Hey you "K should play the bench more" crowd- don't give up hope....

[hart2chesson]

Some of us oldtimers and middle- age Duke fans will remember this. Matty Giles keeps his microscope honed in on Duke hoops year-round.....

https://balldurham.com/2019/04/24/d...-dormant-chant/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

OFC

 

[BeerPoisoning]

99% of the time transferring players shines a negative light on a program. Coaching error, bad player management, etc. In a lot of these cases, it’s a fair assessment. Duke receives the same negative spotlight from it - IMO, we are the exception.

Players leave Duke because they aren’t good enough. I know this is a cocky response but it’s also the cold blooded truth. If you aren’t capable of immediately being a top player in basketball or willing to virtually sit out a couple seasons to develop the skill level for minutes, why even sign to play here? I hate to sound ungrateful for all the “mediocre” talents we get, but it’s pretty clear-cut..... Either you perform top notch or you sip Gatorade on the bench.

 

[dukehokie]

Next year’s team could have 5 juniors+ (if Ques and Jav come back) and a sophomore Joey Baker on top of the 5 freshmen.

I’m not saying K will resort back to platoon subs and 10-11 guys will get 15 minutes or more. But the last time K had this many upperclassmen was 2012-2013 and those 5 guys got as much PT as they could handle.

This is a really good recruiting class coming in, but all 5 freshmen aren’t guaranteed 30 mins a game. We’ve had some transcendental players come through recently. This group lacks that a bit as this class wasn’t necessarily blue chip central.

The Duke upperclassmen will see time as will the young guys. By tournament time, we’ll be back to 8 or so, but before that, guys are going to get their opportunities to show they belong.

 

[DukeDenver]

99% of the time transferring players shines a negative light on a program. Coaching error, bad player management, etc. In a lot of these cases, it’s a fair assessment. Duke receives the same negative spotlight from it - IMO, we are the exception.

Players leave Duke because they aren’t good enough. I know this is a cocky response but it’s also the cold blooded truth. If you aren’t capable of immediately being a top player in basketball or willing to virtually sit out a couple seasons to develop the skill level for minutes, why even sign to play here? I hate to sound ungrateful for all the “mediocre” talents we get, but it’s pretty clear-cut..... Either you perform top notch or you sip Gatorade on the bench.

I agree with this. It is case by case really. Players overvalue individual offensive play in cbb. You have to be able to play defense and, more broadly, play team basketball. Our transfers are all different. Some just weren’t very good and maybe we scouted poorly and that is on the coaches. Derryck Thornton comes to mind. Other guys just get impatient and know they can shine as a featured guy. Gbinije and Ojeleye both made smart moves by leaving. No one to blame there.

 

[dukehokie]

99% of the time transferring players shines a negative light on a program. Coaching error, bad player management, etc. In a lot of these cases, it’s a fair assessment. Duke receives the same negative spotlight from it - IMO, we are the exception.

Players leave Duke because they aren’t good enough. I know this is a cocky response but it’s also the cold blooded truth. If you aren’t capable of immediately being a top player in basketball or willing to virtually sit out a couple seasons to develop the skill level for minutes, why even sign to play here? I hate to sound ungrateful for all the “mediocre” talents we get, but it’s pretty clear-cut..... Either you perform top notch or you sip Gatorade on the bench.

It’s absolutely true not even just at Duke. Occasionally you get the personality clash, but primarily you don’t get time because you aren’t good enough. Bottom line I agree.

 

[hart2chesson]

99% of the time transferring players shines a negative light on a program. Coaching error, bad player management, etc. In a lot of these cases, it’s a fair assessment. Duke receives the same negative spotlight from it - IMO, we are the exception.

Players leave Duke because they aren’t good enough. I know this is a cocky response but it’s also the cold blooded truth. If you aren’t capable of immediately being a top player in basketball or willing to virtually sit out a couple seasons to develop the skill level for minutes, why even sign to play here? I hate to sound ungrateful for all the “mediocre” talents we get, but it’s pretty clear-cut..... Either you perform top notch or you sip Gatorade on the bench.

BP I have a great deal of respect for your views, and admiration of you as a fellow Duke Die Hard. However I think theres a LEGIT CHANCE the writer is on point here, and the "Gatorade Sippers" will be less plentiful next year. We'll just have to wait and see.

Last few days I have heard similar refrains from Duke fans: "K's stubborn he wont play the bench etc." I even had one Duke fan tell me K's slipping because he hasnt made the FF last couple years w/great talent. Like Hokie said, sure its been a "disappointment," but when you narrow it down to a few bad bounces in VERY NARROW EE losses last couple years, thats more bad luck. K's not slipping, and if you want to see slippage just beware of trying to fill his shoes when he hangs it up. Rant over, MY GOOD FRIEND...

OFC

 

[dukiejay]

I think a lot of guys will get opportunities early to show themselves....just like this past year. I do think the rotation will eventually whittle its way down to eight, though....maybe nine.

 

[RanDEVILman]

I was telling a a buddy (UNC fan, but a good one in that hes not an obnoxious b-hole) that I don't see any OAD players in this years Duke freshmen. Now, that doesn't mean 2 or 3 won't go straight pro, and I haven't REALLY seen them play a lot. But its not a lock like with many of the guys the last few years. This matters because the lower level of talent, and perhaps them staying around for 2 years or so means they won't get ALL the PT.

 

[dukehokie]

I was telling a a buddy (UNC fan, but a good one in that hes not an obnoxious b-hole) that I don't see any OAD players in this years Duke freshmen. Now, that doesn't mean 2 or 3 won't go straight pro, and I haven't REALLY seen them play a lot. But its not a lock like with many of the guys the last few years. This matters because the lower level of talent, and perhaps them staying around for 2 years or so means they won't get ALL the PT.

I hate to rain on your parade, but Carey is for sure a OAD guy. Moore and Hurt with really good seasons would take off as well. I agree though that if any of the freshmen have a season like Cam, they’ll stay for year two. What I mean by that is only a matter of underperforming based on hype. Cam’s measurables are off the charts. No one but maybe Hurt has that this season upcoming.

 

[timo0402]

I hate to rain on your parade, but Carey is for sure a OAD guy. Moore and Hurt with really good seasons would take off as well. I agree though that if any of the freshmen have a season like Cam, they’ll stay for year two. What I mean by that is only a matter of underperforming based on hype. Cam’s measurables are off the charts. No one but maybe Hurt has that this season upcoming.

This (and what you stated above regarding this years class as a whole not being as strong as years prior -overall not just duke) is why i think expectations shouldnt be the same as they were the last couple years. Should be higher than 2016 with Ingram, but not as high as 2019 with Zion and RJ, if that makes sense. The major difference clearly being that we FINALLY have an elite returning point guard.

 

[timo0402]

I think a lot of guys will get opportunities early to show themselves....just like this past year. I do think the rotation will eventually whittle its way down to eight, though....maybe nine.

Same thing i think and have posted before. I think he goes a lot deeper early and let’s these guys compete for those eventual 8 spots. This year the 8 was pretty cut and dry coming into the year with Jordan as that fringe 9th guy needed for spot or situational duty. Next year (depending on what Bolden does) we will have 10-11- who emerges should do so because of beating out the guy next to him.

Will someone leave prior to the calendar year changing to 2020? I wouldn’t rule it out.

 

[gTRON]

BP I have a great deal of respect for your views, and admiration of you as a fellow Duke Die Hard. However I think theres a LEGIT CHANCE the writer is on point here, and the "Gatorade Sippers" will be less plentiful next year. We'll just have to wait and see.

Last few days I have heard similar refrains from Duke fans: "K's stubborn he wont play the bench etc." I even had one Duke fan tell me K's slipping because he hasnt made the FF last couple years w/great talent. Like Hokie said, sure its been a "disappointment," but when you narrow it down to a few bad bounces in VERY NARROW EE losses last couple years, thats more bad luck. K's not slipping, and if you want to see slippage just beware of trying to fill his shoes when he hangs it up. Rant over, MY GOOD FRIEND...

OFC

I agree. Since 2010 K has posted an 80% (2 percentage points better than Roy) win rate with 264 wins. If anything he is consistently excellent.

 

[Mac9192]

This does seem like a year where more guys will play. The freshmen coming in aren’t coming in as highly rated as what we’ve had the last few seasons.
I would like to think more guys will play, but I think as the season goes, it will depend on how good the freshmen are doing. The better Moore, Hurt, Carey and possibly Stanley do, the less I think the bench will play.

Tre is a definite to play almost all the game. Either way, I think we are going to have a good team.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

I agree with this. It is case by case really. Players overvalue individual offensive play in cbb. You have to be able to play defense and, more broadly, play team basketball. Our transfers are all different. Some just weren’t very good and maybe we scouted poorly and that is on the coaches. Derryck Thornton comes to mind. Other guys just get impatient and know they can shine as a featured guy. Gbinije and Ojeleye both made smart moves by leaving. No one to blame there.

Derryck Thornton. The mentioning of his name could send me into a furious rant. Instead I’ll make it simple and present one of my old Facebook posts.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

BP I have a great deal of respect for your views, and admiration of you as a fellow Duke Die Hard. However I think theres a LEGIT CHANCE the writer is on point here, and the "Gatorade Sippers" will be less plentiful next year. We'll just have to wait and see.

Last few days I have heard similar refrains from Duke fans: "K's stubborn he wont play the bench etc." I even had one Duke fan tell me K's slipping because he hasnt made the FF last couple years w/great talent. Like Hokie said, sure its been a "disappointment," but when you narrow it down to a few bad bounces in VERY NARROW EE losses last couple years, thats more bad luck. K's not slipping, and if you want to see slippage just beware of trying to fill his shoes when he hangs it up. Rant over, MY GOOD FRIEND...

OFC

Woah now... I never dissed K or even mentioned him — Or are you just generally speaking?

I’m not sure how rotation will go next year, it’s an endless debate. But there’s one thing I know for sure and that’s that K likes aces in their places basketball... I think we’re going to see 3-4 guys averaging 30+mpg and another 3 guys right around 20mpg. Everyone else will likely only play non-junk minutes in special circumstances (injuries, need for specialist ability, etc.) just my 2 cents.

 

[BluePhil]

I like when we see 10+ play in a game. It usually means we stomped the ever living daylights out of our opponent.

Of course once in awhile it means everyone is playing like crap and K is throwing everything out there ti see if anyone will play.

 

[RanDEVILman]

I hate to rain on your parade, but Carey is for sure a OAD guy. Moore and Hurt with really good seasons would take off as well. I agree though that if any of the freshmen have a season like Cam, they’ll stay for year two. What I mean by that is only a matter of underperforming based on hype. Cam’s measurables are off the charts. No one but maybe Hurt has that this season upcoming.

No rain here. I wasn't saying they weren't OAD guys, just saying that "I" didnt see it that way. But again, I havent really watched them other than some highlights. I agree that Carey is probably 100% gone, and like I said probably at least 2 others. But in the last few years its been at least 3 OAD guys or more. So in that light I see more of these guys staying. Which might mean Boogie or Stanley don't get OAD minutes.

 

[dukehokie]

No rain here. I wasn't saying they weren't OAD guys, just saying that "I" didnt see it that way. But again, I havent really watched them other than some highlights. I agree that Carey is probably 100% gone, and like I said probably at least 2 others. But in the last few years its been at least 3 OAD guys or more. So in that light I see more of these guys staying. Which might mean Boogie or Stanley don't get OAD minutes.

Very true.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

Ultimately I think predicting the line-up and minutes is pointless because there’s 2 facts (OAD era) to be had.

#1- Every year we have a large high ranked class and have one (sometimes more) 4/5 star recruit that mostly rides the bench.
18: Baker
17: Tucker, AOC
16: Javin, Ques
15: Jeter
14: Grayson
13: Matt, Ojeleye
12: Murphy
11: Gbinije

#2 - Every year we have a guy who formerly rode the bench gain substantial minutes
18: Jack
17: (the exception)
16: Grayson, 3rd Plumlee
15: Matt J
14: Amile
13: Quinn
12: T Thornton
11: Ryan Kelly

That’s all off the top of my head. I could have a player listed in the wrong year or forgotten a name, but I think it’s mostly accurate.

Anyway - hopefully y’all see what I’m trying to relate. There’s just so many unknown variables. Off-season injuries, how a player’s game translates to college, big time progression, regression... Who knows

 

[Liftee]

We did play a lot of people this past year. Just not in the same game.

Perhaps "depth" doesn't mean playing 10 guys at least 10 minutes in each game. It just means that when you need someone to step up and play 15 minutes due to a specific need (or injury), you've got several guys who are ready to play.

That might be the case next year. guys better be ready to play a lot one night, not so much the next, depending on need.

 

[dukiejay]

We did play a lot of people this past year. Just not in the same game.

Perhaps "depth" doesn't mean playing 10 guys at least 10 minutes in each game. It just means that when you need someone to step up and play 15 minutes due to a specific need (or injury), you've got several guys who are ready to play.

That might be the case next year. guys better be ready to play a lot one night, not so much the next, depending on need.

Well stated....and a point that sometimes gets lost on a lot of people, myself included. Just because you play 18 minutes one night, doesn't mean you're entitled to 15 to 20 the next. K doesn't sit with a blackboard making sure enough minutes are being spread around. He's in the moment....coaching a basketball game.

Take the Louisville game for example....Jordan was outstanding the last nine minutes. But there's other factors that play into those moments. No one situation is created equal. Jordan was the best guy, that night, for that role. It was made a lot easier, too, when Cam just went off....but I digress.

 

[bullettoothtony]

We did play a lot of people this past year. Just not in the same game.

Perhaps "depth" doesn't mean playing 10 guys at least 10 minutes in each game. It just means that when you need someone to step up and play 15 minutes due to a specific need (or injury), you've got several guys who are ready to play.

That might be the case next year. guys better be ready to play a lot one night, not so much the next, depending on need.

I respect where you're coming from but that's not depth to me. At all.

To each his own.

 

[Liftee]

I really like Leonard Hamilton. However I think he tries too hard to let everyone play major minutes and it hurts them sometimes. I was always happy when Cofer or Kabengale went out of the game and I think he played too many other guys at those two players' expense. Just my opinion of course.

 

[christophero]

We did play a lot of people this past year. Just not in the same game.

Perhaps "depth" doesn't mean playing 10 guys at least 10 minutes in each game. It just means that when you need someone to step up and play 15 minutes due to a specific need (or injury), you've got several guys who are ready to play.

That might be the case next year. guys better be ready to play a lot one night, not so much the next, depending on need.

Agreed. I made a joke a few months back that our bench players seem to take turns being productive. Seems like we had a different one every game. Consistency is what they need to work on, esp. to become a starter. My ideal line up is Javin(I assume he comes back and Bolden moves on), Carey, Hurt, Moore and Tre. Jack will get minutes. Interesting to see the Boogie/Jordan competition. My guess is Boogie may have to wait his turn. Stanley looks more mature physically and may be ready to go from day one. I think Baker surprises as well. He'd still be in high school and be our 3rd rated recruit. Last year was a learning experience for him.

 

[christophero]

Hmm just watched Boogie drain like 8 in a row in the 3 point contest. Maybe he's better than I thought.

 

[timo0402]

Hmm just watched Boogie drain like 8 in a row in the 3 point contest. Maybe he's better than I thought.

Haha yeah I’m glad you made this post. There is no competition between Boogie and Jordan in terms of who gets more minutes on a regular basis. As has been said many many times- Jordan knows what he signed up for. He filled in admirably last season a few times when we needed him but by no means is he the player Boogie is now or ever will be. That’s not to say Boogie won’t have to earn his minutes and that he doesn’t have a lot to work on- strength being one of them.

 

[christophero]

My concern is his size. Dude is tiny. But clearly Boogie can play. Jordan does have age, weight and experience on him. Which makes it interesting. Jordan is also improving, but no doubt Boogie is more talented.

 

[dukiejay]

Unless Jordan's offensive game makes a drastic improvement, I think he's probably one of the odd guys out next season....on a consistent basis, anyway.

 

[Liftee]

Jordan will always have his place as a "defense and energy" guy. He has played way more so far than I ever expected and I'm happy for him.