+/- for the debacle against the Buckeyes

PurpleWhiteBoy

Redshirt
Feb 25, 2021
5,303
0
0
PlayerMinsNU ptsOSU ptsRaw +/-Player AdjustNet +/-
Barnhizer182730-3+8.4+5.4
Berry223333+0-2.6-2.6
Verhoeven203540-5-0.9-5.9
Roper244552-7-1.5-8.5
Nicholson202233-11+2.1-8.9
Beran243043-13+2.0-11.0
Audige374967-18-4.8-22.8
Buie354467-23-2.6-25.6

This game was the first game this season that I haven't been able to watch live. I still haven't watched it, but I will.
Barnhizer appears to have been the only guy on the team who wasn't nervous.
 

PURPLECAT88

Senior
Feb 4, 2003
7,684
742
113
So the players who benefitted from your magical "player adjust" column are Brooks, Beran and MN. Hmmm.
 

PurpleWhiteBoy

Redshirt
Feb 25, 2021
5,303
0
0
Hope you are well PWB
I am doing quite well!!!
Thanks!

Just got back yesterday from a vacation to Berlin and Paris.
Missed 3 games... trying to catch up. Haven't read any of the crazy messages yet.
Watched a replay of the big win over Indiana, but haven't gotten to the OSU loss and the win over Illinois.
I'm sure the message board meanies had a lot to say about Nicholson during the Ohio State game!
 

PurpleWhiteBoy

Redshirt
Feb 25, 2021
5,303
0
0
So the players who benefitted from your magical "player adjust" column are Brooks, Beran and MN. Hmmm.
What I do to adjust the performances is an unbiased calculation, based on steals, 2 point shots made, 3 point shots made, shots missed, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, steals, turnovers, assists and blocks.

There's no magic to it, just solid reasoning.
 
Sep 9, 2015
1,986
342
83
What I do to adjust the performances is an unbiased calculation, based on steals, 2 point shots made, 3 point shots made, shots missed, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, steals, turnovers, assists and blocks.

There's no magic to it, just solid reasoning.
There’s still a bias in the calculation. The adjustments show favor to players whose game put up numbers. Might not be human bias but there’s still a bias.
 

PURPLECAT88

Senior
Feb 4, 2003
7,684
742
113
What I do to adjust the performances is an unbiased calculation, based on steals, 2 point shots made, 3 point shots made, shots missed, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, steals, turnovers, assists and blocks.

There's no magic to it, just solid reasoning.
That makes sense. Any formula that rewards rebounds and blocks, focuses so much on shooting percentage (or as you call it shots made and shots missed) and punishes turnovers is going to favor big men who play closer to the basket while punishing ball-handlers and outside players. If this is how you evaluate basketball, it helps explain your love for MN and your contempt for Boo. Thank you for clarifying.
 

PurpleWhiteBoy

Redshirt
Feb 25, 2021
5,303
0
0
There’s still a bias in the calculation. The adjustments show favor to players whose game put up numbers. Might not be human bias but there’s still a bias.
I'm not sure how thats a bias.

I came up with the player performance adjustments after several people pointed out (correctly) that the raw +/- treated each guy in the lineup the same, whether he was playing well or not - as measured by things like rebounds, assists, shots made and all the "normal" measures of contributions.

So one issue could be in how various contributions are weighted (rebound versus steal or assist or whatever).

Another potential issue is the assumption that the team has freedom in shot selection - that a guy who goes 2 for 4 from the field is equally as effective as a guy who goes 4 for 8 - in other words there's no credit for taking a shot.
 

PurpleWhiteBoy

Redshirt
Feb 25, 2021
5,303
0
0
That makes sense. Any formula that rewards rebounds and blocks, focuses so much on shooting percentage (or as you call it shots made and shots missed) and punishes turnovers is going to favor big men who play closer to the basket while punishing ball-handlers and outside players. If this is how you evaluate basketball, it helps explain your love for MN and your contempt for Boo. Thank you for clarifying.
Well rebounds and blocks count, do they not? If you think about all of the categories in terms of possessions, it isn't that difficult to assign weights to the box score stats.
(the "advanced stat" BPM - Box Plus Minus - does exactly that).

If Audige steals the ball, then turns it over, the impact nets out to nothing. If Nicholson gets an offensive rebound, then misses a layup that also nets out to nothing.

But to further clarify, I think Buie is a fairly good player, possibly our best player, so I don't know where you get the "contempt" thing. I have said that he hasn't been playing as well as he did last year. The numbers support that statement.
 
Sep 9, 2015
1,986
342
83
I'm not sure how thats a bias.

I came up with the player performance adjustments after several people pointed out (correctly) that the raw +/- treated each guy in the lineup the same, whether he was playing well or not - as measured by things like rebounds, assists, shots made and all the "normal" measures of contributions.

So one issue could be in how various contributions are weighted (rebound versus steal or assist or whatever).

Another potential issue is the assumption that the team has freedom in shot selection - that a guy who goes 2 for 4 from the field is equally as effective as a guy who goes 4 for 8 - in other words there's no credit for taking a shot.
Well the issue with +\- in general it doesn’t account for who the player is on the court with as well as who they are playing. It shows a bias to someone who plays against worse competition and/or has better teammates on the floor with them. If you’re on the floor for a good run… say a teammate gets hot and hits 2-3 three’s in a row and lay up. Did you really make those plus plays?

Plus and minus is more geared to lineups instead of individual players. It’s still not perfect as it doesn’t measure competition. There’s also not a whole lot of data points throughout a season.

The adjustments come into issue for in that there’s a lot of + and - plays that don’t show up on the stat sheet and/or show up on someone else’s stat sheet even though someone else made the play.

Ex. 1 Player A gets hand on a missed shot and tips it out to someone who actually secures the rebound and logs the rebound stat. Both players netted a plus play

Ex. 2 Player A tips a pass, or strips a ball and Player B secures it. Player B gets the steal but player A created the plus defensive play.

Ex. 3 Player A makes a bad read and passes the ball that puts player b in bad position resulting in a turnover. Player A made the - play and but Player B is penalized on the the stat sheet.

Ex. 4 Player A drives the ball sucking in the defense and kicks the ball out player B who makes the extra pass to player C who hits their shot. Player A initiated that whole sequence and they all deserve a plus play as that’s good basketball but only player c and b get credit.

Ex. 5 Player A sets a solid screen and/or shields the help defender from collapsing and player B scores. Player B gets an adjustment for points scored and Player A gets penalized for making a plus play.

Ex.6 Player A walls up and stops an opposing play from getting good position Player B comes behind and blocks the shot 1-3 times and the backboard gets it 0-2 times. Player B gets an adjustment for the block but both make a plus play.

Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t your adjustments add to the player who recorded the stat and subtract from the rest of the players on the court (turnovers the inverse is true)?

A player who plays extremely solid defense and then moves the ball well and sets screens is at a major disadvantage in this stat. They could set all the right screens, make cuts that free up space, make excellent passes that don’t result in assists for them but either causes a favorable matchup for a teammate or results in assist for a different teammate and it wouldn’t show up as much in their personal +\- . The adjusts would in-fact hurt the player even though they are constantly making + plays.

Your adjusted +\- has a bias to stat sheet stuffers. That’s fine and idk how you’d eliminate that outside of watching tape and designating plus play and minus play but that would add human bias.

All stats have a bias. The important part is to understand the context of the stats with that bias. Acknowledging the short comings of a stat while also not misleading people by providing context to it.
 
Last edited:

PurpleWhiteBoy

Redshirt
Feb 25, 2021
5,303
0
0
Thanks for the thoughtful response.

I understand those "scorer's decisions" and the wide array of possible two-man or team interactions and contributions. I don't really have a choice but to leave that to the scorer. Tipped Rebounds and turnovers are often a judgment call. I see the term "team rebound" used several times a game and don't like to overrule those. Setting good screens or passing to the guy who gets the assist are intangibles that show up in the actual score, but not the box score categories.

The way I see it, the raw +/- is the best indication of how lineups perform "overall" with several general caveats, as you mentioned. The adjustments should just reflect who was contributing more (or less) in the recorded aspects of the game.

You are correct that if 5 guys are out there for a minute and the opponent makes a layup, then, lets say Beran throws the ball away, each player would be -2 from the "raw +/-" perspective, but the adjustment would be -1 for Beran and +0.25 for the other 4.
The net would be Beran -3, everybody else -1.75.

The solid defensive players who don't shoot much tend to have lower adjustments, unless they grab a bunch of rebounds. But they should get credit for those, with offensive rebounds counting more than defensive.
 

PURPLECAT88

Senior
Feb 4, 2003
7,684
742
113
Well rebounds and blocks count, do they not? If you think about all of the categories in terms of possessions, it isn't that difficult to assign weights to the box score stats.
(the "advanced stat" BPM - Box Plus Minus - does exactly that).

If Audige steals the ball, then turns it over, the impact nets out to nothing. If Nicholson gets an offensive rebound, then misses a layup that also nets out to nothing.

But to further clarify, I think Buie is a fairly good player, possibly our best player, so I don't know where you get the "contempt" thing. I have said that he hasn't been playing as well as he did last year. The numbers support that statement.
A player who handles the ball more is going to have more turnovers. A player who plays nearer to the rim is going to have more blocks and rebounds. A player who only shoots from inside the paint should have a better shooting percentage. Assist and steal stats might help the outside player but not nearly as much. As Holland said, all stats have bias based on how much weight you give them. I don't know if these numbers are even accessible, but just for starters "turnovers per minute of ball-handling" would be a far better stat than just raw turnovers.
 

PurpleWhiteBoy

Redshirt
Feb 25, 2021
5,303
0
0
A player who handles the ball more is going to have more turnovers. A player who plays nearer to the rim is going to have more blocks and rebounds. A player who only shoots from inside the paint should have a better shooting percentage. Assist and steal stats might help the outside player but not nearly as much. As Holland said, all stats have bias based on how much weight you give them. I don't know if these numbers are even accessible, but just for starters "turnovers per minute of ball-handling" would be a far better stat than just raw turnovers.
I strongly prefer Pts/40 or Rebounds/40 or whatever. Provides a clearer picture than purely aggregated numbers like "Points Per Game"

Having said that, when I calculate the "Player Adjustments" I'm looking at impact on a game in terms of creating and converting possessions for your team. Possessions "should be" worth 1 point - just a ballpark number. So NU has the ball, Audige shoots... and scores. The guys on the floor for NU are all +2. Audige personally is +1 beyond that. To "conserve" the +/-, you have to subtract 0.25 points from each of the other 4 guys. Each segment is viewed in isolation (until the lineup changes) then the contributions and mistakes are totalled and allocated for that segment.

The weights as implemented are...

Made 2Made 3MissORebDRebStealAssistTOBlkMade FTMiss FT
+1+2-1+1+0.5+1+0.5-1+0.75+0.4-0.6
 

PURPLECAT88

Senior
Feb 4, 2003
7,684
742
113
PWB, I appreciate the work you put into this and the patience you have displayed explaining it to me. I now see your adjustments as being valuable in comparing players at similar positions. It isn't everything, and I still think there is a built-in advantage for inside players on your adjustments, but I now have a better understanding of its value.