IHSA litigation

ramblinman_rivals165935

All-Conference
Jul 18, 2001
9,102
2,802
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I have said many times that the IHSA is far more concerned about who can't compete than who can. Their most recent appeal is further proof of that.

If the IHSA loses this appeal, perhaps they will take their toys and go home by cancelling the state finals tournament....just as they did back in the 90s with the wrestling tournament.
 

Konza

Redshirt
Oct 12, 2016
29
23
0
Kids would have no room to run if you just threw everyone into a sectional. Can you imagine a tight course with that many runners? No chance.

With the split into three classes, without the regional round, there wouldn't be many more runners on the course in a Sectional than there are in the State Final. Some courses can handle that many runners. Others can't.

Getting back to the original topic, to compete in the Sectional, you have to advance through the Regional. To compete at the State Final, you have to advance through the Sectional. If you didn't run in the Regional, you shouldn't be able to compete at the State Final.

When the schools joined the IHSA, they agreed to abide by its rules. If you don't like the rules, work through the IHSA to change them. Don't just venue-shop for a sympathetic judge.

Kind of like government and its laws...
 
Sep 24, 2009
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IHSA needed to appeal the ruling for future purposes. The organization has to stay consistent.

The IHSA’s quote (paraphrasing here)sums it up well: removing the runners from the competition isn’t the goal of the appeal but it’s a possible outcome.

They need to establish their authority or they will encourage future lawsuits and those will now have some precedent for success. What if the Fenwick game debacle from a couple years ago came right after this ruling re-instating runners? It would have had a much better chance to be successful.
 

LHSTigers94

All-Conference
Oct 25, 2004
3,173
2,437
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The IHSA’s quote (paraphrasing here)sums it up well: removing the runners from the competition isn’t the goal of the appeal but it’s a possible outcome.

They need to establish their authority or they will encourage future lawsuits and those will now have some precedent for success. What if the Fenwick game debacle from a couple years ago came right after this ruling re-instating runners? It would have had a much better chance to be successful.

Spot on. They will not have official documentation stating that they disagreed with everything that is happening right now based on their bylaws. It's the right thing to do.
 

WIU@78

All-Conference
Dec 27, 2006
8,218
1,066
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I tried last Saturday to tell folks there is a natural attrition to the advancing teams based on talent. The judge allowed many less talented athletes ( some were capable ) to advance to the next level based on the shortcomings of the union teachers who were on a walkout. This IHSA motion is to keep some order to the process down the road. You are correct though that some also lost chances to advance because the CPS were allowed to compete...leading to another lawsuit. I actually am in favor of allowing everyone to compete at a one race, winner take all state meet...kind of like the DanRyan during rush hour.
 

Eringobragh

Sophomore
Oct 22, 2002
152
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I was on the wrestling team at MC in 1995. One of the many things I came to learn is that the IHSA does not like being told what to do. Bureaucratic BS aside, the kids should be allowed to run. It’s the right thing to do
 
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Curtain 25

Redshirt
Oct 24, 2019
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Absolutely agree here. They had no choice but to see this all the way through. It's standard litigation. Don't look too deep into motive here.
Agree here...to look at this through a microscope would be a mistake...problem is, in the future a new problem is sure to arise...will this statement cover that...? I'm sure they are just trying to cover their bases...
 

Googertys Dog

Junior
Aug 29, 2019
368
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I tried last Saturday to tell folks there is a natural attrition to the advancing teams based on talent. The judge allowed many less talented athletes ( some were capable ) to advance to the next level based on the shortcomings of the union teachers who were on a walkout. This IHSA motion is to keep some order to the process down the road. You are correct though that some also lost chances to advance because the CPS were allowed to compete...leading to another lawsuit. I actually am in favor of allowing everyone to compete at a one race, winner take all state meet...kind of like the DanRyan during rush hour.
That would be awesome..
 

Konza

Redshirt
Oct 12, 2016
29
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How do you figure that MC140? I would guess about 30% don’t advance. Maybe you meant no one good?

Most regionals this year were 9 teams. Of those, 47 runners (out of a possible 63) advanced- 6 teams of 7, and the 5 highest placing individuals not on a qualifying team. At one of the regionals, two teams tied for 6th. Ties are normally broken in cross-country, but the IHSA's rules say if two teams have the same numerical score, they both advance. So 54 runners (7 teams, 5 individuals) advanced from that regional.

Before the late 1960's (1969, I think), the IHSA only had one elimination meet before State, and that was the Sectional. The numbers of schools fielding cross-country teams continued to grow, so they added the regional meets to keep the Sectional fields manageable. Then they split into two classes. Then three. Now, at least in 2A and 3A, there are fewer schools in the class than there were running single class cross-country in the mid 1960's.

The issue for cross-country is the availability of courses that can handle large fields. A cross-country course requires a long, open starting area, and if park districts have such areas they often turn them into soccer fields. More needs to be done to develop permanent courses in places that will never be otherwise developed- like forest preserves- to ensure the long term health of a sport for which Illinois is among the nation's best states.

The IHSA advisory committee has, over the last couple of years, at least advanced the possibility of eliminating the Regional level, but mostly because they are having more trouble finding schools to host the meet, mostly because the costs of running a regional meet (chip timing and scoring, venue charges) exceed what the IHSA is willing to reimburse the school for hosting the meet.

Back to the football discussion...
 
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mc140

All-Conference
May 29, 2001
8,781
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How do you figure that MC140? I would guess about 30% don’t advance. Maybe you meant no one good?

6 teams and 5 individuals advance in a 3a regional. There are typically 9 teams in a regional. So 47 kids out of around 63 kids advance. That's also assuming every team has 7 runners.
 

WIU@78

All-Conference
Dec 27, 2006
8,218
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So the large schools that have 70 runners can only send 7 by rule. If you ask me you are automatically limiting participation and those 63 kids are also eliminated at the regional level. ( although qualifying teams do not have a fixed 7.) I say start a lawsuit to have all 70 of those runners from said school compete at the regional level... heck skip the regional and go to sectional and state. Rules should matter? or do we need these rules.
 
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mc140

All-Conference
May 29, 2001
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Court won't hear IHSA appeal to next week. IHSA will end up winning but these kids will be able to run Saturday
 

WIU@78

All-Conference
Dec 27, 2006
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Thank the Lord for the judicial system. Now if we can petition the courts on a loophole to have the Bears, Bulls and Blackhawks, maybe Northwestern Football as well , to have them involved in the playoffs this year. Then we would be golden.
 

Konza

Redshirt
Oct 12, 2016
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One of the nice things about cross-country is that you can remove them from the results after the meet and score it as if they weren't there.
 

pm373869

Redshirt
Sep 27, 2011
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Why cant we just keep to:
You have to be eligible to be on the field and you have to win on the field to advance.

Tornado or teacher strike.
 
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Quags22

Senior
Aug 15, 2006
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Most regionals this year were 9 teams. Of those, 47 runners (out of a possible 63) advanced- 6 teams of 7, and the 5 highest placing individuals not on a qualifying team. At one of the regionals, two teams tied for 6th. Ties are normally broken in cross-country, but the IHSA's rules say if two teams have the same numerical score, they both advance. So 54 runners (7 teams, 5 individuals) advanced from that regional.

Before the late 1960's (1969, I think), the IHSA only had one elimination meet before State, and that was the Sectional. The numbers of schools fielding cross-country teams continued to grow, so they added the regional meets to keep the Sectional fields manageable. Then they split into two classes. Then three. Now, at least in 2A and 3A, there are fewer schools in the class than there were running single class cross-country in the mid 1960's.

The issue for cross-country is the availability of courses that can handle large fields. A cross-country course requires a long, open starting area, and if park districts have such areas they often turn them into soccer fields. More needs to be done to develop permanent courses in places that will never be otherwise developed- like forest preserves- to ensure the long term health of a sport for which Illinois is among the nation's best states.

The IHSA advisory committee has, over the last couple of years, at least advanced the possibility of eliminating the Regional level, but mostly because they are having more trouble finding schools to host the meet, mostly because the costs of running a regional meet (chip timing and scoring, venue charges) exceed what the IHSA is willing to reimburse the school for hosting the meet.

Back to the football discussion...

Very nice job explaining everything
 

WIU@78

All-Conference
Dec 27, 2006
8,218
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Very nice job explaining everything
Agreed..Konza spent way more time trying to explain this alien sport to the football masses. H-F used to complete a CC race on the running track during half time of a varsity football game to give these athletes a little exposure. The kicker was they would announce the score... and hardly anyone understood the low score wins. The judges ruling is great for those who have the chance to participate even though a strike was in session. Trust me someone will parlay this to their advantage going forward...human nature.
 

Konza

Redshirt
Oct 12, 2016
29
23
0
To put a lid on this:

Yesterday the IHSA dropped their appeal.

No CPS school finished among the top ten schools in any of the three classes of either boys or girls cross country at this past weekend's State Final.

As near as I could see, the highest place by a CPS runner was 27th; the top 25 receive medals.

In the end, it was much ado about nothing, and I'm sure the appeal would have cost the IHSA legal fees.

All that being said, there will come a time when the IHSA is going to have to make a stand to establish that it can enforce its rules.
 
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WIU@78

All-Conference
Dec 27, 2006
8,218
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There were student athletes from non CPS schools who were in fact “hurt” by this ruling. Rules were not followed set forth by the IHSA. Lawyers / lawsuits etc. will find a way to get their moment in the sun. Follow GW helmet activity FOIA above which could have sweeping impact to HS football programs.