Gooms....your opinion as a ref

[pjjp]

on this play in the JCA/Marist game would be appreciated. At approximately the :23 mark of the link, #90 on JCA gets his hand on a punt (the ball also is touched by JC's #22....the left DE at the LOS). The ball continues forward and is recovered by Marist. The Marist player picks the ball up and runs it inside the JCA 5-yard line. At first, the officials were going to give Marist the ball at that spot. They later put it back to where the Marist player first touched the ball (after at first marking it inside the JC 50-yard line). BTW....the discussions must have taken over 5 minutes, and I believe they finally got the mark corrected after viewing the play on the video replay screen at Joliet Memorial.

What is the correct call in this situation? Should it be Marist's ball? If it is, I don't think Marist can advance the punt. I'm assuming it's considered a "muff". What say you?

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

I know this isn't directed to me but I'll give it a swing.

Since the ball was touched by the JCA player it's considered a muffed punt. Ball is dead at the point of recovery for Marist.

That's how I understand it

 

[bronco66]

It should be JCA's ball at the dead ball spot. A kick blocked at or behind the LOS is not considered a touch for muffs/change of possession, etc.

 

[Goomlah]

JCA Ball at the 45. Both touches by JCA were behind the line of scrimmage (30 yd line). I don't think the other JCA player past the line of scrimmage touched it. Either way, Marist couldn't have returned it anyway, as you can't return a muff. Now, if the kick stayed behind the line of scrimmage, Marist could run with it.

 

[refref01]

There is an expanded neutral zone on scrimmage kicks and passes which cover among other things low/blocked punts.

It looks like in this play that the second touching should have been ignored and it should have been JCA ball where the Marist player first touched it.

 

[pjjp]

Gooms...that was the general consensus of my fan group, as well. Thanks for the input.

 

[USD24]

Well then it appears that they got it wrong. I guess I was right for screaming!

 

[Goomlah]

Wait, they gave Marist the ball? OMG not only did they give it to the wrong team it still wasn't the right spot. It was the Marist 45. The ESCC assigner will have a field day on that one.

 

[USD24]

Wait, they gave Marist the ball?

That is correct. They gave Marist the ball.

 

[Goomlah]

I'm still trying to figure out your last TD as well. Forward progress at some point was stopped,...

 

[ref2]

I do not see a JCA player touch the ball beyond the expanded neutral zone. Although it is possible. If not then it should be JCA's ball at the spot of first touching. Around the 45.

My question is how did they come up with one spot, and then the Line Judge comes in and they then change it?

 

[pjjp]

My question is how did they come up with one spot, and then the Line Judge comes in and they then change it?

I honestly believe they changed the second spot (after bringing it back from the JC 5-yard line) after viewing the replay on the video screen at the stadium.

 

[refref01]

The BJ was standing on the Marist 45 when Marist recovered on the JCA 45. My guess he dropped his bag there for some reason or they just guessed at that spot.

 

[ref2]

I'm still trying to figure out your last TD as well. Forward progress at some point was stopped,...

Agree to a point, can't really tell when he started to pitch the ball backwards though. Slow whistles are better then quick ones

 

[ref2]

The BJ was standing on the Marist 45 when Marist recovered on the JCA 45. My guess he dropped his bag there for some reason or they just guessed at that spot.

My guess is this will be shown at a couple clinics next year.

They had to guess, because if he dropped his bag on the 45 why did they put it on the 47

 

[Goomlah]

I do not see a JCA player touch the ball beyond the expanded neutral zone. Although it is possible. If not then it should be JCA's ball at the spot of first touching. Around the 45.

My question is how did they come up with one spot, and then the Line Judge comes in and they then change it?

I know the ESCC assigner. I'm sure you know as well ref2. They might have been told at halftime that was all wrong.

Let me explain the mechanics for everyone so they have an idea. The linesman (guy on the chains) is holding the line of scrimmage. He should know the 1st 2 touches by JCA were behind the line scrimmage. He's watching if the ball is touched by the JCA #21 (the guy who puts his hands up, I can't quite read the number correctly). The linesman has to blow the whistle as soon as Marist recovers the kick, no matter who recovers the ball. He has a brain cramp and doesn't blow the whistle, and then not giving JCA the ball is on all 5 officials because one of them has to know the rule and tell the white hat.

 

[ref2]

agree to a point, all 5 officials should know this, and should have had more then one official blowing his whistle. The BJ and LJ should both know this ball cannot be advanced. JCA never had possession. should have had 3 whistles

 

[Goomlah]

agree to a point, all 5 officials should know this, and should have had more then one official blowing his whistle. The BJ and LJ should both know this ball cannot be advanced. JCA never had possession. should have had 3 whistles

Yes blow the whistle please. This is embarassing to happen in this situation, and we as officials can all learn from it.

 

[ref2]

Had a situation in a playoff game a couple years back. Team kicking off into a very strong wind. Ball gets hung up in the air and literally starts backward. Kid from kicking team catches it in the air and starts to advance. I would bet all five of us were blowing our whistles , plus throwing are flags.

 

[Goomlah]

Had a situation in a playoff game a couple years back. Team kicking off into a very strong wind. Ball gets hung up in the air and literally starts backward. Kid from kicking team catches it in the air and starts to advance. I would bet all five of us were blowing our whistles , plus throwing are flags.

And no one on the receiving team would have tackled him for a while either.

 

[Goomlah]

Agree to a point, can't really tell when he started to pitch the ball backwards though. Slow whistles are better then quick ones

I can live with that one and agree with slower whistles. The play was 4th and long though. Chances of Marist getting a 1st down at that point are slim. I guess my theory on that is no cheap touchdowns. I would consider that cheap.

 

[Goomlah]

BTW we have not had as many plays as we normally do about officials and what the rules are. IF anyone has anything, please just ask and I, ref2, and refref01 will answer to the best of our ability.

 

[chuck998]

Yikes, this play will be featured at a lot of officials' meetings! As stated, and in my opinion, all the jca touching occurred behind the los. Should have been jca ball at about the 45. At least I didn't see a jca touch down field. Maybe it brushed the kid with his hands in the air?

 

[Goomlah]

Yikes, this play will be featured at a lot of officials' meetings! As stated, and in my opinion, all the jca touching occurred behind the los. Should have been jca ball at about the 45. At least I didn't see a jca touch down field. Maybe it brushed the kid with his hands in the air?

He was 1 yard behind the LOS.

 

[chuck998]

He was 1 yard behind the LOS.

Sorry, I watched that on my phone. Got home and watched it on a bigger screen. I was referring to #28 down field, but upon further review I can see he's clear. Sorry.

 

[voice of meteor football]

Here's a question from last Friday's De La Salle-McNamara game. Mac RB gains nine yards on a play in which DLS is flagged for holding. What confused me is that Mac not only got the nine yards but also the 10 on the hold. Should it not have been one or the other? I thought only in deadball situations did the penalty get tacked onto the run. Thanks for any insight.

 

[refref01]

Defensive holding on a running play is rarely called as the only benefit for B is usually holding of a lineman that is attempting to pull as well in the cases of pull and shoot technique by a D line. While the enforcement is correct it is not very common. This is similar to a facemask penalty which is tacked on to the end of a run. The entire situation could help as this is very rare occurrence and more tiems than not is one that would be "let go" as it does not gain an advantage to B.

 

[ref2]

Defensive holding on a running play is rarely called as the only benefit for B is usually holding of a lineman that is attempting to pull as well in the cases of pull and shoot technique by a D line. While the enforcement is correct it is not very common. This is similar to a facemask penalty which is tacked on to the end of a run. The entire situation could help as this is very rare occurrence and more tiems than not is one that would be "let go" as it does not gain an advantage to B.

Agreed. I too would like to know more about the situation as holding on the defense on a run is very rarely called. Just wondering if the announcer said holding and it might have been something else, Block in the back maybe/ Signals are similar.

 

[Goomlah]

Agreed. I too would like to know more about the situation as holding on the defense on a run is very rarely called. Just wondering if the announcer said holding and it might have been something else, Block in the back maybe/ Signals are similar.

Well the original post said it was 19 yard gain after the 10 yard penalty on the defense. I'm not sure that's totally right,...

 

[ref2]

I'm guessing 10 yard holding and 9 yard run.

 

[refref01]

Agreed. I too would like to know more about the situation as holding on the defense on a run is very rarely called. Just wondering if the announcer said holding and it might have been something else, Block in the back maybe/ Signals are similar.

Block in the back by defense though would be ignored if attempting to get to the ball carrier but yes it could have been a miscommunication by the announcer.

It may have been an enforcement mistake and probably should have been picked up. I am thinking a read option or play action action and a tackle of the purported ball carrier.

Hopefully it was a tackle of the pulling guard as that would be about the only rationale call.