God has always been. Since nothing can be created from nothing....there was always a creator.
He didn't make a flawed system. We as his children turned on Him.
For those who follow creationism, what are the most convincing arguments in favor of creationism?
- Thread starter RexBowie
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God has always been. Since nothing can be created from nothing....there was always a creator.
He didn't make a flawed system. We as his children turned on Him.
This might satisfy you but hard pass on this logical leap for me.
Where did chemistry and its rules and laws originate?
To take it a step further, was math always just…
”there?” Physics?
Turtles.
And my statement/questions have nothing to do with religion. Certainly not organized religion.
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Math is a way to describe what exists. It is not necessary for math to exist. Same with language.
Sorry - I don't sign in on here a whole lot to be in a discussion like this during basketball offseason. Usually just browse the pages.
To answer your question, I don't think a missing link will ever be found. There have been so many false claims and too many people looking for it to remain hidden all these years.
Okay, so let's say hypothetically, that a missing link is found. What would it look like?
Fair enough, if that’s how you see it.
I am not going, nor am I even trying, to change your mind.
Still doesn’t address the real counterpoint I made when addressing the other poster: that “this” is all just because of “chemistry.” Well, okay, where did chemistry originate (and physics, for that matter)? They certainly are neither just “descriptions.” They involve actual processes. Where did the rules that dictate those processes and outcomes originate?
This is the known unknown. You can attribute it to a creator or to random chance or some other option (aliens?) but whatever it is it’s the current limit of human knowledge.
In my mind it makes more sense that we are the one a in a trillion trillion instance than something got bored and decided to make a living breathing diorama we call Earth.
My problem with the argument of "chance", ignoring that we are drawing such probabilities from limited information & assumptions that life forms must have the same environment as earthlings...
Is that while it's true that the odds of a particular individual existing are low, the odds of any individual existing are high. In order for any human to exist, they must be an incredibly lucky sperm dispatched at the perfect time for fertilization. Just based on those metrics alone, all humans are very lucky to exist at all. However, given that most humans do reproduce, the odds of any human existing are quite high. More specifically, being unlikely to exist doesn't necessarily mean existence is unlikely.
Is that while it's true that the odds of a particular individual existing are low, the odds of any individual existing are high. In order for any human to exist, they must be an incredibly lucky sperm dispatched at the perfect time for fertilization. Just based on those metrics alone, all humans are very lucky to exist at all. However, given that most humans do reproduce, the odds of any human existing are quite high. More specifically, being unlikely to exist doesn't necessarily mean existence is unlikely.
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What cause? The reason it started? Out of our range. Something else? Please explain.
As I already said in my last post, these conversations typically devolve into conflating odds and cause.
Yes, the chance of the so-called “universal constants” that have to be in place for all of “this” to exist is low. I mean, it really is absurd.
But that’s got nothing to do with cause. I’ve still never once been given even a slightly convincing argument on the cause front, and I’ve been fascinated by all of this for years. Not a single person I’ve ever spoken to personally nor any of the academics’ works I’ve read can even begin to touch on cause.
It always just ends up going back to “Chance!”
Yes, the chance of the so-called “universal constants” that have to be in place for all of “this” to exist is low. I mean, it really is absurd.
But that’s got nothing to do with cause. I’ve still never once been given even a slightly convincing argument on the cause front, and I’ve been fascinated by all of this for years. Not a single person I’ve ever spoken to personally nor any of the academics’ works I’ve read can even begin to touch on cause.
It always just ends up going back to “Chance!”
I didn’t say anything about reason. That, again, has nothing to do with cause. HOW it actually happened. Not WHY.
“Cause and effect” is supposedly a pillar of the scientific community. Yet, all of the hardcore atheistic scientists, when really pushed on the matter, just throw it out the window. “Just because!”
We've already established in this thread that evolution makes no claim on the origin of life itself. We've also established that there is not an inherent contradiction between creationism and evolution. More specifically, there is a contradiction between young earth creationism and evolution.
Are you saying that origin of life must be considered with respect to evolution?
No way to know. So you can choose to make a leap either way and be on the same footing.
That’s where I agree with you. That’s beyond anything we could likely ever know with the limited brains and knowledge we have.
My point is that it makes no sense to genuinely believe “everything came from nothing.”
Fair enough. All of which I agree with. I’ve for a long time felt that both creationism and evolution can coexist.
I was simply addressing one particular poster’s comment that “this” is all “just from chemistry” as opposed to a creator.
Sorry for getting the thread off track.
The fact that the precision exists that a math construct can be built around is something, huh?
Yep. There’s a boundary we probably aren’t supposed to cross. I’d personally lean towards the idea that there’s never been nothing but past that it’s a leap of faith.
Also agree. I think there are some things “in this dimension” (whatever that even means) we just weren’t meant to discover or know.
I couldn’t even begin to tell you (nor could anyone) how something just “always existed.” But to me, it certainly makes a lot more sense than “everything came from nothing.”
Really appreciate the thoughtful and courteous discussion.
Thanks to you, as well.
Always refreshing when these conversations don’t resort to ad hominem attacks.
Well if the God of the Bible exists, that child is in Jesus' presence for eternity, pain free, experiencing joy I can't wait to feel myself.
If all this occurred randomly, the child lived a life full of pain and agony for what purpose? To end up in the fertilizer pit?
And for anyone who cares, a 90 pg thread about the existence of God already exists...
Another position with no evidence. Just hope. Good luck.
I think similar to Ron that we are all morons and you can't really prove much of anything.
For the science guys, what legit proof is there to quantify the size of our galaxy and the universe? How do we know really? Seems like a lot of guessing to me.
Same thing with age of planet. Who determined the logic and made it the gospel? Some random person I'd assume. These rings mean this many million bazillion years old eh? But how whas that determined?
For the creator guys, same issues. Can't really prove any of it so it is what it is there either.
I guess I'm coming across as a guy that doesn't know what to believe or trust so I will gladly accept the American idiot trophy.
For the science guys, what legit proof is there to quantify the size of our galaxy and the universe? How do we know really? Seems like a lot of guessing to me.
Same thing with age of planet. Who determined the logic and made it the gospel? Some random person I'd assume. These rings mean this many million bazillion years old eh? But how whas that determined?
For the creator guys, same issues. Can't really prove any of it so it is what it is there either.
I guess I'm coming across as a guy that doesn't know what to believe or trust so I will gladly accept the American idiot trophy.
Yet math is orderly, meaning that what exists is orderly.
And even still, the problem of how existence “just happened” hasn’t been answered. It literally requires faith.
Only that our way to describe what we can know is orderly. There are plenty of things we can’t explain. And there is randomness so I’m not sure your point is landing.
The answer to all these questions come from models and theories that repeatedly make accurate predictions observed across multiple fields of study.
The age of the universe is calculated by measuring the observed rate of cosmic expansion, which mathematically coincides with the furthest observable stars. Age of stars is calculated by measuring red shift, which is the result of the Doppler effect.
The age of the earth is surmised via radio metric data and analysis of the solar system.
I think there is a line between skepticism and cynicism. Skepticism is healthy, but when there are not more accurate models, then what is better? There is also quite a bit of difference between belief, theory and fact. The theories which repeatedly make predictions about the observable universe are not the same as beliefs.
God never promised a "perfect" or "painless" existence. Our time here is basically a proving ground of faith. Thats my perception. I fail at it on a daily basis.
Imo a bad outcome isnt proof of a flawed design. Those are two very different things even when the individual has little/no control over the situation.
I think there is a very compelling argument at least the framework of the system is of sublime perfection. A little closer or further away and earth is uninhabitable. The complexity of the human genome and even each cell in particular. The immeasurable vastness of the infinite universe. On and on.
I never doubted we and our world were created. I just wonder who created it all. If you look at ancient texts etc, they could very well be meaning some form of alien being(s) instead of a deity and they just didn't possess the comprehension to express it. Though even with that, their existence had to start somewhere too which means there must be some supreme creator that exists on some plane.
This nerdy guy is good at what he does (he's also a Christian).......