How does this backfield measure with past RB tandems in PSU history?

[SleepyLion]

My comments were directed at 2 posters who slightly deviated from the thread topic. The 2 posters were questioning the value of the RB position and made comments about the ranking of Singleton and Allen as individual players.

No, I was questioning your logic on using NFL draft selection round to rank RBs from different eras.

 

[Blair10]

I'm not moving the goal post and I never said that Singleton and Allen were better than any other RB in PSU history. My point was only that looking at the draft selection round is not an indication that a RB from one era was better than one from another era. Being the 3rd RB taken in the draft is comparable to Dozer as he was the 3rd RB taken in his draft.

I said they could be "every bit as good" as players from the 1980s. If Singleton and Allen are between 6-10 in the group of 10 RBs that you listed that is the same as saying "every bit as good". I think so.

I gave you 50 years of data that supported my argument that the NFL draft class is not usful to compare RBs from different eras. You cherry picked one draft year. You could have looked at the 2024 NFL RB 1st round draft class.

I guess we will have to settle on agreeing to disagree.

In my opinion, there is a clear gap between Singleton and Allen and the best PSU RBs historically. In fact, one could make the case that Singleton and Allen may be behind former PSU RB Richie Anderson who scored 19 TDs in a single season and Evan Royster who has 29 career rushing TDs. Similar to Anderson and Royster, Singleton and Allen are very good RBs, but clearly are not in the top tier group.

 

[Nitt1300]

Most dominant in their era- Mitchell and Harris, without a doubt.

 

[SleepyLion]

I guess we will have to settle on agreeing to disagree.

In my opinion, there is a clear gap between Singleton and Allen and the best PSU RBs historically. In fact, one could make the case that Singleton and Allen may be behind former PSU RB Richie Anderson who scored 19 TDs in a single season and Evan Royster who has 29 career rushing TDs. Similar to Anderson and Royster, Singleton and Allen are very good RBs, but clearly are not in the top tier group.

That argument has some merit.

One could make the case that Singleton and Allen may be behind Richie Anderson and Evan Royster, but not using NFL draft rounds.

Singleton and Allen are projected 2rd round picks while Anderson (1993) and Royster (2011) were both 6th round picks.

 

[bbrown]

I'm not moving the goal post and I never said that Singleton and Allen were better than any other RB in PSU history. My point was only that looking at the draft selection round is not an indication that a RB from one era was better than one from another era. Being the 3rd RB taken in the draft is comparable to Dozer as he was the 3rd RB taken in his draft.

I said they could be "every bit as good" as players from the 1980s. If Singleton and Allen are between 6-10 in the group of 10 RBs that you listed that is the same as saying "every bit as good". I think so.

I gave you 50 years of data that supported my argument that the NFL draft class is not usful to compare RBs from different eras. You cherry picked one draft year. You could have looked at the 2024 NFL RB 1st round draft class.

+1. We arent the ones moving the goal posts from TANDEM RB’s to best Individual RB’s

 

[bbrown]

No, I was questioning your logic on using NFL draft selection round to rank RBs from different eras.

Which is exactly what I was doing as well

 

[LB99]

That argument has some merit.

One could make the case that Singleton and Allen may be behind Richie Anderson and Evan Royster, but not using NFL draft rounds.

Singleton and Allen are projected 2rd round picks while Anderson (1993) and Royster (2011) were both 6th round picks.

Anderson had a really good NFL career. He stuck around for awhile.

 

[bbrown]

Anderson had a really good NFL career. He stuck around for awhile.

I thought Anderson's pro career was better than his college career. But he was good. I saw him just destroy MD in the Colts old Stadium on 33rd street.
I think he may have had some run-ins with Joe IIRC.

 

[LB99]

I thought Anderson's pro career was better than his college career. But he was good. I saw him just destroy MD in the Colts old Stadium on 33rd street.
I think he may have had some run-ins with Joe IIRC.

I remember that game. He was a beast. Anderson and Rodney Kinlaw are my two most underrated RBs at PSU. Kinlaw had a great senior season. I wished he had more eligibility.

 

[Phoenix lion]

I would argue that the tandems of years past were also on teams that were more run first focused and they definitely benefitted from that. Dozier and Thomas were great and I never had the chance to see Mitchell play. However, from a pure athletic, talent perspective, Carter and Barkley are the two most gifted RBs I have ever seen in the blue and white. Carter/Archie/Pitts were some kind of special. Archie and Pitts would have been starters elsewhere.

Remember the 94 team had Wittman,and Milne along with Carter,Archie,Pitts. Only one football,thus their stats don’t tell the whole story. If they wanted to run it up(no pun intended) they could have put up 80 against the Eddie George led Ohio State team. Think about that for a minute.

 

[bbrown]

Remember the 94 team had Wittman,and Milne along with Carter,Archie,Pitts. Only one football,thus their stats don’t tell the whole story. If they wanted to run it up(no pun intended) they could have put up 80 against the Eddie George led Ohio State team. Think about that for a minute.

+100. The talent of those RB's and FB's was off the charts good. That team was so much fun and IMO the defense is unfairly maligned. They were on the field a lot and also lost some key defenders as the season wore on. I think Kim Herring was taken out by a cheap shot Northwestern guy, it's where my dislike of NW started.

 

[LB99]

Remember the 94 team had Wittman,and Milne along with Carter,Archie,Pitts. Only one football,thus their stats don’t tell the whole story. If they wanted to run it up(no pun intended) they could have put up 80 against the Eddie George led Ohio State team. Think about that for a minute.

And Carter could have easily had 2,000 yards and won the Heisman if not for Joe pulling him pretty early in some of the games.

 

[BobPSU92]

Given the huge question mark that remains at wide receiver, I expect Singleton and Allen to get the runs early and often this season. Both have been keys to our offense the last few years and will be again this season, but they aren’t our best by a long shot.

Carter, Pitts, Archie. If you insist on a tandem, Carter and Pitts or Archie. Better than Singleton and Allen.

Barkley and Sanders. Also better than Singleton and Allen.

 

[[email protected]]

You guys just keep moving the goal posts. First, your argument was college RBs are not valued by the NFL anymore. So, I gave you 2 recent examples where that argument falls apart. Now, your argument is there weren’t 3 RBs taken in the 2025 draft. Come on man. Stop.

If you were to conduct a legitimate poll amongst PSU fans asking them to list the top 5 PSU RBs of all time, Singleton and Allen would not even make the list. Singleton and Allen are very good players. I agree they are very good players. However, it’s not an insult to be behind RB greats like Carter, Barkley, Enis, Dozier, Thomas, Mitchell, Harris, and Warner. Singleton and Allen might be ranked in the 6-10 slots at best.

Where is Larry Johnson on this list?

 

[Blair10]

Where is Larry Johnson on this list?

LJ would be #6 or #7 on my list. Mitchell and Harris played before my time so I can’t put them on my list. However, I respect the opinion of others who did see Mitchell and Harris play at Penn State.

 

[[email protected]]

Also the other Harris deserves a mention. One of my favorite Psu players.

 

[LionJim]

Also the other Harris deserves a mention. One of my favorite Psu players.

#25.

 

[olelion]

a blast from the past.....Pittman and Campbell. I just think they deserve to be in the conversation

 

[Omar81]

Agree. Honestly, the only thing that held them back was the coaching staff calling off the dogs early because they were usually blowing out the competition.

The “calling off the dogs” also applies to the ‘94 defense, which in my opinion has been unfairly maligned for 30 years. The first team defense did its job very well, but was rarely in the game in the third quarter (let alone the fourth quarter) of most games.

 

[HarrisburgDave]

Aaron Harris and Curtis Enis were great together.

I thought that Blair Thomas and Steve Smith were a terrific combination. Steve Smith could have been the top running back if given the chance, he was that good.

God bless Steve Smith, he deserved a better ending to his life.

 

[Charlie1978]

Yes excellent question. I went back and watched key RB combos from past Lions teams, including the 1994-1995 era when Paterno recruited the three best RBs of that recruiting class (Carter, Archie and Pitts). Other than Barkley and Larry Johnson who were uniquely talented RBs, Penn State has had very truly gifted RBs, Singleton (poor contact balance and elusiveness) and Allen (speed) included, in the post Lenny Moore era. But on the everything is relative scale these two are the best duo with only Carter and Archie as competition. Carter and Archie had a quantum advantage of having the best O line in PSU history for all of their games and the greatest talent gaps between them and their opponents. I do think if they did not have that O Line they would not achieve what Singleton and Allen probably will achieve this year, especially since they have a significant upgrade in positional coaching.

So the answer is yes, Singleton and Allen

 

[Midnighter]

Blair, I agree with everything you said in this thread but one - IMHO Mike Archie was an outstanding RB at PSU, certainly far more than marginal. He rushed for around 1700 yards, well over 5 yards per carry, and caught 70 passes. At one point the 70 catches were the most ever by a PSU RB, not sure if that is still the record. He scored 21 TDs. When you consider he was backing up Kijana, those are pretty good numbers. And he went on to have a very nice pro career.

Believe Archie threw a couple TDs as well…

 

[94LionsFan]

Believe Archie threw a couple TDs as well…

2/2 for 106 yds and 2 TDs

 

[LionJim]

2/2 for 106 yds and 2 TDs

875.2 Passer Efficiency Rating.

 

[LMTLION]

Given the huge question mark that remains at wide receiver, I expect Singleton and Allen to get the runs early and often this season. Both have been keys to our offense the last few years and will be again this season, but they aren’t our best by a long shot.

Carter, Pitts, Archie. If you insist on a tandem, Carter and Pitts or Archie. Better than Singleton and Allen.

Barkley and Sanders. Also better than Singleton and Allen.

Miles Sanders does not get enough love.

 

[LMTLION]

When looking at best backfield tandems you’re really partially rating offensive lines. Barkley, and to a lesser extent, Sanders succeeded despite the poor lines that were still rebuilding post-sanctions. If you put Barkley behind a 1994 caliber OL, he’s averaging 8 YPC, possibly more.

 

[bbrown]

When looking at best backfield tandems you’re really partially rating offensive lines. Barkley, and to a lesser extent, Sanders succeeded despite the poor lines that were still rebuilding post-sanctions. If you put Barkley behind a 1994 caliber OL, he’s averaging 8 YPC, possibly more.

Good point about the OL.

 

[Connorpozlee]

No question about Carter’s ability. Carter is arguably #1 or #2 RB in Penn State history whom I’ve seen play. Archie and Pitts were marginal RBs at Penn State.

In terms of overall talent and physical abilities, the 1986 team roster had:

D.J. Dozier
Blair Thomas
Steve Smith
Tim Manoa

That was an incredible amount of talent assembled on a single Penn State team.

I remember the 5th guy was the last cut at Steelers camp. Was his name David Williams?

 

[bdgan]

And Carter could have easily had 2,000 yards and won the Heisman if not for Joe pulling him pretty early in some of the games.

I'm in the minority but I'm not quite as high on Carter because he was helped by all the great players on that offense. Not just a great OL but a great QB and great WRs. Opponents couldn't focus on stopping Carter.

 

[bdgan]

No question about Carter’s ability. Carter is arguably #1 or #2 RB in Penn State history whom I’ve seen play. Archie and Pitts were marginal RBs at Penn State.

In terms of overall talent and physical abilities, the 1986 team roster had:

D.J. Dozier
Blair Thomas
Steve Smith
Tim Manoa

That was an incredible amount of talent assembled on a single Penn State team.

I miss the fullbacks. Today have Allen pounding the ball but that's nothing like having two top RBs like Thomas & Dozier and also having the big FBs to block and pound the ball.

The game as changed but I don't understand why a FB heavy offense can't work. Franklin says it brings another defender into the box but wasn't that always the case? Personally I think that's the only way teams that recruit outside the top 15 are going to be able to compete. FBs and OL are less expensive than hot shot QBs and WRs.

 

[LMTLION]

I miss the fullbacks. Today have Allen pounding the ball but that's nothing like having two top RBs like Thomas & Dozier and also having the big FBs to block and pound the ball.

The game as changed but I don't understand why a FB heavy offense can't work. Franklin says it brings another defender into the box but wasn't that always the case? Personally I think that's the only way teams that recruit outside the top 15 are going to be able to compete. FBs and OL are less expensive than hot shot QBs and WRs.

The game is far too fast for the FB position. The good DEs are running sub 4.7 40s and the great ones are running 4.5. None of our great FBs in the past would beat Abdul Carter in a footrace or even come close. The fb will bring extra speedy defenders into the box with 4.3-4.4 40 cornerbacks coming downhill to blow up the play. The offense is going to be far more effective spreading the ball around to speedy wrs, rbs and TEs. Forget the rpo with a fb. The TE can act as a rather large fb at times when needed in short yardage and the TE can stretch the defense on passing downs. The fb position is largely dead unfortunately.

 

[psu1]

I love all the PSU TBs/FBs. We're talking about Nicholas and Kaytron each hitting 1k. Awesome, would be great accomplishment, however I scrolled through this thread quickly and could have missed it but LJ did 2k by himself. Not sure anyone mentioned LJ.

 

[bdgan]

The game is far too fast for the FB position. The good DEs are running sub 4.7 40s and the great ones are running 4.5. None of our great FBs in the past would beat Abdul Carter in a footrace or even come close. The fb will bring extra speedy defenders into the box with 4.3-4.4 40 cornerbacks coming downhill to blow up the play. The offense is going to be far more effective spreading the ball around to speedy wrs, rbs and TEs. Forget the rpo with a fb. The TE can act as a rather large fb at times when needed in short yardage and the TE can stretch the defense on passing downs. The fb position is largely dead unfortunately.

I don't see it that way. Manoa & Smith didn't out run defenders for 20 yards. They just plowed forward 4+ yds at a time on brute strength. I remember we struggled to convert 3rd and less than 2 and fans questioned Franklin. He said that he doesn't use a FB because it brought an extra defender into the box. The last year or two he partially relented by using a TE for the same purpose. Michigan beat us a couple of years ago by using 7 OL. I just don't buy the notion that a power running game can't be successful.

I think it has more to do with coaches and analysts deciding that explosive plays were a better bang for the buck. They might be correct assuming you have a hot shot QB and speedy receivers. The problem is those guys demand a lot of NIL money. I think teams with less money are going to have to challenge good teams the way Wisconsin has historically done. Force 190 lb safeties to come up and stop a 230 lb RB.

JMO

 

[LMTLION]

I don't see it that way. Manoa & Smith didn't out run defenders for 20 yards. They just plowed forward 4+ yds at a time on brute strength. I remember we struggled to convert 3rd and less than 2 and fans questioned Franklin. He said that he doesn't use a FB because it brought an extra defender into the box. The last year or two he partially relented by using a TE for the same purpose. Michigan beat us a couple of years ago by using 7 OL. I just don't buy the notion that a power running game can't be successful.

I think it has more to do with coaches and analysts deciding that explosive plays were a better bang for the buck. They might be correct assuming you have a hot shot QB and speedy receivers. The problem is those guys demand a lot of NIL money. I think teams with less money are going to have to challenge good teams the way Wisconsin has historically done. Force 190 lb safeties to come up and stop a 230 lb RB.

JMO

I respect your opinion greatly, and I remember the FB position very fondly. I would just rather have a 250–260 pound TE leading the way on those types of running plays. Also, both our rbs play in near fb size already between 220-230.

 

[PSU Mike]

Tandem to me means in the backfield at the same time on a large number of snaps.

Harris/Mitchell
Harris/Enis
Suhey/Guman
Williams/Warner

One of those pairs has an NFL HOFer and a guy that scored 29TD’s his last year together.

 

[STPGopherfan]

Yes we did, but two of them (Minny & USC) were by the skin of our teeth.

Like I said we should be able to win 8 or 9 games this year just on the strength of our running game. I don't think that's a negative statement. Oregon, @ Iowa, @ OSU, and Indy could all beat us if we aren't able to throw the ball. In fact Nebraska & @ UCLA could also pull off an upset if we have some injuries and Raiola and Iamaleava get hot.

Of course that's not my prediction. I think the passing game will be pretty good and we'll finish 11-1. I just don't think we can beat the top teams by simply running the ball down their throats.

Nebraska? Ummm no! Will they even score on you?