I'd rather win clean

[IdahoAlum]

Enjoying reading about all the money the SEC schools are throwing around to recruits thanks to the corruption trials that have been going on. My conclusion: Northwestern will probably never be a player for one-and-dones, or really a serious contender on the national stage, year-in and year-out. And that's okay. I'd rather struggle to win with integrity than get down in the mud with these guys. From the St. Louis Post Dispatch today:
"LSU brought embattled basketball coach Will Wade back from his school suspension, reassigned athletic director Joe Alleva and hired Scott Woodward away from Texas A&M to replace him.

That made LSU boosters very, very happy. It looked like Wade might be in the clear, despite federal bribery trial evidence of him discussing financial offers for recruits.

Wade also avoided having to testify in college basketball's second corruption trial, which was another big win for him.

While testimony in the second trial has centered on the pay-for-play antics of the Arizona program -- dooming head coach Sean Miller, it would seem -- Wade got dragged back into the mud due to his attempt to woo bagman, er, assistant coach Book Richardson from Arizona to work for LSU.

Richardson was under surveillance at the time. So there he is, on a video claiming Wade said this about key recruit Naz Reid: “Look, there’s a deal in place, I got $300,000 for him."

That's some serious coin, even by the SEC's lofty standards.

Richardson was recorded making another illuminating comment about SEC recruiting: "If I'm recruiting against Mississippi State, all bets are off" and that in the SEC, some players get "20, 30, 40 grand" when recruited."

 

[willycat]

Enjoying reading about all the money the SEC schools are throwing around to recruits thanks to the corruption trials that have been going on. My conclusion: Northwestern will probably never be a player for one-and-dones, or really a serious contender on the national stage, year-in and year-out. And that's okay. I'd rather struggle to win with integrity than get down in the mud with these guys. From the St. Louis Post Dispatch today:
"LSU brought embattled basketball coach Will Wade back from his school suspension, reassigned athletic director Joe Alleva and hired Scott Woodward away from Texas A&M to replace him.

That made LSU boosters very, very happy. It looked like Wade might be in the clear, despite federal bribery trial evidence of him discussing financial offers for recruits.

Wade also avoided having to testify in college basketball's second corruption trial, which was another big win for him.

While testimony in the second trial has centered on the pay-for-play antics of the Arizona program -- dooming head coach Sean Miller, it would seem -- Wade got dragged back into the mud due to his attempt to woo bagman, er, assistant coach Book Richardson from Arizona to work for LSU.

Richardson was under surveillance at the time. So there he is, on a video claiming Wade said this about key recruit Naz Reid: “Look, there’s a deal in place, I got $300,000 for him."

That's some serious coin, even by the SEC's lofty standards.

Richardson was recorded making another illuminating comment about SEC recruiting: "If I'm recruiting against Mississippi State, all bets are off" and that in the SEC, some players get "20, 30, 40 grand" when recruited."

The NCAA should put those schools on indefinite suspension but we know they won't. As this kind of stuff has been going on for years and not just in the SEC. Wonder if paying the players a salary could cut some of this out.

 

[NURoseBowl]

Save me a seat next to you, Idaho.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

I agree!

I also think admitting kids who meet the NCAA requirements (even though it is below NU standards) and take all their classes or graduate from another school without perform academic dishonesty is still winning clean

 

[Pukecat]

I agree!

I also think admitting kids who meet the NCAA requirements (even though it is below NU standards) and take all their classes or graduate from another school without perform academic dishonesty is still winning clean

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the success of the athletics department with these stringent standards. We still compete, our guys don't get into trouble nearly as much as other places, and our guys all graduate. I think NU would rather be exactly where it is in men's BB than be winning titles dirty with criminal players or be in the Dark Ages. We've found a comfortable medium where we contend occasionally and the team/players don't embarrass the school.

 

[torque-cat]

I agree!

I also think admitting kids who meet the NCAA requirements (even though it is below NU standards) and take all their classes or graduate from another school without perform academic dishonesty is still winning clean[/

If a minimum requirement kid out of high school can keep up with NU academics despite spending many hours working on his game, then our education is not all that rigorous. The minimum requirements are really low.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the success of the athletics department with these stringent standards. We still compete, our guys don't get into trouble nearly as much as other places, and our guys all graduate. I think NU would rather be exactly where it is in men's BB than be winning titles dirty with criminal players or be in the Dark Ages. We've found a comfortable medium where we contend occasionally and the team/players don't embarrass the school.

its laughable to think that just because a kid is not up to the stringent NU standards that they would be criminals or embarrass the school? are you really implying this?

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the success of the athletics department with these stringent standards. We still compete, our guys don't get into trouble nearly as much as other places, and our guys all graduate. I think NU would rather be exactly where it is in men's BB than be winning titles dirty with criminal players or be in the Dark Ages. We've found a comfortable medium where we contend occasionally and the team/players don't embarrass the school.

Comfortable medium? Go back and read the BBall board for the last 3 months. Many seem far from comfortable.

 

[Pukecat]

its laughable to think that just because a kid is not up to the stringent NU standards that they would be criminals or embarrass the school? are you really implying this?

Just playing devil's advocate. You should know from my recent posts that I feel our admissions dept. is a joke. Any standard they set is arbitrary in my opinion. Plenty of OSU, PSU, Rutgers players would have graduated from NU if given the opportunity and all of our vaunted tutoring.

 

[torque-cat]

Just playing devil's advocate. You should know from my recent posts that I feel our admissions dept. is a joke. Any standard they set is arbitrary in my opinion. Plenty of OSU, PSU, Rutgers players would have graduated from NU if given the opportunity and all of our vaunted tutoring.

How much direct insight do you have into admissions in order to call it arbitrary? If NU admissions committee is willing to be arbitrary that doesn’t reflect well on the school as a whole.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

How much direct insight do you have into admissions in order to call it arbitrary? If NU admissions committee is willing to be arbitrary that doesn’t reflect well on the school as a whole.

Arbitrary may not be the right word, but far more stringent is clear. Standards need be be loosened as long as the students graduate and stay out of trouble.

 

[IGNORE]

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the success of the athletics department with these stringent standards. We still compete, our guys don't get into trouble nearly as much as other places, and our guys all graduate. I think NU would rather be exactly where it is in men's BB than be winning titles dirty with criminal players or be in the Dark Ages. We've found a comfortable medium where we contend occasionally and the team/players don't embarrass the school.

There is lots of middle area.

 

[IGNORE]

Comfortable medium? Go back and read the BBall board for the last 3 months. Many seem far from comfortable.

How about competitive? The team hasn’t exactly been competitive unless one simply means they show up, compete and get beaten like a drum into last place, or lower portion of the B1G looking back further.

 

[TheC]

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the success of the athletics department with these stringent standards. We still compete, our guys don't get into trouble nearly as much as other places, and our guys all graduate. I think NU would rather be exactly where it is in men's BB than be winning titles dirty with criminal players or be in the Dark Ages. We've found a comfortable medium where we contend occasionally and the team/players don't embarrass the school.

I'm not so sure I agree with your assessment that we still compete. We've been to one tournament in our history and two short years later, we're back in last place in the conference.

On edit: having read beyond your post, I can see you've already been pretty beaten up over your initial statement and you have clarified your position some. I'll dial back the outrage!

 

[Medill90]

The high points of my argument to change how basketball and football players are evaluated for admissions:

* They are not the customer, they are a hybrid of the customer and the product
* Like the faculty, they bring revenue into the university
* Their value extends beyond revenue, they add equity to the NU brand
* They are required to do two jobs: train and compete for 52 weeks; go to school for 36 weeks
* NU makes the choice to compete at the highest level of D1 sports. NU must execute against that choice or make another

My suggestion on a more equitable way to deal with this:

* Form a ten person committee composed of five faculty members and five alums who competed for NU, and are distinguished professionally
* Let admissions do its job
* When admissions denies or indicates that a prospect will not be admitted, give the coaches the right to refer the prospect to the committee
* In addition to the prospects written academic record, allow admissions 10 minutes to explain why the prospect was denied and staff similar time to explain why admissions should be granted
* "Students capable of completing undergraduate course work" should be at the top of committee's criteria.
* Take a vote. Refer ties to the President of NU

We talk about athletes being exceptions for admissions....suggesting they are not as bright or capable as regular NU students. What NU athletes undertake and many continue for four or five years is, in my opinion, way beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of NU students.....and, frankly, the faculty. I am friends with NU deans, friends with NU faculty and staff....I know how revenue athletes are perceived and it is a subtly biased, elitist perception.

So, force admissions to defend their decisions with former student athletes who were successful at NU and successful in life.

And stop this ******** of, "here's your exception....don't send us another this year."

 

[freewillie07]

The high points of my argument to change how basketball and football players are evaluated for admissions:

* They are not the customer, they are a hybrid of the customer and the product
* Like the faculty, they bring revenue into the university
* Their value extends beyond revenue, they add equity to the NU brand
* They are required to do two jobs: train and compete for 52 weeks; go to school for 36 weeks
* NU makes the choice to compete at the highest level of D1 sports. NU must execute against that choice or make another

My suggestion on a more equitable way to deal with this:

* Form a ten person committee composed of five faculty members and five alums who competed for NU, and are distinguished professionally
* Let admissions do its job
* When admissions denies or indicates that a prospect will not be admitted, give the coaches the right to refer the prospect to the committee
* In addition to the prospects written academic record, allow admissions 10 minutes to explain why the prospect was denied and staff similar time to explain why admissions should be granted
* "Students capable of completing undergraduate course work" should be at the top of committee's criteria.
* Take a vote. Refer ties to the President of NU

We talk about athletes being exceptions for admissions....suggesting they are not as bright or capable as regular NU students. What NU athletes undertake and many continue for four or five years is, in my opinion, way beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of NU students.....and, frankly, the faculty. I am friends with NU deans, friends with NU faculty and staff....I know how revenue athletes are perceived and it is a subtly biased, elitist perception.

So, force admissions to defend their decisions with former student athletes who were successful at NU and successful in life.

And stop this ******** of, "here's your exception....don't send us another this year."

I like this idea a lot.

 

[Sec_112]

The high points of my argument to change how basketball and football players are evaluated for admissions ... I am friends with NU deans, friends with NU faculty and staff....I know how revenue athletes are perceived and it is a subtly biased, elitist perception.

So, force admissions to defend their decisions with former student athletes who were successful at NU and successful in life.

And stop this ******** of, "here's your exception....don't send us another this year."

One of the better, more well-thought-out posts on any topic on this board in a long time.

I'm also glad to see someone acknowledge the obvious, ongoing bias.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

The high points of my argument to change how basketball and football players are evaluated for admissions:

* They are not the customer, they are a hybrid of the customer and the product
* Like the faculty, they bring revenue into the university
* Their value extends beyond revenue, they add equity to the NU brand
* They are required to do two jobs: train and compete for 52 weeks; go to school for 36 weeks
* NU makes the choice to compete at the highest level of D1 sports. NU must execute against that choice or make another

My suggestion on a more equitable way to deal with this:

* Form a ten person committee composed of five faculty members and five alums who competed for NU, and are distinguished professionally
* Let admissions do its job
* When admissions denies or indicates that a prospect will not be admitted, give the coaches the right to refer the prospect to the committee
* In addition to the prospects written academic record, allow admissions 10 minutes to explain why the prospect was denied and staff similar time to explain why admissions should be granted
* "Students capable of completing undergraduate course work" should be at the top of committee's criteria.
* Take a vote. Refer ties to the President of NU

We talk about athletes being exceptions for admissions....suggesting they are not as bright or capable as regular NU students. What NU athletes undertake and many continue for four or five years is, in my opinion, way beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of NU students.....and, frankly, the faculty. I am friends with NU deans, friends with NU faculty and staff....I know how revenue athletes are perceived and it is a subtly biased, elitist perception.

So, force admissions to defend their decisions with former student athletes who were successful at NU and successful in life.

And stop this ******** of, "here's your exception....don't send us another this year."

this is excellent

 

[catsattackfor3]

What is clean? It goes without saying that there is way too much money flowing around in the 2 major college sports that just opens it up to envitable cheating in recruiting, it is almost impossible to believe it is not going on. Everyone is fighting for the top commodities (players) and if gaining an edge means circumventing the rules or blatantly buying players or buying those of influence then it is and will happen.

However as one former college coach told me almost every single school bends the rules in some way shape or form because the NCAA rules are set up to encourage breaking them to gain an edge in recruiting. It is almost impossible not to break them if you are seriously recruiting a player

 

[haywood jahblowme]

What is clean? It goes without saying that there is way too much money flowing around in the 2 major college sports that just opens it up to envitable cheating in recruiting, it is almost impossible to believe it is not going on. Everyone is fighting for the top commodities (players) and if gaining an edge means circumventing the rules or blatantly buying players or buying those of influence then it is and will happen.

However as one former college coach told me almost every single school bends the rules in some way shape or form because the NCAA rules are set up to encourage breaking them to gain an edge in recruiting. It is almost impossible not to break them if you are seriously recruiting a player

i think this is white lies (making a call or text) vs. majoe lies (paying a player or getting a parent a job)

 

[catsattackfor3]

i think this is white lies (making a call or text) vs. majoe lies (paying a player or getting a parent a job)

Right but where is the line drawn? Here is a major example: the unofficial visit!

When a player and family visit on an unofficial visit they are recommended to stay at X 4 star hotel. X hotel charges a rate of $175 a night, the rate when the players family calls is way less including complimentary meals. Is it cheating?

Or how about the club coach drives the player to said campus this week for a football game weekend, next week somewhere else for another game, flys the week after somewhere else, and then once again the next. 4 weeks straight? Who is paying that? Oh wait Nike sponsors the kids travel team and the 4 colleges he visited are Nike schools and the Club coach was the oen picking up the tab out of his Club teams allocation from Nike to get this kid to visit said schools. Is that cheating?

 

[its_the_sauce]

Thank you Reg Dunlop...

 

[wocka]

y'all are talking like we're going to turn into this overnight:

/watch?v=Yrrj0076E9U

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Right but where is the line drawn? Here is a major example: the unofficial visit!

When a player and family visit on an unofficial visit they are recommended to stay at X 4 star hotel. X hotel charges a rate of $175 a night, the rate when the players family calls is way less including complimentary meals. Is it cheating?

Or how about the club coach drives the player to said campus this week for a football game weekend, next week somewhere else for another game, flys the week after somewhere else, and then once again the next. 4 weeks straight? Who is paying that? Oh wait Nike sponsors the kids travel team and the 4 colleges he visited are Nike schools and the Club coach was the oen picking up the tab out of his Club teams allocation from Nike to get this kid to visit said schools. Is that cheating?

what happens outside of the university control or coaching staff control is not of their concern.

now if coaching staff is paying the club coach that is a problem. what nike and what high school coaches cannot be of concern of the college coaching staff

 

[hdhntr1]

The high points of my argument to change how basketball and football players are evaluated for admissions:

* They are not the customer, they are a hybrid of the customer and the product
* Like the faculty, they bring revenue into the university
* Their value extends beyond revenue, they add equity to the NU brand
* They are required to do two jobs: train and compete for 52 weeks; go to school for 36 weeks
* NU makes the choice to compete at the highest level of D1 sports. NU must execute against that choice or make another

My suggestion on a more equitable way to deal with this:

* Form a ten person committee composed of five faculty members and five alums who competed for NU, and are distinguished professionally
* Let admissions do its job
* When admissions denies or indicates that a prospect will not be admitted, give the coaches the right to refer the prospect to the committee
* In addition to the prospects written academic record, allow admissions 10 minutes to explain why the prospect was denied and staff similar time to explain why admissions should be granted
* "Students capable of completing undergraduate course work" should be at the top of committee's criteria.
* Take a vote. Refer ties to the President of NU

We talk about athletes being exceptions for admissions....suggesting they are not as bright or capable as regular NU students. What NU athletes undertake and many continue for four or five years is, in my opinion, way beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of NU students.....and, frankly, the faculty. I am friends with NU deans, friends with NU faculty and staff....I know how revenue athletes are perceived and it is a subtly biased, elitist perception.

So, force admissions to defend their decisions with former student athletes who were successful at NU and successful in life.

And stop this ******** of, "here's your exception....don't send us another this year."

It needs to be done more quickly as well

 

[torque-cat]

The high points of my argument to change how basketball and football players are evaluated for admissions:

* They are not the customer, they are a hybrid of the customer and the product
* Like the faculty, they bring revenue into the university
* Their value extends beyond revenue, they add equity to the NU brand
* They are required to do two jobs: train and compete for 52 weeks; go to school for 36 weeks
* NU makes the choice to compete at the highest level of D1 sports. NU must execute against that choice or make another

My suggestion on a more equitable way to deal with this:

* Form a ten person committee composed of five faculty members and five alums who competed for NU, and are distinguished professionally
* Let admissions do its job
* When admissions denies or indicates that a prospect will not be admitted, give the coaches the right to refer the prospect to the committee
* In addition to the prospects written academic record, allow admissions 10 minutes to explain why the prospect was denied and staff similar time to explain why admissions should be granted
* "Students capable of completing undergraduate course work" should be at the top of committee's criteria.
* Take a vote. Refer ties to the President of NU

We talk about athletes being exceptions for admissions....suggesting they are not as bright or capable as regular NU students. What NU athletes undertake and many continue for four or five years is, in my opinion, way beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of NU students.....and, frankly, the faculty. I am friends with NU deans, friends with NU faculty and staff....I know how revenue athletes are perceived and it is a subtly biased, elitist perception.

So, force admissions to defend their decisions with former student athletes who were successful at NU and successful in life.

And stop this ******** of, "here's your exception....don't send us another this year."

Hahaha, only on a fan message board would someone seriously ask a major academic university admissions committee to "defend" it's case to an appeals committee comprised 50% of former athletes.

It is very clear that our recent presidents have been major advocates of university sports and that coaches like Fitz and Collins have their ear, not to mention of Pat Ryan and other major donors. If there is a tragic flaw in the athlete admissions system Fitz, CC and others could say so to Pat, Morty, Jim Phillips, major donors etc...

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Hahaha, only on a fan message board would someone seriously ask a major academic university admissions committee to "defend" it's case to an appeals committee comprised 50% of former athletes.

It is very clear that our recent presidents have been major advocates of university sports and that coaches like Fitz and Collins have their ear, not to mention of Pat Ryan and other major donors. If there is a tragic flaw in the athlete admissions system Fitz, CC and others could say so to Pat, Morty, Jim Phillips, major donors etc...

when it comes down to a special admission case - there is one person who makes the decision on yes or no. literally one person. no group discussion. no in person interview. the one person gets a paper file and says yes or no. ONE person is the special committee.

 

[IdahoAlum]

when it comes down to a special admission case - there is one person who makes the decision on yes or no. literally one person. no group discussion. no in person interview. the one person gets a paper file and says yes or no. ONE person is the special committee.

So if this process is as arbitary as it sounds, has Collins raised the issued with the people who have the authority to fix it (i.e. Phillips and Morty)?

 

[torque-cat]

when it comes down to a special admission case - there is one person who makes the decision on yes or no. literally one person. no group discussion. no in person interview. the one person gets a paper file and says yes or no. ONE person is the special committee.

Does that person get a recommendation from the committee? Is every athlete admission through this person or justness the borderline cases?

 

[Medill90]

Hahaha, only on a fan message board would someone seriously ask a major academic university admissions committee to "defend" it's case to an appeals committee comprised 50% of former athletes.

It is very clear that our recent presidents have been major advocates of university sports and that coaches like Fitz and Collins have their ear, not to mention of Pat Ryan and other major donors. If there is a tragic flaw in the athlete admissions system Fitz, CC and others could say so to Pat, Morty, Jim Phillips, major donors etc...

Well. It's not like the Ivy's didn't do the same thing -- face to face alumni applicant interviews -- to keep Jews out.

It's the same thing, except you're bringing in the alums to ensure against bias, not guarantee bias.

 

[torque-cat]

So if this process is as arbitary as it sounds, has Collins raised the issued with the people who have the authority to fix it (i.e. Phillips and Morty)?

It doesn’t make sense to me that the school would spend half a billion dollars on upgraded facilities and be unfair, random, arbitrary or inflexible on admissions. My guess is that they have good reasons but we as a board are hyper focus on winning sports while they have a broader mission and perspective.

 

[NJCat]

It doesn’t make sense to me that the school would spend half a billion dollars on upgraded facilities and be unfair, random, arbitrary or inflexible on admissions.

Well, the "school" didn't spend the money, boosters did. But your point is well taken.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Does that person get a recommendation from the committee? Is every athlete admission through this person or justness the borderline cases?

tier 1 - normal NU student
tier 2 - NU student athlete/potentially other lower admits from other programs?
tier 3 - special admits (where one person makes final call)

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

tier 1 - normal NU student
tier 2 - NU student athlete/potentially other lower admits from other programs?
tier 3 - special admits (where one person makes final call)

Who is this mythical person? Can we get him/her the same discounts on hotels and free flights that were referenced above. A few cans of Blue Diamond Almonds and a case of Yuengling?

 

[NJCat]

Who is this mythical person?

Arthur Butz?