How did PSU not put it together sooner?

[rigi19040]

I saw a pic of the 88 NCAA champs on facebook. 6 out of the first 7 champs were from Pennsylvania. There were years were 5 of the top 10 teams were from Pa.

How did PSU not put it together sooner?

How were PSAC schools producing 3 time champs? I think I read they only had 3.5 scholarships.

 

[JA1339]

I suspect Cael was asking himself the same question..

 

[SleepyLion]

I suspect Cael was asking himself the same question..

That has basically been documented.
When the PSU job came open, Cael called PSU. This is a much longer story, but Cael thought PSU was a sleeping giant. (he may have underestimated)

 

[McScoreley]

That has basically been documented.
When the PSU job came open, Cael called PSU. This is a much longer story, but Cael thought PSU was a sleeping giant. (he may have underestimated)

Cael called twice, the committee thought he was leveraging us for more from Iowa State and didn't want to waste their time.

PSU was going to make a great hire, Ira was personally involved in the search. Tim Flynn, Pat Santoro and Rob Koll were the finalists with Koll receiving the verbal offer before the committee decided to meet Cael secretly in Ames.

I think all of the finalists could have made PSU similar to Ohio State's level right now (perennial trophy team that recruits very well)

Cael saw something bigger.

 

[Nitlion1986]

Cael called twice

Cael saw something bigger.

Post with the understatement of the year, decade, millennium.

 

[El_Jefe]

I saw a pic of the 88 NCAA champs on facebook. 6 out of the first 7 champs were from Pennsylvania. There were years were 5 of the top 10 teams were from Pa.

How did PSU not put it together sooner?

How were PSAC schools producing 3 time champs? I think I read they only had 3.5 scholarships.

Complacency. Almost nobody associated with Penn State Wrestling truly understood what it took to compete at a championship level. We were happy with an occasional 3rd place and go get 'em next year.

Rich Lorenzo understood, had the vision, and retired in order to become a full-time fundraiser for the program. John Fritz also understood.

PSU Athletics and PSU Administration, not so much. And too many alumni just wanted to beat Lehigh.

BTW, same thing could be said about anOSU before Ryan. And about Pitt. And don't get Matter started on Rutger.

Also should be noted, some of the PSAC champs didn't get admitted into PSU academically. Schalles and Angle specifically, maybe others. Not dumb, just didn't take classes seriously in HS.

 

[Nitlion1986]

Complacency. Almost nobody associated with Penn State Wrestling truly understood what it took to compete at a championship level. We were happy with an occasional 3rd place and go get 'em next year.

Rich Lorenzo understood, had the vision, and retired in order to become a full-time fundraiser for the program. John Fritz also understood.

PSU Athletics and PSU Administration, not so much. And too many alumni just wanted to beat Lehigh.

BTW, same thing could be said about anOSU before Ryan. And about Pitt. And don't get Matter started on Rutger.

Also should be noted, some of the PSAC champs didn't get admitted into PSU academically. Schalles and Angle specifically, maybe others. Not dumb, just didn't take classes seriously in HS.

In Schalles' case he is smart enough to have earned his masters degree.

 

[Arivacalion]

Complacency. Almost nobody associated with Penn State Wrestling truly understood what it took to compete at a championship level. We were happy with an occasional 3rd place and go get 'em next year.

Rich Lorenzo understood, had the vision, and retired in order to become a full-time fundraiser for the program. John Fritz also understood.

PSU Athletics and PSU Administration, not so much. And too many alumni just wanted to beat Lehigh.

BTW, same thing could be said about anOSU before Ryan. And about Pitt. And don't get Matter started on Rutger.

Also should be noted, some of the PSAC champs didn't get admitted into PSU academically. Schalles and Angle specifically, maybe others. Not dumb, just didn't take classes seriously in HS.

Cael after being hired: "I didn't come here to beat Lehigh".

 

[Arivacalion]

It's not just that 1988 photo, it's literally almost every single year. Every single picture of champions you can look at and say "what the hell..."? Don't think this point wasn't understood across the nation. When Sanderson was hired, it caused a literal shock across the nation. As early as Caels final championship match Gable correctly predicted "he is going to change wrestling forever...". Gable knew. Iowa fans? Not so much.

 

[mh-larch]

Cael called twice, the committee thought he was leveraging us for more from Iowa State and didn't want to waste their time.

PSU was going to make a great hire, Ira was personally involved in the search. Tim Flynn, Pat Santoro and Rob Koll were the finalists with Koll receiving the verbal offer before the committee decided to meet Cael secretly in Ames.

I think all of the finalists could have made PSU similar to Ohio State's level right now (perennial trophy team that recruits very well)

Cael saw something bigger.

Sounds like the committee almost blew it if Sanderson called twice and wasn't interviewed and considered a finalist before they came to their senses and finally met with him. That's called dodging a bullet with a verbal on the table with Koll.

 

[mh-larch]

I respected what Coach Lorenzo and Fritz started to build and the success they achieved. I witnessed some of that rebuilding while I was at PSU 1982-1986, but it was just a start. I liked those teams, very scrappy. They seemed to draw a lot of talent from NY/LI at that time.

For as much of an icon Bill Koll was here, my aunt and uncle used to attend Nationals every year and based on what they always told me, in his later years PSU really slipped on the national level and were outclassed outside of Eastern wrestling, including physical conditioning. I'm basing that on what I was told when I was just a kid, so please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Sunderland had a few good years, but didn't even come close to taking PSU to the next level - as a team. We are super fortunate to get Coach Cael, he totally turbo charged the program. Thankfully the search committee didn't whiff at locking up Cael rather than Koll.

 

[McScoreley]

I respected what Coach Lorenzo and Fritz started to build and the success they achieved. I witnessed some of that rebuilding while I was at PSU 1982-1986, but it was just a start. I liked those teams, very scrappy. They seemed to draw a lot of talent from NY/LI at that time.

For as much of an icon Bill Koll was here, my aunt and uncle used to attend Nationals every year and based on what they always told me, in his later years PSU really slipped on the national level and were outclassed outside of Eastern wrestling, including physical conditioning. I'm basing that on what I was told when I was just a kid, so please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Sunderland had a few good years, but didn't even come close to taking PSU to the next level - as a team. We are super fortunate to get Coach Cael, he totally turbo charged the program. Thankfully the search committee didn't whiff at locking up Cael rather than Koll.

Sunderland was a tremendous recruiter but he didn't have a formula to unlock the potential of his guys.

There were guys from Sunderland that Cael inherited:
Quentin Wright
Ed Ruth
Frank Molinaro

Heck he had Bubba Jenkins lol

 

[CTStall]

True story about Fritz and I think Lorenzo. 1998 Penn State wrestles Lehigh at Stabler Arena late in the Season. I remember because a bunch of Easton fans were in attendance cheering for Billman. Penn State won. After match I stop at the Tally Ho Bar which was a pretty popular Lehigh Bar.
Fritz shows up to see some old friends. I get talking to a guy who came in with Fritz.He spoke about the dynamics of Iowa wrestling and the battle to take on Gables juggernaut.
The guy spoke about the need to fund the program better and had a genuine passion for the Penn State program.. I am almost certain it was Rich Lorenzo.

 

[rigi19040]

True story about Fritz and I think Lorenzo. 1998 Penn State wrestles Lehigh at Stabler Arena late in the Season. I remember because a bunch of Easton fans were in attendance cheering for Billman. Penn State won. After match I stop at the Tally Ho Bar which was a pretty popular Lehigh Bar.
Fritz shows up to see some old friends. I get talking to a guy who came in with Fritz.He spoke about the dynamics of Iowa wrestling and the battle to take on Gables juggernaut.
The guy spoke about the need to fund the program better and had a genuine passion for the Penn State program.. I am almost certain it was Rich Lorenzo.

They always want more funding. Never have enough. I don't buy the funding as the main issue. There were psac schools finishing in the top 5 with a fraction of PSUs funding.

If they had put it together for a couple seasons they probably would have got more funding.

There were at least a dozen schools in Pennsylvania producing national champs. Psu probably had the most funding. They needed to do a better job recruiting. Psu, Pitt, Lehigh, temple, clarion, edinboro, loch Haven, Bloomsburg, east Stroudsburg, Penn, Pitt Johnstown,

 

[AgSurfer]

They always want more funding. Never have enough. I don't buy the funding as the main issue. There were psac schools finishing in the top 5 with a fraction of PSUs funding.

If they had put it together for a couple seasons they probably would have got more funding.

There were at least a dozen schools in Pennsylvania producing national champs. Psu probably had the most funding. They needed to do a better job recruiting. Psu, Pitt, Lehigh, temple, clarion, edinboro, loch Haven, Bloomsburg, east Stroudsburg, Penn, Pitt Johnstown,

Don’t forget about the super double top secret slush fund. That might be Cael’s real secret weapon that we never hear about.

 

[McScoreley]

If you want a story about Rich Lorenzo's character, he didn't want the wrestling facilities to be named after him but Ira said it was a nonnegotiable for him to donate money for it.

 

[CTStall]

I think in 1988 Pennsylvania High School grads produced 6 National Champs. Jim Martin was the only one representing Penn State.
In the Mid 1980s to Early 1990s 2 different weights were dominated by Pennsylvania schools with Pennsylvania talent. (Not Penn State)
118 was won 5 years in a row . Ricky Bonomo Bloomsburg won 3 years and then 2 years Jack Cuvo East Stroudsburg
Hwt was won 5 out 6 years. 3 years in a row Carlton Haselrig ,Pitt Johnstown . 2 out 3 years by Kurt Angle, Clarion.
Note; Supposedly Rocky Bonomo was very helpful in Cael deciding to come to Penn State .

 

[kingstown]

PSU was always a sleeping giant, but the trio of Cael,Cody, and Casey would have brought multiple titles to Ames. ISU lacks the funding and geography to do what PSU has done, but it is the three headed monster that has made it all happen. We are seeing what happens when the greatest coaching staff of all time sets up shop in the most talent rich region of the country. Damn near a perfect storm.

 

[FlyingLion]

A major factor was that PA had/has more Division I programs then any other state so there was a lot of in-state scholarship money.

Even smaller schools with limited scholarships could pick off a top guy with a large scholarship offer here or there and that would add up.

Couple that with top out of state programs cherry picking some of the best PA recruits. Gable, Smith were Gold Medal winners and that mattered.

PSU had some solid coaches but they were rarely able to recruit at a high level nationally. They also lacked the ability to get guys to take less to go to PSU vs another PA school.

Finally the Administration has to take some of the blame. For being located in the heart of high school wrestling, they never seemed top make the program a top priority and were satisfied with the occasional top 3 finish. They lacked the foresight to see what the potential was in the program by making the right hire.

 

[An Old Pair of Asics]

Lots of good insight in this thread! In my time up there, we could always land a Kolat/Hunter/Billman but not 5 of them and 3 or 4 weights wouldn’t qualify for the tournament. It seemed that PSU was an option if money was right but if all things were equal the PA kids were hoping on a plane.

 

[El_Jefe]

Sunderland was a tremendous recruiter but he didn't have a formula to unlock the potential of his guys.

There were guys from Sunderland that Cael inherited:
Quentin Wright
Ed Ruth
Frank Molinaro

Heck he had Bubba Jenkins lol

Very good recruiter but not tremendous. More than a few high-end guys who wanted to come to PSU that he didn't pursue. Offhand, we shouldn't have turned away Burroughs and Fleeger. And we were losing the Altons and Nico before Cael came.

Good enough recruiter that we should've finished Top 5 more than we did (twice). Not good enough to seriously challenge for the title against Brands, Smith, and Robinson.

Sunderland's biggest problem was the team culture. Specifically too much partying. Scott and Darling were extreme examples of this, but not the only ones to over-prioritize social life. It took Cael a couple years to clean that up.

 

[Nitlion1986]

True story about Fritz and I think Lorenzo. 1998 Penn State wrestles Lehigh at Stabler Arena late in the Season. I remember because a bunch of Easton fans were in attendance cheering for Billman. Penn State won. After match I stop at the Tally Ho Bar which was a pretty popular Lehigh Bar.
Fritz shows up to see some old friends. I get talking to a guy who came in with Fritz.He spoke about the dynamics of Iowa wrestling and the battle to take on Gables juggernaut.
The guy spoke about the need to fund the program better and had a genuine passion for the Penn State program.. I am almost certain it was Rich Lorenzo.

Penn State's appreciation of wrestling has at times been questionable. Before I started getting NCAA tickets from other sources my dad and I were in second tier PSU seats and a couple seats to my right was coach Lorenzo. I thought, how the hell do you put Lorenzo in second tier seats. Eventually Lou Banach stopped by and gave coach Lorenzo his tickets and Lou sat in Lorenzo's seats for the first 2 sessions. An Iowa wrestling legend showed an infinite amount more respect for a Penn State coaching legend than Penn State could possibly muster for one of their own.

 

[El_Jefe]

They always want more funding. Never have enough. I don't buy the funding as the main issue. There were psac schools finishing in the top 5 with a fraction of PSUs funding.

If they had put it together for a couple seasons they probably would have got more funding.

There were at least a dozen schools in Pennsylvania producing national champs. Psu probably had the most funding. They needed to do a better job recruiting. Psu, Pitt, Lehigh, temple, clarion, edinboro, loch Haven, Bloomsburg, east Stroudsburg, Penn, Pitt Johnstown,

Don't buy it all you want, but none of those PSAC schools ever seriously challenged Iowa, OKST, or Minnesota for the national title. So if Top 5 is an acceptable ceiling, then at least we can beat Lehigh.

 

[Goldbanger]

I think in 1988 Pennsylvania High School grads produced 6 National Champs. Jim Martin was the only one representing Penn State.
In the Mid 1980s to Early 1990s 2 different weights were dominated by Pennsylvania schools with Pennsylvania talent. (Not Penn State)
118 was won 5 years in a row . Ricky Bonomo Bloomsburg won 3 years and then 2 years Jack Cuvo East Stroudsburg
Hwt was won 5 out 6 years. 3 years in a row Carlton Haselrig ,Pitt Johnstown . 2 out 3 years by Kurt Angle, Clarion.
Note; Supposedly Ricky Bonomo was very helpful in Cael deciding to come to Penn State .

Please elaborate on the Ricky Bonomo angle. I've never heard this.

 

[rigi19040]

Don't buy it all you want, but none of those PSAC schools ever seriously challenged Iowa, OKST, or Minnesota for the national title. So if Top 5 is an acceptable ceiling, then at least we can beat Lehigh.

Psac schools seriously challenging Iowa is not the issue. The issue was psac schools with as little as 3.5 scholarships were challenging PsU which then prevented PsU from challenging Iowa.

 

[Cstroke]

Sunderland was a tremendous recruiter but he didn't have a formula to unlock the potential of his guys.

There were guys from Sunderland that Cael inherited:
Quentin Wright
Ed Ruth
Frank Molinaro

Heck he had Bubba Jenkins lol

Also the generation of "Work Hard Play hard"

 

[manatree]

They always want more funding. Never have enough. I don't buy the funding as the main issue.

Don’t forget about the super double top secret slush fund. That might be Cael’s real secret weapon that we never hear about.

Hence the deployment of the bake (cookies) sales.

 

[creamery freak]

Penn State's appreciation of wrestling has at times been questionable. Before I started getting NCAA tickets from other sources my dad and I were in second tier PSU seats and a couple seats to my right was coach Lorenzo. I thought, how the hell do you put Lorenzo in second tier seats. Eventually Lou Banach stopped by and gave coach Lorenzo his tickets and Lou sat in Lorenzo's seats for the first 2 sessions. An Iowa wrestling legend showed an infinite amount more respect for a Penn State coaching legend than Penn State could possibly muster for one of their own.

I was at a BJC match about 5 years ago and Rich was sitting in the 1st level, but on the visiting team's entrance end, about halfway up. Not the greatest seats for a former PSU coaching legend.

 

[Lil Nicky Scarfo]

Also the generation of "Work Hard Play hard"

Creates a lot of functioning (and non-functioning) alcoholics

 

[Reiterate]

What i found interesting was Cael changed his mind to head Penn State one morning after informing his coaches the night before he wasnt going.

 

[Got GSPs]

And Joe

What i found interesting was Cael changed his mind to head Penn State one morning after informing his coaches the night before he wasnt going.

Pa was going to leave Penn State to take the New England Patriots job until he slept on it, or Sue talked him out of it

 

[McScoreley]

Very good recruiter but not tremendous. More than a few high-end guys who wanted to come to PSU that he didn't pursue. Offhand, we shouldn't have turned away Burroughs and Fleeger. And we were losing the Altons and Nico before Cael came.

Good enough recruiter that we should've finished Top 5 more than we did (twice). Not good enough to seriously challenge for the title against Brands, Smith, and Robinson.

Sunderland's biggest problem was the team culture. Specifically too much partying. Scott and Darling were extreme examples of this, but not the only ones to over-prioritize social life. It took Cael a couple years to clean that up.

It's kind of interesting but of all wrestlers, Bubba seemed the most excited actually at the prospect of wrestling for Cael when it was announced. Ruth didn't know who he was even. Bubba Jenkins in an Onward State article (8 years after his win over DT) said we just got the Michael Jordan of wrestling. His hope was to redshirt and then wrestle for Cael the next year. Ironically, it probably could have worked out weight wise since we had a hole at 165 the year DT went 157 and DT would never make 157 again but there obviously was other factors.

Bubba admitted he was immature and understood Cael had to set an example and cutting him was a very convenient way to do so (Cael had his brother and DT at his weights and Bubba was a winner but didn't live the right life, it showed nobody was above the rules)

Few interesting quotes from Bubba from that article:

"I was understanding of why. I wasn’t blind to it. It was strategic. He only wanted the best for his wrestling program. Obviously, having rings to fit on both hands, he’s done some amazing things. I just wish we had better communication between us."

"I was very immature and angry at the system of college wrestling that there was nothing I could do to put my career back into my hands other than force my ineligibility." (Crazy that was the case in 2010, nowadays Bubba could have just left no issues)

"If I was more mature and they were more understanding, maybe we could’ve written a different book. But the book that I have is absolutely amazing, because the ending is me on top of that podium."

 

[El_Jefe]

Psac schools seriously challenging Iowa is not the issue. The issue was psac schools with as little as 3.5 scholarships were challenging PsU which then prevented PsU from challenging Iowa.

If Clarion and Edinboro could keep PSU out of the title hunt, then it's a miracle that Iowa State didn't do the same to Iowa.

But more seriously: in our best finish under Sunderland (3rd), we were still 40 pts behind Iowa. The PSAC schools didn't short us 40 pts. We weren't a good enough program.

We also can't blame PSAC schools for our 16th place finishes any more than we can blame them for the number of PA/NY/NJ wrestlers who joined the midwest mafia.

 

[Still in State Colllege]

I really think the loss of programs was also a factor in PSU getting better. In the last 50 years D1 lost 76 teams. You also lost D2 and D3 champs in the 80's competing. All of those things really change the championships. Just like Iowa winning in 2021 without the Ivies. Would having Princeton and Cornell lead to fewer points possibly.

Cael didn't really find a way to harness PA he got the best regardless of where they were from.

 

[rigi19040]

If Clarion and Edinboro could keep PSU out of the title hunt, then it's a miracle that Iowa State didn't do the same to Iowa.

But more seriously: in our best finish under Sunderland (3rd), we were still 40 pts behind Iowa. The PSAC schools didn't short us 40 pts. We weren't a good enough program.

We also can't blame PSAC schools for our 16th place finishes any more than we can blame them for the number of PA/NY/NJ wrestlers who joined the midwest mafia.

It wasn't just edinboro and clarion. There were a DOZEN other Pennsylvania schools producing national champions. That includes at least three 3 timers. Multiple psac schools even finished in the top 5. It wasn't just Pennsylvania schools recruiting pa/nj/NY. Iowa and okstate were coming here too.

I don't think the psac has produced a champ since cale got here. Coincidence?

 

[Cali_Nittany1]

This has been posted before but not yet in this thread. It covers this topic very well:

https://onwardstate.com/2019/04/17/...nderson-turned-college-wrestling-on-its-head/

And this one behind a pay wall:
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5356211/2024/03/23/penn-state-wrestling-cael-sanderson-ncaa/

 

[Lyons212]

Don't buy it all you want, but none of those PSAC schools ever seriously challenged Iowa, OKST, or Minnesota for the national title. So if Top 5 is an acceptable ceiling, then at least we can beat Lehigh.

True. Interestingly, Clarion had 3 individual national champions in one season. 1973, Rohn, Schalles and Simpson.

Bob Bubb telling the story of Gary Barton winning the national championship in 72 is incredible. Heard that at wrestling camp in the late 70’s. He starts out by saying I didn’t even think Barton would be a starter on the team.

 

[Lyons212]

If Clarion and Edinboro could keep PSU out of the title hunt, then it's a miracle that Iowa State didn't do the same to Iowa.

But more seriously: in our best finish under Sunderland (3rd), we were still 40 pts behind Iowa. The PSAC schools didn't short us 40 pts. We weren't a good enough program.

We also can't blame PSAC schools for our 16th place finishes any more than we can blame them for the number of PA/NY/NJ wrestlers who joined the midwest mafia.

I remember from attending Clarion’s wrestling camp in the late 70’s and getting some old PSAC championship programs and seeing PSU finishing near the bottom. I think one year it was last. I didn’t know what a Loch Haven or Bloomsburg was. This was before Lorenzo. The only explanation is that PSU admin didn’t care that they were that bad.

 

[HwtsRgr8]

Struggling programs need new blood. Hiring from within the family is not always a great thing. New thinking seems to reinvigorate fans, donors, & admin

 

[El_Jefe]

It wasn't just edinboro and clarion. There were a DOZEN other Pennsylvania schools producing national champions. That includes at least three 3 timers. Multiple psac schools even finished in the top 5. It wasn't just Pennsylvania schools recruiting pa/nj/NY. Iowa and okstate were coming here too.

I don't think the psac has produced a champ since cale got here. Coincidence?

Our finishes under Sunderland:
4 (78.5) -- finished 22 pts back
16 (32.0)
25 (15.5)
35 (15.0)
6 (62.0)
12 (46.5)
23 (26.0)
9 (53.5)
11 (54.0)
3 (75.0) -- finished 40 pts back
17 (31.0)

We averaged 44 pts, and in our best year we still lost by more than a national champ. We were not close enough that the other PA schools held us back. We did that all by ourselves.

And it's a huge jump to think we would've landed those guys otherwise -- i.e., Santoro comes to PSU if Pitt didn't exist.

Back to your earlier point that money wasn't the big issue: without money we continue to recruit regionally while Iowa and OKST recruit nationally, we hire internally, we turn away Cael or he turns us away because we don't invest in his staff. And we (shudder) get lapped by Ohio State when they finally got serious about competing.

But don't take my word for it. Rich Lorenzo identified the issue and worked for decades to fix it.