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Harvard makes ACT & SAT scores optional, yet we lose a recruit over it

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hoosboot

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hdhntr1 said:
No but their admissions department would not have rejected him over it and ours did
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Actually...most Ivys and other high academic institutions are overwhelmingly still using SATs for athletes this year.
 
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NUera

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May 29, 2001
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Academic standards for a grand total of 100 revenue-generating athletes is stupid. Duke is doing just fine.
 
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EvanstonCat

Senior
May 29, 2001
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As involved on the edge with the AAC, I believe test scores are optional for NU this year as well. The tests help those who need it. Most take it anyways to try to improve their profile.

Jazquez likely didn't have the grades and profile to enable him to get in without the scores. If anything the scores can help get you in. I'm speculating of course, but I suspect Admissions would have made an exception on his application had he made a score that indicated he'd have the potential to overcome an otherwise concerning HS academic record to be successful in the classroom at NU.
 
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T_Levine

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There was an article in either the Wall Street journal or NY Times about 10 years ago that talked about IVY Athletics.
There is one formal for the entire conference. Minimum GPA of 3.6 is all I remember but the grades test scores etc were the same for every school. It was a conference rule or guideline that all schools adhered to.
 
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Gocatsgo2003

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T_Levine said:
There was an article in either the Wall Street journal or NY Times about 10 years ago that talked about IVY Athletics.
There is one formal for the entire conference. Minimum GPA of 3.6 is all I remember but the grades test scores etc were the same for every school. It was a conference rule or guideline that all schools adhered to.
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It’s called the Academic Index: https://www.mka.org/uploaded/college_counseling/Publications/AI_Guidelines_Worksheet.pdf

Not sure if still accurate, but seems like athletes must still submit test scores to comply: https://www.thedp.com/article/2020/07/penn-sat-act-scores-ivy-league-athletes-academic-index
 
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elgatoloco_rivals308553

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We went through this a bit over the summer. Yale's basketball coach, John James, told a group of parents that Yale was test-optional and that he had to meet an aggregate index number. I don't remember what the minimum GPA was in this conversation (I'd like to say 3.2), but he said "The hardest part about Yale is getting in." Cornell was looking at my son and a teammate and the Cornell coach told their AAU coach that he could get teammate in with his 3.2. Came down to money, though. The coach said they do well with wealthy families (of course) and low-income families (where there's a lot of financial aid available), but they have problems targeting middle-class players.
 
stpaulcat

stpaulcat

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May 29, 2001
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The irony is, Northwestern's Admissions department is stuck in the Dark Ages, and they are in effect pulling the football program back in with them. My sense is, they haven't yet caught up with the fact that test scores measure one type of learning, combined with needing or wanting to boost Northwestern's academic ranking (at the expense of missing certain very highlied students who don't fit their mold).
 
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No Chores

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Jul 2, 2006
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stpaulcat said:
However they do offer scholarships to athletes.
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Distinction without a difference which I and several others have been arguing for quite some time. A rose by any other name . . .
Does anybody really believe that the transfer portal G/C from Cornell didn't get a free ride. He turned down West Point among others.
 
bringbacktherantboard

bringbacktherantboard

Junior
Aug 31, 2003
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elgatoloco said:
We went through this a bit over the summer. Yale's basketball coach, John James, told a group of parents that Yale was test-optional and that he had to meet an aggregate index number. I don't remember what the minimum GPA was in this conversation (I'd like to say 3.2), but he said "The hardest part about Yale is getting in." Cornell was looking at my son and a teammate and the Cornell coach told their AAU coach that he could get teammate in with his 3.2. Came down to money, though. The coach said they do well with wealthy families (of course) and low-income families (where there's a lot of financial aid available), but they have problems targeting middle-class players.
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The middle class are priced out of the elite schools. (Lower class get Grant's, middle class get loans.) I've known some supremely qualified people who had to settle for the state school. I would not be able to afford NU today. It already wasn't cheap for me, and the price has doubled.
 
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No Chores

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Jul 2, 2006
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FeralFelidae said:
The middle class are priced out of the elite schools. (Lower class get Grant's, middle class get loans.) I've known some supremely qualified people who had to settle for the state school. I would not be able to afford NU today. It already wasn't cheap for me, and the price has doubled.
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Not only would my family be unable to afford NU today, they would not have had the issue come up because I wouldn't have gotten in.
 
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kelloggcat

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Below is from sports Illustrated this Fall. Like other collegiate conferences across the country, the Ivy League altered its rules surrounding athletes profiting off their name, image and likeness on July 1, when the NCAA changed its stance to allow individuals to accept sponsorships. But unlike other conferences, the Ivies don’t offer athletic or academic scholarships. Students’ financial aid packages are entirely need-based and determined by multiple factors, including reported family income and assets.

my wife played soccer at Princeton and we are very good friends with the recently departed AD, who now runs the LPGA. I can assure you that there is not a dime of athletic aid offered to anyone on any team at any school in the conference.

the only money offered is need based financial aid. There is a ton of that. So if you’re wealthy and pay your own way or if you’re poor and get aid you’re good to go. If you’re somewhere in the middle it’s a lot tougher.

btw there are no academic scholarships either. Even if you’re Einstein.
 
CatManTrue

CatManTrue

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kelloggcat said:
Below is from sports Illustrated this Fall. Like other collegiate conferences across the country, the Ivy League altered its rules surrounding athletes profiting off their name, image and likeness on July 1, when the NCAA changed its stance to allow individuals to accept sponsorships. But unlike other conferences, the Ivies don’t offer athletic or academic scholarships. Students’ financial aid packages are entirely need-based and determined by multiple factors, including reported family income and assets.

my wife played soccer at Princeton and we are very good friends with the recently departed AD, who now runs the LPGA. I can assure you that there is not a dime of athletic aid offered to anyone on any team at any school in the conference.

the only money offered is need based financial aid. There is a ton of that. So if you’re wealthy and pay your own way or if you’re poor and get aid you’re good to go. If you’re somewhere in the middle it’s a lot tougher.

btw there are no academic scholarships either. Even if you’re Einstein.
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But what does @No Chores think about this?
 
stpaulcat

stpaulcat

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May 29, 2001
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kelloggcat said:
Below is from sports Illustrated this Fall. Like other collegiate conferences across the country, the Ivy League altered its rules surrounding athletes profiting off their name, image and likeness on July 1, when the NCAA changed its stance to allow individuals to accept sponsorships. But unlike other conferences, the Ivies don’t offer athletic or academic scholarships. Students’ financial aid packages are entirely need-based and determined by multiple factors, including reported family income and assets.

my wife played soccer at Princeton and we are very good friends with the recently departed AD, who now runs the LPGA. I can assure you that there is not a dime of athletic aid offered to anyone on any team at any school in the conference.

the only money offered is need based financial aid. There is a ton of that. So if you’re wealthy and pay your own way or if you’re poor and get aid you’re good to go. If you’re somewhere in the middle it’s a lot tougher.

btw there are no academic scholarships either. Even if you’re Einstein.
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Depends on how one defines a scholarship. I received fellowships which were financial aid, so isn't that a matter of semantics?
 
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DkeCat

Sophomore
Jan 14, 2002
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No Chores said:
Distinction without a difference which I and several others have been arguing for quite some time. A rose by any other name . . .
Does anybody really believe that the transfer portal G/C from Cornell didn't get a free ride. He turned down West Point among others.
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Congrats on sucking me back in.


and an interesting comment from the article:

“There have been many top-flight high school basketball players for whom an Ivy school was their first choice, but because they could owe as much $40,000 or more after four years, they and their families felt they could not afford to turn down a full scholarship at a non-Ivy school,” Cotler and Litan wrote.

(and Stpaulcat - while they can manipulate financial aid within reason, it generally is not the same unless a student comes from a low HH income family. Plus - up for renewal every year (had a lower-income kid at an ivy who lost his financial aid when his parents cashed out of a business))
 
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DkeCat

Sophomore
Jan 14, 2002
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kelloggcat said:
Below is from sports Illustrated this Fall. Like other collegiate conferences across the country, the Ivy League altered its rules surrounding athletes profiting off their name, image and likeness on July 1, when the NCAA changed its stance to allow individuals to accept sponsorships. But unlike other conferences, the Ivies don’t offer athletic or academic scholarships. Students’ financial aid packages are entirely need-based and determined by multiple factors, including reported family income and assets.

my wife played soccer at Princeton and we are very good friends with the recently departed AD, who now runs the LPGA. I can assure you that there is not a dime of athletic aid offered to anyone on any team at any school in the conference.

the only money offered is need based financial aid. There is a ton of that. So if you’re wealthy and pay your own way or if you’re poor and get aid you’re good to go. If you’re somewhere in the middle it’s a lot tougher.

btw there are no academic scholarships either. Even if you’re Einstein.
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This was exactly my first-hand experiences, but there is a poster who is a "very successful lawyer" who seems to really like arguing because it is apparently better to be wrong then confused.
 
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kelloggcat

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Oct 21, 2004
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there are no scholarships in the Ivy League period. Athletic or academic. A grad student can get a fellowship, but that’s only in the graduate college.

everyone else pays. You can get financial aid which is calculated off the fafsa form, but you will pay. The Ivys all have large endowments so paying financial aid is doable for them. Interestingly NU is also a no loan school for financial aid. Middle class kids who attend those schools often take loans which they assume they will pay back by getting a good job.

the Cornell kid who turned down West Point did that because he wanted to attend Cornell not because they gave him any money. He may also have not wanted to serve in the Army.

the Ivy League is an academic first conference. Their rules help them stay that way.
 
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No Chores

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Jul 2, 2006
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DkeCat said:
This was exactly my first-hand experiences, but there is a poster who is a "very successful lawyer" who seems to really like arguing because it is apparently better to be wrong then confused.
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Neither wrong nor confused, but very happy these non-scholarship great college football players finally will be getting athletic scholarships at great Power 5 universities like NU. In the case of the OL young man from Cornell, he will actually be going to a higher rated university. What the Ivy League publishes and what it actually does are two entirely different things. Just ask GOUNUII. But, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
 
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DkeCat

Sophomore
Jan 14, 2002
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No Chores said:
Neither wrong nor confused, but very happy these non-scholarship great college football players finally will be getting athletic scholarships at great Power 5 universities like NU. In the case of the OL young man from Cornell, he will actually be going to a higher rated university. What the Ivy League publishes and what it actually does are two entirely different things. Just ask GOUNUII. But, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
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While I don't believe you are the poster I am referring to, I appreciate the offer, as I think this already sums it up nicely. Link Here

@kelloggcat - they're all yours :)
 
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phatcat_rivals223240

Senior
Nov 5, 2001
18,474
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NUera said:
Academic standards for a grand total of 100 revenue-generating athletes is stupid. Duke is doing just fine.
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Including 2-3 basketball players a year that "attend class" for, what, 9 months? Then they go to the NBA. What's the point? We're never going to agree on this, but I've basically stopped following any pro sports and any college teams other than NU for that reason. As Jerry Seinfeld put it, you're rooting for laundry.
 
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NUera

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phatcat said:
Including 2-3 basketball players a year that "attend class" for, what, 9 months? Then they go to the NBA. What's the point? We're never going to agree on this, but I've basically stopped following any pro sports and any college teams other than NU for that reason. As Jerry Seinfeld put it, you're rooting for laundry.
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lol it's cute that you think we'd be able to recruit 3 one-and-done basketball players every year.

Minuscule change does not lead to the end of life as we know it. Sean Dockery was a partial qualifier who not only got admitted to Duke, he stayed for four years; I'm sure their football team has brought in and graduated "special" students as well. And yet despite these ghastly exceptions, Duke is still No. 9 in the US News Rankings, tied with... omg they're tied with Northwestern! (But how??? That's impossible!!!)

Even just 5 yearly exceptions for football and 1 for basketball -- with players who are committed to making it work at NU both athletically and academically -- would likely yield a massive improvement to our squads, if for no other reason than it increases our access to talent. And it most certainly wouldn't impact our overall institution.
 
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hoosboot

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NUera said:
lol it's cute that you think we'd be able to recruit 3 one-and-done basketball players every year.

Minuscule change does not lead to the end of life as we know it. Sean Dockery was a partial qualifier who not only got admitted to Duke, he stayed for four years; I'm sure their football team has brought in and graduated "special" students as well. And yet despite these ghastly exceptions, Duke is still No. 9 in the US News Rankings, tied with... omg they're tied with Northwestern! (But how??? That's impossible!!!)

Even just 5 yearly exceptions for football and 1 for basketball -- with players who are committed to making it work at NU both athletically and academically -- would likely yield a massive improvement to our squads, if for no other reason than it increases our access to talent. And it most certainly wouldn't impact our overall institution.
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You think that NU doesn't make exceptions for football and basketball players? I think what you seek are exceptions to the exceptions.
 
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hoosboot

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Purple Pile Driver said:
Does Comcast carry the Ivy League Network?
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I believe that football and basketball are still substantially larger revenue sports in the Ivy than most of the others, but I could be wrong about that. My point was that the experience our family has is not in football and basketball, but the financial support experience was the same as others had noted.
 
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NUera

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hoosboot said:
You think that NU doesn't make exceptions for football and basketball players? I think what you seek are exceptions to the exceptions.
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I’m saying get rid of the standards all together. Collins and Fitz know what it takes to make it at NU, and they know that if they bring in the wrong guy’s, it’s on them. Enough with the requirements.
 
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kelloggcat

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The university is already turning down 90+% of everyone who applies. Those who do get in are among the most capable students in the world.

Allowing athletes who are marginally qualified to have one of those seats does not help them or the university.

We have two kids at NU now. They tell us that the workrate required to succeed and the resultant stress are unbelievable. Add in the time commitment to do well as an athlete and you have an extremely difficult path to success.

If an athlete struggled in high school it is almost certain that they will struggle at NU. No amount of academic support or tutoring can make up for that.

That is why the school has high standards for recruiting and why they won’t deviate from them.

For me I’d rather follow Stanford’s model than that of Duke, Vandy or ND. It makes us better as a university. Which at the end of the day is what we are.
 
Purple Pile Driver

Purple Pile Driver

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kelloggcat said:
The university is already turning down 90+% of everyone who applies. Those who do get in are among the most capable students in the world.

Allowing athletes who are marginally qualified to have one of those seats does not help them or the university.

We have two kids at NU now. They tell us that the workrate required to succeed and the resultant stress are unbelievable. Add in the time commitment to do well as an athlete and you have an extremely difficult path to success.

If an athlete struggled in high school it is almost certain that they will struggle at NU. No amount of academic support or tutoring can make up for that.

That is why the school has high standards for recruiting and why they won’t deviate from them.

For me I’d rather follow Stanford’s model than that of Duke, Vandy or ND. It makes us better as a university. Which at the end of the day is what we are.
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The question relates to test scores. Nobody is talking about students that “struggle” in HS. We are talking about students that are capable HS students but not in that elite 10% that gets admitted. Fitz graduates players and there are countless examples of players that have graduated and had very successful careers off the field that didn’t have a snowballs chance in hell of getting admitted as a “regular” student. Didn’t these players benefit from a NU education as much if not more than most regular students? We can keep a country club attitude and that’s fine, but then get to Ivy League and stop pretending.
 
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hoosboot

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Purple Pile Driver said:
The question relates to test scores. Nobody is talking about students that “struggle” in HS. We are talking about students that are capable HS students but not in that elite 10% that gets admitted. Fitz graduates players and there are countless examples of players that have graduated and had very successful careers off the field that didn’t have a snowballs chance in hell of getting admitted as a “regular” student. Didn’t these players benefit from a NU education as much if not more than most regular students? We can keep a country club attitude and that’s fine, but then get to Ivy League and stop pretending.
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I'm confused about what you are advocating. In one breath you acknowledge that NU makes exceptions for players that wouldn't have had a chance of getting admitted without exceptions made for athletes and then in the next you complain about "a country club attitude". NU already has lesser requirements for athletes (as do most other schools, including the Ivys.)

Is the issue here that you believe you know what it takes for a student-athlete to be successful at Northwestern better than the Admissions Department?
 
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