GOT 6-07
- Thread starter Ostatedchi
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Not a good episode. Here is why.
1) Stannis acted totally out of the character HBO has created. It simply doesn't work, and wouldn't even work in the books where Stannis is even more of a cold-hearted *******.
2) Selyse also acted out of character by trying to stop it. Had they reversed the roles, I might have bought it.
3) What was up with the sons of the harpy attacking one at a time? Were they all assigned a number and had to go in order? Had they all attacked together, they would have overwhelmed Dani and friends.
4) Why would they kill Hizdar? Makes no sense. What was the point of having Dani marry him?
5) The Dorne story line continues to suck.
1) Stannis acted totally out of the character HBO has created. It simply doesn't work, and wouldn't even work in the books where Stannis is even more of a cold-hearted *******.
2) Selyse also acted out of character by trying to stop it. Had they reversed the roles, I might have bought it.
3) What was up with the sons of the harpy attacking one at a time? Were they all assigned a number and had to go in order? Had they all attacked together, they would have overwhelmed Dani and friends.
4) Why would they kill Hizdar? Makes no sense. What was the point of having Dani marry him?
5) The Dorne story line continues to suck.
But not by who. In the books it is pretty obvious what will happen to her. However where they are in the books Stannis won't have anything to do with it.
Well Stannis is off the good guy list for sure but I don't agree it was out of character. They have been sitting it up for several weeks. It's all part of GRRM's power corrupts , what people will do to achieve it, and how others pay the cost theme.
- Stannis was shown as a man who loved his daughter but not enough to overcome his quest for power.
- When forced to chose he choose power rationalizing it by calling it his destiny and duty.
- When in fact it was the red priestess that manipulated him into it by spreading the fire Ramsey set.
I thought the scenes with him and his daughter and Davos and his daughter were great. You knew what was happening. The actual burning scene was the toughest to watch yet. It's all about the corruption of power and the cost.
Likewise I thought the Dani storyline was great. The CGI of the dragon was incredible. If you have a problem with the harpys not attacking in mass you must have a problem with every action movie made in the last fifty years. The hero's always fight them off one by one. They killed Hizdar because they viewed his as a trader for marrying Dani.
Finally getting a little payoff in the whole Drone plot. They are taking both Myrcella and the Prince back to Kings Landing which set's up an interesting season six. Overall still a disappointing part of the season.
Finally looks like Arya going to cross another name off his list next week.
Overall I thought it was a great episode. Certainly a shocker and uncomfortable in many ways but that's what GOT is. It pushes the limits in every way.
- Stannis was shown as a man who loved his daughter but not enough to overcome his quest for power.
- When forced to chose he choose power rationalizing it by calling it his destiny and duty.
- When in fact it was the red priestess that manipulated him into it by spreading the fire Ramsey set.
I thought the scenes with him and his daughter and Davos and his daughter were great. You knew what was happening. The actual burning scene was the toughest to watch yet. It's all about the corruption of power and the cost.
Likewise I thought the Dani storyline was great. The CGI of the dragon was incredible. If you have a problem with the harpys not attacking in mass you must have a problem with every action movie made in the last fifty years. The hero's always fight them off one by one. They killed Hizdar because they viewed his as a trader for marrying Dani.
Finally getting a little payoff in the whole Drone plot. They are taking both Myrcella and the Prince back to Kings Landing which set's up an interesting season six. Overall still a disappointing part of the season.
Finally looks like Arya going to cross another name off his list next week.
Overall I thought it was a great episode. Certainly a shocker and uncomfortable in many ways but that's what GOT is. It pushes the limits in every way.
I think the death of Shireen is the physical manifestation of the death of Stannis' soul. The whole relationship between Stannis and Davos has been to document how far into the clutches of Melisandre Stannis has slipped and how low he will stoop to serve what he believes is her god.
Think how many times Davos has challenged outright orders from Stannis the last two seasons. Not just because the orders were unusual for the situation, but because they were completely out of character with the "good" Stannis Davos had served long ago.
Melisandre has admitted her spells and potions are just smoke and mirrors for gullible and weak men. What's in this for her? Just to be Stannis' queen when the dust settles?
I laughed when BJ pointed out the stupidity of the sons of harpy attacking one at a time. I was screaming, "Where's all the f'n Unsullied?" And then realized the one-at-a-time deal. Even Tyrion notched his sword handle a couple of times.
What got me was that even after the dragon had flash-roasted a couple dozen and minced the meat of a couple more, a bunch of the SoH are still standing around chunking spears at him and landing shots.
Did Dani warg the dragon's appearance? He was there in an instant. As someone here supposed a few weeks ago, we now know how easy it will be to get Dani back in Westeros.
Think how many times Davos has challenged outright orders from Stannis the last two seasons. Not just because the orders were unusual for the situation, but because they were completely out of character with the "good" Stannis Davos had served long ago.
Melisandre has admitted her spells and potions are just smoke and mirrors for gullible and weak men. What's in this for her? Just to be Stannis' queen when the dust settles?
I laughed when BJ pointed out the stupidity of the sons of harpy attacking one at a time. I was screaming, "Where's all the f'n Unsullied?" And then realized the one-at-a-time deal. Even Tyrion notched his sword handle a couple of times.
What got me was that even after the dragon had flash-roasted a couple dozen and minced the meat of a couple more, a bunch of the SoH are still standing around chunking spears at him and landing shots.
Did Dani warg the dragon's appearance? He was there in an instant. As someone here supposed a few weeks ago, we now know how easy it will be to get Dani back in Westeros.
@cornichon , @Air_Thurman
Exactly.
At the end of book 5, Shireen and Selyse are at the Nightfort, Melisandre is at Castle Black and Stannis is at the crofter's village a few miles from Winterfell. My suspicion is that Melisandre will leave Castle Black, after what happened to Jon at the end of book 5, and head for the Night Fort. It is really the only place she can get to where she would have any kind of friendly reception.
I could definitely see GRRM's Shireen getting cooked. He has hardly developed her character, and has not made her nearly as much of a person as HBO did. In addition, Selyse is a cold, emotionless person who is totally dedicated to The Lord of Light and to seeing Stannis take his rightful place on the throne. She resents Shireen since she is her only child who was not stillborn and is not a male. She also thinks of her as less than human due to her being afflicted with Greyscale. In GRRM's world, it makes a lot of sense that she would sacrifice Shireen if she thought it would help Stannis' cause.
It has nothing to do with the books vs. the show, I just thought the chain of events was a little wonky. I just don't feel like in the show world they have a good handle on Stannis. At the begging of the season, the actually set up Stannis to be a good character (as good as someone can be on the show). He is this great commander with a very large army. They almost make him out to be unbeatable. He is also adamant he won't burn his daughter. Then this brilliant commander marches out in the outset of winter, one night somehow ninja Ramsey sneaks into a camp of thousands with 20 men and somehow burns all their siege weapons, food and horses. Stannis then turns around and is okay with burning his daughter.
I guess my biggest problem is the thought Ramsey could do that much destruction that Stannis feels his only option is to burn his daughter, heir and only child.
At this point I'm kind of rooting for the Others.
I guess my biggest problem is the thought Ramsey could do that much destruction that Stannis feels his only option is to burn his daughter, heir and only child.
At this point I'm kind of rooting for the Others.
I'm going to disagree with some of your points.
You say they have been setting this up all season. I would say that they were doing just the opposite until 2 episodes ago, when Stannis and Mel had the conversation about burning Shireen. Even then, Stannis seemed to be totally opposed to the idea. HBO, made Stannis one of the most liked characters on the show when he had that heart touching moment where he tole Shireen how much he loved her and how proud of her he was. They have been developing Stannis as a just man who is inflexible, but who is doing things for the right reasons. Then they humanized him by allowing him to show that he has a heart. Then they did a 180 and turned him into a heartless power crazed *******.
What makes you think Melisandre spread the fires that Ramsay set? I didn't get that at all. My take was that she was in her tent staring into her fire and saw what was about to happen but was too late to warn anyone. She ran outside as Ramsay's 20 men were igniting fires in key parts of Stannis' camp. I felt she was just an observer. IMO, she doesn't have the power to make fire spring up yards away from where she is standing.
The actions of the Sons of the Harpy were really silly. Despite what you say about action movies in general, this was to an extreme. There must have been 200+ assassins against less than 15 defenders, and they were almost literally taking turns going on the attack. One more point. They can throw spears at Drogon, but can't throw spears at Mormont, Darrio, etc? What's up with that? Right before Drogon arrived, they had Dani's party completely surrounded and didn't even make a move. I would have liked for 1 of them to say something like, "lay down your weapons and you won't die today". That would have suggested that they wanted to take them all prisoner. However, HBO made it clear that they only wanted them dead, yet they all went about it like idiots.
As to Hizdar. The whole point of Dani marrying him was to get the Sons of H to stop killing her people. The Sons wanted the fighting pits re-opened and the Slave Masters to rise to power again. Hizdar was the top guy in one of the top slaving families and was finally in a position of power where he could make some changes along the lines of the goals of the Sons (as evidenced by the re-opening of the fighting pits). Assuming that they had been successful in killing Dani and her entourage, would they want to make enemies of one of the main slaving families in the city? HBO made it clear to us that Dani did not want to marry him, but had to in order to get the Sons to stand down. Then they had the Sons kill him. Seems illogical to me.
About Arya. Agree with your point. In HBO's world, Arya will only have 1 name left on her list. Cersei. In the books, she still has about 6 names at the end of book 5.
Overall, I liked the fighting pits scene. My biggest complaint was how the Unsullied went from great fighters to Harpy bait real quick.
One thing I did like was when Mormont picked up the spear and I thought he was going after Dani/Hizdar/Darrio, then he saved Dani from the Harpy.
Saw a good comment elsewhere. The Unsullied have basically turned into Storm Troopers.
Holy crap shrimp balls he killed his daughter. I mean I was pretty sure HBO was setting that up but I hoped I was wrong. I also agree that the way she dies will be more plausible in the books then the way HBO did it. That honestly just made me sick and was one of the first times I felt uncomfortable watching GOT.
With the way DWD ended and if that guy dies for real then I will only be cheering for two people: Arya and The Night King.
With the way DWD ended and if that guy dies for real then I will only be cheering for two people: Arya and The Night King.
OK. Fine. I can almost buy that. My point, however, is why does HBO have Dani marry Hizdar? What did it add to her story to have her married for 2 episodes? They didn't do a good job of developing Dani wrestling with the decision to marry him, or the reasons why she married him. Had they let him live, they could have developed the part of the story where he tries to take over as ruler of Mereen now that she is out of the picture.
Aint nobody got time fo that.
I think it was just to make reopening the fighting pits make more sense. She needed someoen to keep pushing her along while she was a spectator too. Plus, just a nod to book readers.
I'm interested to see how Jorah, Tyrion and the rest survive without Danny there.
Good point on your last sentence. In the books, the Harpys were much less powerful. They were more like they were early this season (for HBO). Assassins in the night. In the books, it seems realistic that it could only be about 10 guys who are actually doing the killing. HBO has basically made it appear as if they have a huge army within the city walls. In the books, Dani's entourage (Jorah and Tyrion were not present) were safely surrounded by an army of Unsullied and Brazen Beasts, and were relatively safe as long as they didn't do anything stupid. For HBO, it doesn't have the same feel. It almost seems like they will need to find a way to flee the city to survive.
What I feel they have been setting up all season in the inter conflict that Stannis has over his desire to be King ,which is feels is both his entitlement and his destiny. and his love for his family and daughter. That speech he gave to her a couple of weeks ago that she was Princess Shireen of House Baratheon was as much fro his own benefit as hers. On one hand he loves his daughter on the other hand he has seen the power of the "lord of light". It was the smoke monster that killed his brother. Note that he's already killed a family member who stood in his way admittedly one who opposed him. He saw Rob Stark and Joffery killed after the last royal blood sacrifice. In this story Melisandre power is anything but smoke and mirrors it is very real. Remember the one time he went to battle without her power he was defeated at Blackwater Bay when he had the superior forces and should have won. Not accidently by wild fire. Ultimately he choose to sacrifice his daughter and as someone previously said also his soul to win the throne. He truly believes that sacrificing her will guarantee him the iron throne.
I don't think Selyle's reaction was out of character at all. She is a women of blind faith. She like her husband has seen the power of sacrifice to the lord of light. In theory she can rationalize what she is doing. However at the last minute when she actually see her child being burned alive and hears her screaming for her mother she breaks. What mother no matter how cold hearted a ***** wouldn't. No one has that much faith.
I will have to go back and watch the fire scene again. I thought the fire spread way to fast to have been just set by Ramsey's men. It looked like to me every time she turned and pointed her lateran in a direction fire suddenly exploded in that direction.
I don't think Selyle's reaction was out of character at all. She is a women of blind faith. She like her husband has seen the power of sacrifice to the lord of light. In theory she can rationalize what she is doing. However at the last minute when she actually see her child being burned alive and hears her screaming for her mother she breaks. What mother no matter how cold hearted a ***** wouldn't. No one has that much faith.
I will have to go back and watch the fire scene again. I thought the fire spread way to fast to have been just set by Ramsey's men. It looked like to me every time she turned and pointed her lateran in a direction fire suddenly exploded in that direction.
No one has been talking about this here for obvious reasons, but I want to talk about grayscale. How exactly is it communicated? Does someone have to touch the actual mark, or just be touched with someone with it? Because they made a pretty obvious showing of Jorah taking Dany's hand and then Dany taking Missandei's hand in the arena.
I have had that problem ever since they showed them fighting. That was really my biggest disappointment in this episode, as in the episode where Selmy was killed.
I do think that episode 8 was the climax episode this season instead of 9 like past seasons.
@FMPoke
Just looking at HBO's handling of Stannis from a different point of view. Think about this.
In both the book and the show, Davos has been portrayed as a man who knows that Stannis has flaws but is Stannis' man because he thinks that Stannis is in the right and mostly does the things he does for the right reasons. He thinks that Stannis' faith in Melisandre (and the Lord of Light) can sometimes lead him astray and it is up to Davos to make Stannis open his eyes rather than be blinded by M and her god. Davos thinks of Stannis as a very determined and stubborn man, but also as a fair man who is fighting for justice and what is right. He does not approve of the way Renly was eliminated from the picture, but attributes that to Melisandre manipulating Stannis. He stopped Stannis from burning Edric Storm (book)/Gendry (HBO) by spiriting him away before it could happen. When he does this, he knows that he is betraying Stannis, but also suspects that Stannis will not punish him because he (Stannis) really doesn't want to burn an innocent boy and will be ultimately relieved that Davos prevented him from doing something that is immoral and unjust.
Now, let's look at where HBO has left the Davos/Stannis relationship. Can you imagine a scenario where Davos is going to act as Stannis' unwavering supporter/agent? That would not be in character with the Davos HBO has depicted. The Davos that Stannis had to use a pretense to eliminate him from the picture so he could burn Shirreen. Maybe HBO has plans to eliminate Davos from the group of people backing Stannis. If they bring him back into the fold, it is going to take some creative writing or it is going to be another example of one of their characters not acting consistent with the character they have developed to this point.
Just looking at HBO's handling of Stannis from a different point of view. Think about this.
In both the book and the show, Davos has been portrayed as a man who knows that Stannis has flaws but is Stannis' man because he thinks that Stannis is in the right and mostly does the things he does for the right reasons. He thinks that Stannis' faith in Melisandre (and the Lord of Light) can sometimes lead him astray and it is up to Davos to make Stannis open his eyes rather than be blinded by M and her god. Davos thinks of Stannis as a very determined and stubborn man, but also as a fair man who is fighting for justice and what is right. He does not approve of the way Renly was eliminated from the picture, but attributes that to Melisandre manipulating Stannis. He stopped Stannis from burning Edric Storm (book)/Gendry (HBO) by spiriting him away before it could happen. When he does this, he knows that he is betraying Stannis, but also suspects that Stannis will not punish him because he (Stannis) really doesn't want to burn an innocent boy and will be ultimately relieved that Davos prevented him from doing something that is immoral and unjust.
Now, let's look at where HBO has left the Davos/Stannis relationship. Can you imagine a scenario where Davos is going to act as Stannis' unwavering supporter/agent? That would not be in character with the Davos HBO has depicted. The Davos that Stannis had to use a pretense to eliminate him from the picture so he could burn Shirreen. Maybe HBO has plans to eliminate Davos from the group of people backing Stannis. If they bring him back into the fold, it is going to take some creative writing or it is going to be another example of one of their characters not acting consistent with the character they have developed to this point.
I don't think we know for sure, but in the show it seems as if you have to touch the infected part.
Good questions. If HBO is consistent with the book, the answer will be "No one really understands what it is, how it is transmitted, and why it seems to affect people differently".
In the books, Connington gets it on his hand after rescuing Tyrion from the river. Tyrion actually touches the stone man when he saves Aegon/Young Griff. The stone man grabs Tyrion by the leg and is dragging him to the bottom of the river. The next thing the reader knows is that Connington saved Tyrion. We don't know if he pried the stone man's hand off of Tyrion's leg, if he dove in the river and dragged Tyrion to the surface, or if he just reached in and grabbed Tyrion by the collar/hair and dragged him to the surface. Maybe he got it directly from touching the stone man or maybe he got it from the river water. Another possibility is that he touched one of them while fighting them off of the house boat, but Tyrion just didn't see them touch each other.
One thing I didn't get was how did Drogon get weakened by a few spears? I thought dragons eyes where the only weak point on them. I thought it was weak sauce that a few spears almost took him down. I thought they kinda made the dragon seem a bit to weak IMO. I just felt like we were lead to believe that unless Dani rode away on him he would die. Were in the books she flies away on him to save herself not the Dragon. Also if they are so weak what is now stopping the Sons of the Harpy from killing the other two. This episode felt a bit sloppy after last weeks.
I will have to read it again, but I think at least 1 of the spears was lodged in Drogon's back and Dani used it to hang on in the books. But, I do agree that he seemed weaker that I would expect. I kept expecting him to get hit by a spear then pretty much decimate everyone not around Dani. But, he would turn and kill 1 or 2 then just stand there are roar until the next spear hit him.
Agreed, but I attributed it to him still being young, I don't know if he is full grown yet or not. I was really hoping we would see him swoop in and lay ring of fire around them, roasting all of the Harpies in a massive wall of flame. Did anyone think as she climbed on ... "thats...going to be uncomfortable"? Also, I hated the how long it took her to get on.. I mean I get getting on a dragon isn't like getting on the pony ride at walmart, but yeesh, let your dragon get speared about 40 more times why don't ya. Dragon looked awesome though.
Oh I'm pretty sure HBO has plans for Davos to split from Stannis, theres no way he sticks with him after he learns what happens. I bet we just saw the show forshadow the books too, in the books I was still figuring Stannis takes Winterfell. I bet he does not in either one now. I bet Littlefinger's plan just went up in smoke.
Well there is a theory on how Stannis's daughter will die in the books now that GRRM said she does die in the books also. The theory I saw was that Melisandre will go and burn her to bring Jon Snow back to life. Now that is believable IMO vs what was thrown at us last night. The more I think about it the less it makes since really. A guy who ate rats for a year until Davos (Onion Knight) was able to sneak in supplies would just burn his daughter at the first sign of hardship.
I could totally see that. In DWD, there were hints that Melisandre was starting to suspect that maybe Jon Snow was special. If I remember correctly she was looking at her flames, trying to visualize the man who was the key to saving humanity. She was trying to visualize Stannis but kept seeing the face of JS, so she thought her powers were not working correctly. I could see her deciding that JS is Azor Ahai reborn (he would be reborn by being brought back to life).
I agree 100% that the Stannis Davos relationship is done. They are setting Davos up for something. I wouldn't even be shocked if he killed Stannis down the road. They spent a lot of time building the Davos / Shireen relationship for a reason. That payoff has not yet come. GRRM has indicated the Shireen will also be sacrificed in the books. The big difference in the books is that Stannis has sent Davos away on a mission (to find Rickon?) and he isn't around to offset the influence of Melisandre. In the show he is only sent away after Stannis has made his choice so he won't interfere.
This isn't the first sign of hardship. Stannis's army is now maybe a third of what it was due to desertions of the mercenaries & deaths from hardship of winter and bogged down in the dead of winter. Stannis has two choices. Give up and go back to Castle Black for the winter as Davos councils or press on to Winterfell which they can't do under current conditions. Stannis made a clear decision to sacrifice his daughter to save his Army and his quest for the throne. When you thing about it in those terms it's not as shocking as it seems.
My guess is Stannis presses on to Winterfell and defeats the Boltons next week due to the sudden break in the weather brought on by the sacrifice. I would expect his demise to come sometime next season as a result of his choices. As I said I wouldn't be at all surprised if Davos has something to do with it.
While I do think this will be the end of Stannis/Davos I think it was pretty clear Davos knew Shireen was in danger. I'm not sure what he could have done but he left knowing something was up.
I thought that was the worst episode of Game of Thrones I've watched. That final fight scene in the pits/flying off on a dragon was corny and hokey.
Now that Emilia Clarke is no longer getting naked her character is completely intolerable.
Now that Emilia Clarke is no longer getting naked her character is completely intolerable.
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I don't agree. From what we know of Davos, he would have kidnapped Shireen, or confronted Stannis if he knew what was about to happen.
I don't think he knew exactly what was happening but to me it was extremely clear he knew something was up and she was in danger (unless I completely bungled the scene).
- He thinks it is extremely odd Stannis wants to send him on the mission. He tries to get out of it. To me he can tell Stannis wants to get him out of the camp.
- He then immediately suggests to take Shireen with him. For Davos to want to take Shireen on a long trek through the North in winter to the Wall makes me think he knew she was not safe with her father.
- I thought their last conversation was one where Davos knew he might not see her again.
Can't definitively argue with your points. However, as I posted above, Davos puts Stannis on a pedestal. I suspect that he could not even comprehend the possibility that Stannis would do what he did (which is why I feel HBO bungled their writing this season).
My take was that he felt Stannis was sending him on an errand that someone else could do, but it seemed important to Stannis that Davos go, so Davos capitulated.
He suggested to take Shireen (and Selyse) with him because he knew a battle was coming (or starvation in the snow) and it made no sense to keep them in harms way.
If the sentence above this one is accurate, it would make sense that Davos felt he might not see her again. She was in danger where she was, and there was no guarantee that he would survive a trip to the wall and back.
You, yourself stated that you think the Stannis/Davos relationship will be over as soon as Davos finds out about Shireen. If that is true, and Davos knew what was about to happen, he would have nothing to lose by defying Stannis' orders and trying to save her.
I guess I don't think Davos knew. I think he suspected but hoped Stannis wouldn't actually do it.
Yes staying at the camp would have been dangerous for Shireen. However, going on an expedition through the North to a Wall full of robbers and rapist with a small convoy with the Boltons out and about would have just as dangerous if not more.
Yes staying at the camp would have been dangerous for Shireen. However, going on an expedition through the North to a Wall full of robbers and rapist with a small convoy with the Boltons out and about would have just as dangerous if not more.
Did all of Davos kids die already or is there one still alive. This is really a book question I guess. I thought one of his kids was Stannis scribe or something and was into the lord of the light big time. Am I remembering this correct or has that kid died also?