Hands

[ru_upstate]

The late John Thompson had a long history of recruiting and developing big men. He used to say (paraphrasing) - I don't care how talented a center is, if he doesn't have good hands I can't use him.

My question (and I ask as someone who never played organized BB) - Is that something that big men practice and develop or "either you have hands or you don't"? When Thompson made such comments, he implied the latter. Kind of like the cliche that you can't teach speed.

Myles obviously has big strong hands with great ability to catch passes and snag rebounds. It seems Cliff's hands are not at the same level. It seems that hard passes and long lobs to him are a bit of an adventure.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Cliff can’t seem to catch the long passes, but that’s the least of my issues with him playing right now. The defensive rebounding is just unacceptable when we have a veteran reserve player like Duke on the bench, who, I recognize isn’t great and has a multitude of flaws (including bringing virtually no offense) but he grabs point blank defensive rebounds, isn’t regularly stripped after he does so, or tied up for a jump ball in a situation where the opponent should’ve had no shot at all. And isn’t completely out of position like Cliff has been (mainly because he’s not a frosh!)

Duke gave us 10 solid minutes in the Purdue win and 22 in the OSU loss where every time any of our bigs breathed the refs decided to blow the whistle (not his fault). Since those games he hasn’t played outside of a minute or 2 in garbage time. That’s why I asked if he’s hurt. I felt he earned the right to get a few meaningful minutes here and there in relief of MJ.

 

[RU82]

Cliff isn’t a finished product by any means but he’s already better than Douc. That’s why he’s playing and Douc isn’t.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Cliff isn’t a finished product by any means but he’s already better than Douc. That’s why he’s playing and Douc isn’t.

He has far more potential and upside. And more talent. Perhaps he’s better in practice too. You cannot however, objectively say that Cliff contributed more or better to any of the past 3 games than Duke did vs Purdue and OSU (better competition).

 

[cyrock3]

I can say he contributed more.

For starters we haven’t dealt with -20 point swings like we did vs OSU when Douc was in after Myles fouled out.

 

[dpwhite]

Hamady N’Diaye developed his hands while he was here. I recall stories of Darren Savino developing them by running post drills but using a tennis ball instead of a basketball.

 

[cubuffsdoug_rivals]

Hamady N’Diaye developed his hands while he was here. I recall stories of Darren Savino developing them by running post drills but using a tennis ball instead of a basketball.

RU Alum Sanu had a video (football) where he did a drill to improve his eye/hand development while strengthening his hands. I'll post it when I find it.

 

[RU82]

He has far more potential and upside. And more talent. Perhaps he’s better in practice too. You cannot however, objectively say that Cliff contributed more or better to any of the past 3 games than Duke did vs Purdue and OSU (better competition).

Oh I definitely think Cliff has performed better than Douc. You’re too focused on his mistakes, which admittedly have been too many.

Cliff is only half way through his freshman season and he’s been improving incrementally. Maybe you don’t see it but I do.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Oh I definitely think Cliff has performed better than Douc. You’re too focused on his mistakes, which admittedly have been too many.

Cliff is only half way through his freshman season and he’s been improving incrementally. Maybe you don’t see it but I do.

The thing with Cliff is that even a non BB person can see his natural talent. I mean it almost jumps off the screen at you. But he is very young and that shows greatly too. He is going to be a perfect example of either one of two things- he doesn't work hard enough to become great or he puts in the work that is equal or more than his talent and becomes great. His ceiling is completely up to him

 

[zappaa]

John would have loved Myles from day one.
He wasn’t ready to play but he could snatch the ball and throw outlet passes the day he got here.... you don’t teach it

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I can say he contributed more.

For starters we haven’t dealt with -20 point swings like we did vs OSU when Douc was in after Myles fouled out.

That’s a beyond unfair take on Doucoure for that OSU game. It didn’t go down like that at all. Doucoure gave solid minutes in the first half of that game and the first part of the second half too. Even after the refs called that criminal 4th foul on MJ - he came in and had a steal strip for and an one bucket. We were up 15 with 13 and a half minutes to play in the game and Doucoure contributed at least 10 minutes to that point. Like MJ, he became ineffectivr on defense once playing with 3/4 fouls and the game went downhill from there. The refs took us out of it. Not Doucoure.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Also - there was no Caleb and Paul had picked up a few quick fouls too. We literally had no interior players left - and you say Douc was responsible for blowing that lead trying to defend in foul trouble with no help at all?

 

[cyrock3]

That’s a beyond unfair take on Doucoure for that OSU game.

Ironic.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Oh I definitely think Cliff has performed better than Douc. You’re too focused on his mistakes, which admittedly have been too many.

Cliff is only half way through his freshman season and he’s been improving incrementally. Maybe you don’t see it but I do.

Come on. He’s been awful the past 3 games. Maybe it’s taking awhile to come back from the injury. Maybe it’s the freshman wall. Whatever. I’m sure he will eventually be a very good player for us. But he hurt us badly in the Minnesota game and did not demonstrate any form of improvement or growth in that game. It wasn’t just a drop off in play when MJ came out. That’s what Doucoure was in the Purdue and OSU games. Zero offensive presence but a big body defending in the post. Cliff was a liability yesterday even with the benefit of 6-7 Caleb defending on the floor with him (which Douc did not have). Cliff was just ineffective.

 

[Yeah Baby]

I can say he contributed more.

For starters we haven’t dealt with -20 point swings like we did vs OSU when Douc was in after Myles fouled out.

Not sure if that’s even correct but you leave out some other facts:

- Douc also had 4 fouls and couldn’t play strong at all
- OSU big man is not oversized but a handful for anyone to guard let along a backup with 4 fouls
- we still had a 4 Pt lead when JY got hurt
- half our team was either out or playing hurt

While I have no problem playing Cliff over Douc I have to call out your reasoning.

Cliff has a huge upside.I think his hands will get stronger as he hits the weight room and gains confidence

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Not sure if that’s even correct but you leave out some other facts:

- Douc also had 4 fouls and couldn’t play strong at all
- OSU big man is not oversized but a handful for anyone to guard let along a backup with 4 fouls
- we still had a 4 Pt lead when JY got hurt
- half our team was either out or playing hurt

While I have no problem playing Cliff over Douc I have to call out your reasoning.

Cliff has a huge upside.I think his hands will get stronger as he hits the weight room and gains confidence

Thank you. Finally some reasonable perspective. We didn’t have 6-7 Caleb either. MJ wasn’t effective on defense with the 4 fouls either. The refs put us in an impossible situation. No way any part of that loss was on Douc.

 

[rubaseball78_rivals]

The thing with Cliff is that even a non BB person can see his natural talent. I mean it almost jumps off the screen at you. But he is very young and that shows greatly too. He is going to be a perfect example of either one of two things- he doesn't work hard enough to become great or he puts in the work that is equal or more than his talent and becomes great. His ceiling is completely up to him

His ceiling is the same regardless how hard he works. It’s how close he gets to the ceiling is dependent on him working hard.

 

[MLBash93]

The late John Thompson had a long history of recruiting and developing big men. He used to say (paraphrasing) - I don't care how talented a center is, if he doesn't have good hands I can't use him.

My question (and I ask as someone who never played organized BB) - Is that something that big men practice and develop or "either you have hands or you don't"? When Thompson made such comments, he implied the latter. Kind of like the cliche that you can't teach speed.

Myles obviously has big strong hands with great ability to catch passes and snag rebounds. It seems Cliff's hands are not at the same level. It seems that hard passes and long lobs to him are a bit of an adventure.

Douc can't find the ball. Hell end up running to the locker room by getting lost

 

[Scarlet Shack]

There is two big things a big man has or hasn’t

hands
And
Foot work

 

[zappaa]

Cliff’s hands getting stronger won’t make them softer.

 

[yesrutgers01]

His ceiling is the same regardless how hard he works. It’s how close he gets to the ceiling is dependent on him working hard.

Agree- I worded it incorrectly but you know what I mean. lol The kid could really become good- his ceiling is that high, but completely up to him.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Douc can't find the ball. Hell end up running to the locker room by getting lost

I just don’t understand this. He’s nothing special granted and clearly doesn’t have upside. Contributes very little on offense. But in the last 2 games were he saw meaningful minutes (both against very good teams and Purdue being without RHJ too) his defense was solid for a back up coming in to spell us 10-15 minutes when MJ needed a break. He certainly should never play the 21+ minutes he had to play at OSU but his defense at least was pretty decent for the first 10+ minutes in that game (on the road against a top 10 caliber team) when he wasn’t playing with 4 fouls.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Agree- I worded it incorrectly but you know what I mean. lol The kid could really become good- his ceiling is that high, but completely up to him.

for sure. But it’s like another poster said. He probably needs a year lifting weights. Extra PT right now may help him turn the corner and should be worked in where it can but the long stretch he played in the second half yesterday nearly cost us the game.

 

[Pancho1939_rivals]

Guys come on. Cliff is better than douc. The overall feeling and confidence around the team has change since Cliff came back. Without Cliff we were on pins and needles waiting for for Myles to foul.. I did think doing served admirably during his time seeing action but we got what we got.

i would like to see pikiell try to mix up his subs so that cliff plays withthe first group more. I think this would help him.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Guys come on. Cliff is better than douc. The overall feeling and confidence around the team has change since Cliff came back. Without Cliff we were on pins and needles waiting for for Myles to foul.. I did think doing served admirably during his time seeing action but we got what we got.

i would like to see pikiell try to mix up his subs so that cliff plays withthe first group more. I think this would help him.

Speaking of Cliff and hands...if this kid can get those hands we talk about- wow

Even now- our guys are throwing hail mary's up at the rim hoping he is just going to be there to slam it. Imagine when he is there and he has those hands.

 

[Yeah Baby]

Speaking of Cliff and hands...if this kid can get those hands we talk about- wow

Even now- our guys are throwing hail mary's up at the rim hoping he is just going to be there to slam it. Imagine when he is there and he has those hands.

Maybe it’s vision. Maybe it’s just freshman jitters and maybe it is his hands. But if they’re throwing these passes to him he must be making the plays in practice.

He is a superior athlete. He is built like an Avatar. I see a very high ceiling for Cliff.

 

[BillyC80]

Cliff’s hands getting stronger won’t make them softer.

I think part of Cliff’s “hands” problem is that he’s in too much of a hurry to make a play. Like a receiver who tries to turn upfield before looking the ball into his hands, Cliff needs to catch it first, then make a move. The game will slow down for him as he gains more experience.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Guys come on. Cliff is better than douc. The overall feeling and confidence around the team has change since Cliff came back. Without Cliff we were on pins and needles waiting for for Myles to foul.. I did think doing served admirably during his time seeing action but we got what we got.

i would like to see pikiell try to mix up his subs so that cliff plays withthe first group more. I think this would help him.

Speaking of Cliff and hands...if this kid can get those hands we talk about- wow

Even now- our guys are throwing hail mary's up at the rim hoping he is just going to be there to slam it. Imagine when he is there and he has those hands.

He is a better more talented player. He showed that at Indiana. He has NOT played well at all the past 3 games though. If he’s not scoring against Iowa (which maybe he can do) it’s going to be hard to play him. Garza is going to have a field day.

 

[RU_DIO]

Cliff needs to learn how to play D.

 

[koleszar]

i would like to see pikiell try to mix up his subs so that cliff plays with the first group more. I think this would help him.

You want Pike to mess with the group that got us big leads early and has finished games off? That doesn't sound like a good strategy.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Unrelated to this team. But back in the days around early 2000s I heard a fan at the RAC complain "his hands are like toasters".. cannot remember who it was about.. maybe kareem wright

 

[Night Man]

I don't remember his hands being this bad before he was hurt, and even for a game or two after he came back.

As for how to get better, just need more reps. Let's not act like the ability to catch a ball is just something you're born with and can't improve, that's completely and utterly absurd. Drive him to Busch and get him in front of a jugs machine every day. Make him do ball handling drills like a guard. Go from medicine ball to basketball and back. Not like the OL in football where you either have good feet or you don't (and even that can get better if you work hard enough). This can be fixed

 

[GORU2014]

We don’t need to find a new target to attack after every game. Let him develop, he’s insanely talented.

 

[RU848789]

Myles has soft hands, which along with good hand-eye coordination allow him to catch well, although they're not always strong, as he gets the ball knocked loose too often. To me I don't think one can improve the first part much, but the second part should be improved more easily. I can't quite tell if Cliff has bad hands or if some of it is bad court awareness, such that he's overthinking things and not anticipating well, which can make it look like bad hands, when it might not be. He has struggled the past few games, but Pike knows he's better than Douc and is wllling to let him grow and learn this year.

 

[ru_upstate]

OP was not to criticize Cliff. Love him. The last freshman I favored this much was Damon Santiago.

Sounds like there are drills to develop this hands thing. I do think the others need to tailor their entry passes better for him. There were high lobs to him the last game that maybe Myles or Harper could handle but not Cliff.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

He is better than Douc. But he didn’t play better than Douc’s typical outing against Minnesota (he wasn’t good at NW either but I don’t remember enough specifics about that game to focus on it). Yes, there’s more upside with Cliff and YES, he should without question remain the first sub off the bench for Myles. That said, if MJ really needed that 5+ minute break in the second half, during the stretch that we fell behind by 6 (which is another question mark), when your developing frosh is in there getting absolutely crushed on defense against a middle of the line interior, and you know you have an upper class reserve on the bench (who didn’t get destroyed like that on defense in recent outings against better interior teams) to try out for a few minutes until MJ is ready to go back in, I’m wondering why he he wasn’t tried. That’s all. The +\- numbers probably don’t even highlight just how bad Cliff was during that stetch. Carr was on the bench at that point in foul trouble. The Minny review of the game says something like “Somehow inexplicable with Carr on the bench Minny pulled ahead and took a 6 point lead”.

 

[mugrat86]

I wonder what Cliff’s plus/minus in that game was compared to Myles. It seemed like a huge disparity. @Richard Schnyderite do you have that data?

 

[Mr. Magoo1]

Cliff isn’t a finished product by any means but he’s already better than Douc. That’s why he’s playing and Douc isn’t.

way better than Douc. Douc’s reaction time is so slow it almost doesn’t even matter if he boxes out. The rebound is over his head before he realizes it’s off the rim. No comparison between the two.

 

[Richie O]

I wonder what Cliff’s plus/minus in that game was compared to Myles. It seemed like a huge disparity. @Richard Schnyderite do you have that data?

Against Minnesota, Omoruyi -5 and Johnson +9.

 

[zappaa]

If our 3 sub tandem of Cliff, Tez and young could play at 0 plus, minus, we’d be golden.
Like 4th line in hockey, you don’t worry about scoring but you don’t let the other team score.
I love the Young substitution with Myles and Geo still in the game, Young is a different player with them on the floor with him