GOT 5/22
- Thread starter CBradSmith
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Now I'm glad I didn't navigate to that page. Not knowing made it considerably enjoyable, though you could see a few things coming.
Great episode. A couple random thoughts/questions:
1. Regarding the Littlefinger/Sansa scene. Is it just me, or did he actually seem remorseful for what Sansa went through under Ramsey? He didn't seem necessarily surprised at what had happened, but he did seem a little surprised at how badly it had scarred Sansa. Did anyone else get the same feeling?
2. I have trouble believing Littlefinger for a moment about the Black Fish retaking Riverrun. Just doesn't feel right coming from him.
3. I wouldn't be surprised if we never hear from Jorah again. I'm wondering if the circumstances of his departure were a way for the writers to get rid of him without killing him off - the guy needs to catch a break at some point, right?
4. It's not looking to me like Arya is going to be part of the Faceless Men for the long haul, as some of you have speculated recently. I guess the only question is whether she leaves of her own volition or is she "kicked out" for some reason? In any event, does Jaqen or the Waif hunt her down afterwards?
5. It was very interesting to see the origins of the Night King, and it makes perfect sense.
6. Sad to see the demise of the Children of the Forest as well as the 3 Eyed Raven. What does this mean for Bran? The 3 Eyed Raven obviously couldn't finish his knowledge dump into Bran due to the sudden change in events.
7. Hodor. Wow that was sad to see. So he only says Hodor because of a seizure he had as an adolescent years ago, which was caused by Bran warging into him in the present. So we now have a example of the butterfly effect due to time travel?
Really solid episode. I don't usually re-watch an episode during the season, but I may try to catch this one when it airs again later this week.
1. Regarding the Littlefinger/Sansa scene. Is it just me, or did he actually seem remorseful for what Sansa went through under Ramsey? He didn't seem necessarily surprised at what had happened, but he did seem a little surprised at how badly it had scarred Sansa. Did anyone else get the same feeling?
2. I have trouble believing Littlefinger for a moment about the Black Fish retaking Riverrun. Just doesn't feel right coming from him.
3. I wouldn't be surprised if we never hear from Jorah again. I'm wondering if the circumstances of his departure were a way for the writers to get rid of him without killing him off - the guy needs to catch a break at some point, right?
4. It's not looking to me like Arya is going to be part of the Faceless Men for the long haul, as some of you have speculated recently. I guess the only question is whether she leaves of her own volition or is she "kicked out" for some reason? In any event, does Jaqen or the Waif hunt her down afterwards?
5. It was very interesting to see the origins of the Night King, and it makes perfect sense.
6. Sad to see the demise of the Children of the Forest as well as the 3 Eyed Raven. What does this mean for Bran? The 3 Eyed Raven obviously couldn't finish his knowledge dump into Bran due to the sudden change in events.
7. Hodor. Wow that was sad to see. So he only says Hodor because of a seizure he had as an adolescent years ago, which was caused by Bran warging into him in the present. So we now have a example of the butterfly effect due to time travel?
Really solid episode. I don't usually re-watch an episode during the season, but I may try to catch this one when it airs again later this week.
On Littlefinger. I think he was legitimately remorseful. He is a scheming, power hungry, POS, but I think he legitimately cares about Sansa. He was totally in love with her mother and definitely had, at least, a crush on her. The HBO writers kind of blew it by having him turn her over to Ramsay, as it was completely out of character for show Littlefinger and would never have happened for book Littlefinger. I guess it could be explained away by saying that either he let his scheming side get the better of him, temporarily, or he really didn't know how much of a monster Ramsay was. Maybe he knew he was a sadistic monster, but didn't think he would be that way to his wife. Either way, I think the intent of the HBO writers is that he is truly remorseful and is not currently trying to "play" Sansa.
I do think that his information on The Blackfish was accurate. I can't imagine what he would have to gain by making that up. Especially when he wants Sansa to use the Vale army to help destroy the Boltons and retake Winterfell. It doesn't make sense to take the Vale army all the way to the North, then inform Sansa that an alternative army exists that can help her achieve her goals.
I think Jorah will be back at some point. They sure set it up for him to find a cure and return. If they wanted to write him out of the show, there were plenty of easy ways to make that happen. He could have sacrificed himself to save Dani from a rogue Dothraki.
Tough to imagine any way that Meera and Bran survive, I am sure they will, but how? It is super cold. They are being chased by WW and zombies. The North is pretty much devoid of wildlings who might help them. She weighs significantly less than Bran and his litter. HBO killed off Shaggy Dog. How in the heck are they going to get out of this mess? Maybe Benjen Stark appears. Other than him, I can't imagine who would potentially come to their aid. Maybe Bran can warg into a giant bear or elk and he can pull the litter to safety at a relatively high speed.
Not sure where they are headed with Arya. It is clear that she won't be able to be "no one" and follow orders. They will kick her to the curb. My only question is whether or not she will learn to change her face before she leaves. If not, her stay there will have been pretty much a waste of time. She has probably improved her fighting skills and learned not to be so focused on revenge, but not really much in the way of changes beyond that.
Blackfish taking Riverrun is consistent with the book. He's a much bigger character in the books. I believe Jamie actually does battle with him.
Like Jon's resurrection Ayra moment of conscience gives her an out from her vows to hook back up with the family and play some type of major role in the final outcome. Or just get killed to fill the dead Stark quota for the season.
Looks like they only had enough CGI budget for Dragons or Dierwolfs. Only Ghost remains.
I think Jorah will have some type of dramatic heroic death
The big question. So did the Holder flashback confirm the Bran can and has already effected history? We appear to be heading into Lost territory. I not very excited about that.
Like Jon's resurrection Ayra moment of conscience gives her an out from her vows to hook back up with the family and play some type of major role in the final outcome. Or just get killed to fill the dead Stark quota for the season.
Looks like they only had enough CGI budget for Dragons or Dierwolfs. Only Ghost remains.
I think Jorah will have some type of dramatic heroic death
The big question. So did the Holder flashback confirm the Bran can and has already effected history? We appear to be heading into Lost territory. I not very excited about that.
That's my thought. They reintroduced Benjen in the Hodor scenes, that was for a reason.
Unless I am mistaken, you are mistaken. My recollection is that Jaime joins the siege of Riverrun, where the Blackfish is holding the castle and the Freys are the force surrounding the castle. The Freys have Edmure captive and are threatening to hang him if the Blackfish doesn't surrender. Jaime parlays with The Blackfish and makes a deal with him to send Edmure (and his Frey wife) safely to Casterly Rock if the Blackfish surrenders the castle to Frey control. Riverrun does surrender, but the Blackfish escapes by swimming under the gate that the river flows under. At the end of Book 5, the Blackfish is in hiding (possibly will link up with The Brotherhood Without Banners) and Riverrun is in the hand of the Freys. I guess it is possible that he retakes RR in the books, but I would say that it does not seem very likely.
I agree. Hopefully we don't see much more (if any) of that. Maybe it happened because Bran didn't fully understand how to use his abilities, and as he becomes more experienced, he will be able to prevent it in the future. Maybe he will be very reluctant to go into the past because he will be so remorseful about what he did to Hodor. I think we still need to see what happened when Ned and Howland found Lyanna, but maybe we won't see much more of past events.
I agree with both your takes on Littlefinger. I also agree that, despite the dire circumstances, Bran will have to survive at least for a while. Just as a matter of storytelling, I don't think they will reintroduce Bran, show him to be so obviously mystically powerful, only show half the Tower of Joy scene, and then kill him off. It's not like Osha, where she really didn't have anything left to do. BJ, you're a comic book guy, so you'll understand this analogy. I keep thinking Bran will be the post-paralysis Barbara Gordon of the GoT universe. The paralysis thing is a coincidence, but given his powers, it seems like he should be the one who provides information and facilitates communication for the "good guys" when the real fight with the White Walkers begins.
Not sure how you can say that? I would agree as far as Arya goes, but they have definitely advanced the stories of Sansa, Jon, Bran and Dani. I'm ready for Dani to leave Slavers Bay though. It is time to move on.
I thought it was a great episode. Just like the popular meme going around, I may very well end up sobbing in the fetal position next time someone says "Hold the Door".
I have always thought that GRRM's Bran would end up functioning as a telephone system of sorts. I figured he would use the Weirwoods and ravens to find out what is going on in various parts of Westeros and relay that information to each of the "good" factions. Much more dependable means of communication than sending notes on Ravens, and no significant time delay. HBO has made him a much more powerful force than I ever envisioned him being in the books, although, I wouldn't rule out him warging into a dragon at some point.
Just to clarify, I never considered the possibility that he would die anytime soon in the show. I was just pointing out that it sure looks bleak for him and Meera. I know they will survive. but I can't see many logical ways in which they do (unless Benjen comes to their rescue).
If Benjen does show up, they don't have to show us the 2nd half of the TOJ scene. He can just tell us what happened. He wasn't there, but most likely, Ned would have told him all of the details and there would be no reason to think that he would lie to Benjen.
@cornichon p.s. I stopped reading comics before Barbara Gordon became Oracle, but I do have a basic understanding of the story. On the TV show, Arrow, they pretty much shoe horned Felicity Smoke into that role, correct?
I'm fine with the time travel thing just because it was more of a weird cosmic mess up, not something Bran had any control over. Its not like he can go back and willly nilly do as he pleases, he was just stuck between then and now and warged into Hodor while that door was still open, which linked up past and future Hodor...or something.
So can Bran change the past as he wishes? No, can he 'ef it up if he starts mixing his powers up? Yeah. I doubt we see it happen again.
So can Bran change the past as he wishes? No, can he 'ef it up if he starts mixing his powers up? Yeah. I doubt we see it happen again.
My memory is a little vague on Blackfish and Edmure. I may have confused the two and HBO may have combined the two characters or reassigned storylines as they have been known to do.
Bran not only has very poor short term prospects, being stuck outside in blizzards with no guidance and very little help from Meera, but he has no more giant weirwood either. He's pointless now. I can easily see them killing him off. It would be a long, involved story to tell just to have him F it up by getting involved with the "Night's King", then die quickly, but the rest of the Starks looked pretty alive too up until the point that they were dead.
The only reason IMO to keep him alive, with his mission to save the world seemingly scuttled, is to play out the rest of the TOJ scene somehow. No real reason to tease that storyline only to tell half of it then abandon it.
Bran can't stop the walkers with his powers, the Watch is no longer "true" (one of the prerequisites for the magic of the wall to hold firm), and those sumbitches are coming south of the wall very soon.
Yes, Felicity was basically in that role in Arrow. I recently gave up on that show, though. It just paled in comparison to Flash, in my opinion. It was relatively dour, and I just didn't look forward to watching it each week.
Same here. I gave up on Arrow early this season. Every episode was the same. Bad guy trying to destroy Star City. Oliver trying to save his city. 1 or 2 big fight scenes with 3-5 good guys battling it out with about 8 bad guys. Every character conflicted and brooding.
Rinse.
Repeat.
Don't you think that Bran could be taken to another giant weirwood tree and hide beneath it and continue to be a key part of the story? Maybe he ends up at the retaken Winterfell and connects with the weirwood in the godswood there.
Disagree completely, I think Bran ends up being the most powerful person in Westerose.
The 3 eyed crow already knows whats to happen and he said its time for you to become 'me'. He wouldn't have wasted a year or so training Bran if he knew he was going to die before he did anything useful.
I agree with this. Even the Raven, just a couple episodes ago, talked about Bran leaving the tree. If he's unable to use his abilities outside that particular weirwood, why would the Raven have wanted him to eventually leave? If, on the other hand, the Raven didn't want Bran to leave but knew he was going to have to through his seeing abilities, what was the point of even training Bran? I think it's going to be sort of a fakeout. We saw Bran broken at the very beginning of the series and then spent our time worried about every Stark but him; it would be pretty cool if the handicapped kid totally removed from all the human power centers ends up being the most powerful person in the land.
Respectfully disagree.
Jon Snow’s story the entire series has been the internal battle between him wanting to seek vengeance against those who have wronged the Starks and his obligations at the Wall. His obligations ended in last season’s finale when he was murdered and HBO has wasted this entire year with him brooding at Castle Black.
Dani’s agenda has always been to amass an army and reclaim Westeros. How’s that progressing? Unlike Jon, her storyline has been stalling for seasons instead of 5 or six episodes. And until the Westeros character’s taless unfold, it’s always going to be more of the same for Dani. She’s an end-game player that’s important to lay the background in the beginning, but she’s not bringing anything in the middle.
I don’t even want to start on how disappointing Arya’s narrative has become. It’s shameful enough in the books but HBO is just mailing it in via an a half-assed effort to make sure that everyone doesn’t forget her. How many ways can they portray scenes of dialog of Arya claiming she’s “no one” and someone else in the order questioning her commitment?
Bran is the ultimate bait and switch. They use him as a vehicle to tease out the answers we all want to know (ie. what’s in the Tower of Joy, where the White Walkers came from -- an actual point in your favor), but instead we get the answer to why Hodor only says one word which they spent a ton of time on setting up for a really flat climax.
Sansa is a character that gets victimized so we can see the villainy of other characters. She really doesn’t have anything to advance yet but even then all she’s done this season is arrive in Castle Black, make a case for going after the Boltons, and meet with Littlefinger. Not much to write home about.
Not only did 3ER train him for a year to replace him, he basically said he's been watching him his entire life, and has been guiding him via dreams since his fall several years ago. Thats a lot of time for one of the most powerfull forces on the planet for 90 years or so to spend on a throwaway kid.
I'm starting to disbelieve that Jon is Azal.azu.whateve reborn. He seems weaker after the "rebirth" and Millasandra is all on board with him...which usually turns bad. I think the runts, wimps, cripples, and formerly weak end up saving the day. (Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Sam, Danni and maybe Tommen).
I bet Jon dies again soon.
I'm starting to disbelieve that Jon is Azal.azu.whateve reborn. He seems weaker after the "rebirth" and Millasandra is all on board with him...which usually turns bad. I think the runts, wimps, cripples, and formerly weak end up saving the day. (Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Sam, Danni and maybe Tommen).
I bet Jon dies again soon.
I agree on Snow and Dani, lots of nothing. I disagree on Arya, especially as far as the books go, I love the story there. HBO has kind of meh'd it up and made it repetitive, but she can't go from runt to assasin over night. The books did a decent job of dragging you along in her training, show hasn't done quite as well.
Dissagree on Bran, though I would have liked to see more actually training by the 3ER, he just kind of passively tour guided him instead of imparting any wisdom. Still, that story is moving pretty quickly.
Sansa, yeahs he's just been a punching bag, but an effective one in letting us hate Joffry and Ramsey.
Hey **** is finally going somewhere in Pyke. Thats kind of the overshadowed part of this episode, I thought that was pretty decent.
I don't worry too much about the time travel thing, as it was obvious that it had to happen to save Bran. Yes, Bran will be sad that he did it, but he doesn't live otherwise.
Almost positive Benjen will save them. They have dropped his name more in the few episodes this season than they have the entire rest of the series.
Littlefinger is only remorseful because #1 he has zero control over the situation, and #2 his last connection to Catelyn just went up in smoke.
I thought the entire theater scene went on WAAAAAY too long, I have no clue what they were going for there, other than to show she still knows she's a Stark and has people to pay back. Then we get jumped to an extreme close up with a nasty pecker.
I notice the spears under the tree were made of dragon glass; would have been nice if they would have passed that nugget of knowledge on to Meera.
I heard the actor that played Walder Frey say that he would be in an upcoming scene, so that would have something to do with Blackfish and RR, I would assume.
Theon and his sister are prob going to try and take the ships to Dani to beat their uncle to her. That trip is going to take forever, tho, as the Iron Isles are on the far side of Westeros, the way I understand it.
Almost positive Benjen will save them. They have dropped his name more in the few episodes this season than they have the entire rest of the series.
Littlefinger is only remorseful because #1 he has zero control over the situation, and #2 his last connection to Catelyn just went up in smoke.
I thought the entire theater scene went on WAAAAAY too long, I have no clue what they were going for there, other than to show she still knows she's a Stark and has people to pay back. Then we get jumped to an extreme close up with a nasty pecker.
I notice the spears under the tree were made of dragon glass; would have been nice if they would have passed that nugget of knowledge on to Meera.
I heard the actor that played Walder Frey say that he would be in an upcoming scene, so that would have something to do with Blackfish and RR, I would assume.
Theon and his sister are prob going to try and take the ships to Dani to beat their uncle to her. That trip is going to take forever, tho, as the Iron Isles are on the far side of Westeros, the way I understand it.
You are correct on your geography. Iron Islands are west of Westeros. Mereen is to the east across an ocean/sea. Not only that, but they would have to sail due south and go around the southern tip of Westeros (Dorne) before turning east. Not only that, but they would either have to sail between Valyria and the southern coast of Essos (which would take them through the Smoking Sea which is akin to certain disaster/death) or, they would have to divert further south to go around Valyria before making it to Slavers Bay. In short, the journey would likely take them at least 4 months in the books. In the show, they will probably arrive in the next episode.
May look that way on paper but so did ever other episode of Batman. GRRM didn't create the whole Bran universe and bring him this far just to have him die in the snow. I think the theory that his is when Benjon Stark makes is reappearance is logical. Bran has a lot more left to his story and will be a major player in the final story. He's just beginning to tap his potential. Remember the three eye crow said he would fly. HOLDER DID NOT DIE IN VAIN.
I think it is to show she is still a Stark, and based on her reaction to the play's Ned, to remember how honorable he is and that he wouldn't kill someone for no reason. Based on her assessment of the actress she is supposed to kill, she'll conclude Ned wouldn't so she won't.
I am very interested in seeing how Meera and Bran escape their predicament. I will be a bit disappointed if Benjen is not their savior, as his return is one of the things I have been looking forward to since reading Book 1 of the series. But, I agree that he (and Meera) will survive one way or another.
From the very beginning of the series (more so in the books), it has been fairly clear that GRRM made Benjen disappear for a reason and that he would reappear when the time is right. I have always believed that the reason for hiding him (from the reader) is that he knows the truth about Jon's parentage and his return will be part of the big reveal. HBO has definitely laid the groundwork for the viewer to find out the truth about Jon before the end of this season. It could happen anytime over the next 5 episodes. That makes the return of Benjen seem logical within that time span. Thanks to Bran's abilities, they don't have to have Benjen be part of the big reveal, but if he is present, it will help to prevent anyone from thinking Bran is crazy and has no idea what he is talking about. Having Benjen around when Bran finds out the truth would make the big reveal even more interesting. Having Benjen, and Meera, around when Bran finds out that Meera is Jon's twin would take it up even another notch.
Meh, I've gone from thinking he was the storyline's single most important character to thinking they're gonna kill him off soon. We're overdue for a big GRRM FU, and Bran is the next one. Ned, Catelyn, and Robb didn't deserve to die either, they were such important characters!
The death of Summer cannot be overlooked, Bran is next. And Benjen's been gone for 4 books now, Martin forgot about him in 2002.
You guys are erring by projecting your fanboy wishes onto the storyline, this thing has never operated that way. GRRM does what he damn well pleases and you often will not like the outcome.
1.) HBO is not GRRM. Although HBO has stated that they got the Hodor story directly from the mouth/outline of GRRM, that does not mean that we can project what GRRM would do on to how HBO handles the characters. The two different versions have certainly diverged in multiple cases.
2). The deaths of Shaggy Dog and Summer are 100% driven by HBO wanting to minimize CGI, IMO. Don't mistake budgetary cuts for any type of foreshadowing.
3). I don't think you believe what you are typing. You are just channeling your inner Fred.
1) Killing off or keeping Bran alive is too big a deviation for the show runners to clash with GRRM. I think we can agree they'll not go THAT far off the reservation with a very major character. If GRRM declares him dead, HBO will kill him.
2) The wolf/Stark relationship has grown weaker over time, but those are still pretty big deals. Too big of a story theme to bow to CGI cost concerns. Therefore I conclude that Summer's death is truly significant.
3) You are 90% correct. He is a bad/good influence.
Sansa's Wolf died like 42 years ago.
Robb's died after he did.
Jon died once before his.
So far no correlation between Wolf Death and Stark Death.
Robb's died after he did.
Jon died once before his.
So far no correlation between Wolf Death and Stark Death.
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Oops dog died; no one cares. He's just an extra.
Friend of mine have a long running conversation about several things, including the twins theory. He said, just like someone on here, that it was way too Star Wars like and he doesn't think it would happen.
After last night he said the whole 3ER death by old man mentor for greater good of the younger student was so Obi-Wan like that he now believes in the twins theory.
Friend of mine have a long running conversation about several things, including the twins theory. He said, just like someone on here, that it was way too Star Wars like and he doesn't think it would happen.
After last night he said the whole 3ER death by old man mentor for greater good of the younger student was so Obi-Wan like that he now believes in the twins theory.