only a last-minute salary increase kept him from leaving for Missouri. So obviously the man has a price.
Frankly, I can only think of one and maybe two other coaches in the top 40 or 50 programs that show even the slightest sign that you could drag them to NU - even at the ridiculous salary of $10M a year.
My post is as much of an admiration of Painter. He knows how to get it done, and like many good coaches/managers, he obviously knows the pieces he needs in his puzzle, starting with the big men ... always an imposing big man while the rest of the world pretends that 4s and 5s who can shoot from outside grow on trees.
So yes, I'd like to dream about an established coach for a moment.
Outside of my Painter dream, we're left talking about the same ol', same ol' - unproven guys who haven't done it consistently on a P5 level. That show is a rerun for me.
Don't even talk to me about a mid-major coach who doesn't have P5 experience on his resume. Maaaaaaaaaybe Moser because he worked for Majerus for so long, but that's about as far as I'd want to go with that.
I like how Moser's teams play, but I've watched Loyola enough to understand the MVC is a different beast compared to the B10. Ryan Young on Loyola would put up Krutwig numbers.
Nagy and Moser are two more rolls of the dice, and my Painter dream is an attempt to get NU much better odds.
Current Big Ten head coaches listed with amount of high-major head coaching experience prior to their current gig:
Hoiberg: 5 years, plus 4 years NBA
Turgeon: 4 years
Holtmann: 3 years
Underwood: 1 year
Miller: 6 years if you consider A-10 to be high-major, 0 years if you don't
Collins: 0 years
Ferry: 0 years
Gard: 0 years
Howard: 0 years
Izzo: 0 years
McCaffery: 0 years
Painter: 0 years
Pikiell: 0 years
Pitino: 0 years
Hoiberg: 5 years, plus 4 years NBA
Turgeon: 4 years
Holtmann: 3 years
Underwood: 1 year
Miller: 6 years if you consider A-10 to be high-major, 0 years if you don't
Collins: 0 years
Ferry: 0 years
Gard: 0 years
Howard: 0 years
Izzo: 0 years
McCaffery: 0 years
Painter: 0 years
Pikiell: 0 years
Pitino: 0 years
Not sure I had a “nutty” reaction when thinking he’d even consider coming to NU, but I understand better now that you just brought him up as a model for success. He is just that. On the other hand, I have been giving credit to Collins as establishing a fast-paced, take open shots style of play. I guess that’s not enough of a defined style to many. To me, it’s a huge difference than the prior coach, and I think was a necessary choice. He’s given us some success, a lot of good exposure, and at least future optimism. As I noted yesterday, Bardo says we’re not that far away from more success. Collins is also respected by the other experts we hear from / read, so I’m just not as convinced he should be made out to be a failure. If he fails, it’s most likely just the same decades-old story that we can’t have any high-quality coach that will make us a top team. So, I agree it’s hard to imagine any hire out there who could do dramatically better.
Good data. It’s not realistic to think we could attract a successful coach with P5 experience. Those who have that experience are either staying put/only considering blue bloodish programa or just bombed or have iffy records.
That’s just the way it is. How mighty are we that some of us don’t want mod major promising coaches. 80% of the B1G hired their current coaches from those programs. But not us, not mighty NU.
Painter is understood as a model. Getting him, or Beilein is a pipe dream. Not sure how we’d convince Moser either unless the Chicago life weighed that much in his preferences. If he declined St. John’s, he has higher ambitions than NU
Styre, I know you know better than to think NU is similar to other programs.
The one thing I believe any possible coach MUST have is some solid experience on a P6 staff. The B10 list of coaches without experience on a P6 staff before their B10 job is Pikiell, Ferry, Howard and Painter (d'oh!!).
For me, more realistic qualifications for the NU job start with head coaching experience and a long stint on a successful P6 staff.
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I generally agree with you, SD. Collins has earned the right to leg this out for another year or two. And as I've said, this is a pretty decent team on the NU scale. But I HATE the tallest midget measurement.
I'm just a bit frustrated.
I agree with you that the ideal candidate NU would be looking for would probably be a successful mid-major head coach who had been a high-major assistant in the past. But there aren't many of those, and those are the same guys all the other high-major programs go after, so finding one is a lot easier said than done.
And honestly, I don't think you have to have it. NU isn't operating with both hands tied behind its back any more when it comes to facilities and finances. Yes, the academic restrictions are always a problem, but I think Collins has conclusively shown that it's possible to recruit well enough at NU to be competitive, even if he has yet to maximize his players' talent.
I don’t know the name, but I want Tony Bennett’s top assistant. NU’s problems are that the players aren’t good enough, and that the team lacks an identity.
Give me someone who intends to hold the opposition to 40 points every night. It’s a lot easier to teach a team of average players to play hard team defense, than to teach a team of average players to become great shooters or great ball handlers or great rim attackers.
This “we’re gonna play in the 90s even though we’ll be less talented than our opponents and we don’t have reliable shooters” is such a failed approach, even if NU scored 100 against Quincy or whatever.
Let’s play hard and boring and win more than we lose.
Give me someone who intends to hold the opposition to 40 points every night. It’s a lot easier to teach a team of average players to play hard team defense, than to teach a team of average players to become great shooters or great ball handlers or great rim attackers.
This “we’re gonna play in the 90s even though we’ll be less talented than our opponents and we don’t have reliable shooters” is such a failed approach, even if NU scored 100 against Quincy or whatever.
Let’s play hard and boring and win more than we lose.
Ah, so you mean like the 2019 version of our team, which was 19th in Kenpom defense and held our B1G opposition below their season average in points in 15 of 21 games while going 4-17 in conference? Or perhaps you'd prefer the 2014 vintage, 23rd in Kenpom defense, which held opposition below their average in 15 of 20 games while going 7-13?
The Virginia one that won the National title in 2019, Tony Bennett’s 10th season of preaching the same boring-*** style of winning, having taken over a historically ‘ehh’ (not terrible, but ‘ehh’) program that had been decimated by Dave Leitao’s ineffectiveness.
James Williburn is the associate head coach. Let’s get him.
Is hiring the associate HC at UVA a better move than hiring the associate HC at Duke?
Depends how good at head coaching he turns out to be. I wouldn’t mind finding out.
What’s the percentage of success of AHC hired into power conference jobs?
I can think of a lot of names that did not work out or who the jury is still out on their worth. Just from the same farming system our coach came from there’s no clear winner in the last 20 years.
I can think of a lot of names that did not work out or who the jury is still out on their worth. Just from the same farming system our coach came from there’s no clear winner in the last 20 years.
Your list is slightly off, only Juwan Howard didn't have experience on a P6 staff, but was an NBA assistant for 6 years. Granted, Pikiell's experience was limited to 1 year at UConn right after graduating, and Painter was brought to Purdue for one year as a coach-in-waiting to Keady. Ferry was a PSU asst coach for 3 seasons prior to this one.
Izzo and Gard are the closest analogues to Collins, in regards to having zero HC experience whatsoever, but both Izzo and Gard had the benefit of taking over at the school where they had been assistants for 12 and 14 seasons respectively.
Not sure how Coffey relates to a comparison between Minny vs NU 2021. But please tell me about their talent being better
Carr/Buie - No comparison, Carr is an all B1G player
Kalscheur/Audige - Audige is better. Kalscheur went from a good to a 22% 3 pt shooter
Williams/Kopp - Kopp is better
Johnson/Nance - Nance is better
Robbins/Young - Debatable, Robbins can have monster games. Most games still shows needing more time to adapt from transitioning from Drake
Curry/Beran - eeh. Even the Beran we've seen lately is not worse
Mashburn/Berry - Debatable, if Berry had 17 minutes a game he'd be posting better numbers
Gach/Gaines - Gach, sure, but Gach splits minutes with Williams
They don't have a better roster than we do. They just get more out of what they have.
Ok, but your first example is the most important. We have nowhere near an All-Big performer, and our weakest starter is our point guard, the most important player.
I think your guy is off the board, RW. The Athletic reported he signed an extension today through 2027 at an average of $3.2M.
Too bad. It was a good idea on your part.
A shame, though I guess they were thinking the same way I was.
Truth is, we can probably beat that AAV if we want to, but I’m not sure the university would (or should) do it.