Injuries Matter

[Son_Of_Saul]

Pitino is covering for his guy, which is normal. But even Pitino was able to do great things without Derek Anderson and a healthy Allen Edwards. His 1997 team fought like hell and still almost won the championship without those two healthy. Like others have noted in this thread, it's about how you go about your business without your best players that matters. We laid down for a few teams this year, and it's okay to acknowledge that as long as they're fixing it now.

 

[Kentucky15]

My god man. I always thought you were a pretty good poster but your tirade against Pope is getting to be a bit much. Yes, we’ve under-achieved. Yes, the roster construction is his responsibility. But Pope can’t control decommits or injuries, both of which have hurt this team. If Lower and JQ and Diabate had been healthy all year, we probably have a very different record and feel very differently heading into the SEC slate.

Fans can both be disappointed with the four losses and be happy with the seeming turn-around this team has made since Gonzaga. There’s nothing wrong with having a little hope now that we appear to be healthy or the first time all year. No one I’ve seen feeling that way is saying this is like winning a championship. Just that it’s progress we desperately wanted/needed.

When you say, Pope cannot control decommits and injuries, what are you implying? Coaches get fired for this. They get fired when they can’t hold on to players and those places decommit. Nobody in the high ranks allow a coach to remain because “he can’t help decommits”. This doesn’t make any sense.

Injuries are not the fault of the coach but they always pay the price for it and Pope has had many other issues so it’s not just injuries that have been his problem. That’s what many want to believe but it’s not true. Mark has coached pretty bad this year. I don’t think that’s debatable.

I’m not talking to people who are happy with the win. I’m talking to the guys ready to print popcorn boxes and turn us into Indiana over beating this St. Johns team.

I don’t personally believe (anymore) that Pope is going to make it here and win to the level we have to win. That’s more or less just my opinion on it, I’ve done this a long time now and the signs don’t look good. If he were at BYU maybe but not here. I would make a change end of the season, I don’t see him recruiting to the level necessary. That just what I think I see looking forward. We’ll see. So far doesn’t look good and I’m not going to pretend different because I like Mark. Balls and strikes.

Next year is year 3. He’s made really bad mistakes. This is NIL era, Kentucky shouldn’t need to give him 4 years to be in final four contention. He’s not producing here. If he has us close to a final four this year and that class turns into Kentucky quality will say that. I just don’t think it’s coming.

 

[One2Three]

Yes but it doesn't tell the whole story.

Pope still has glaring issues.

He still did way too many mass subs in the 1st half. He allowed Aberdeen to ruin offensive flow. No one ran any offensive sets in the first half.

Our defense was very good today.

So while they do matter, Lowe and JQ are the key to this season.

Consistency is the one thing that we have to see from this team and specifically Pope.

I want Pope to succeed. He may not be the right man for the job right now. Could he be? Yeah he could. But he has to win. And winning against Indiana and St. Johns today is a good start.

I am a person who looks at the scope of the entirety of it all. I don't tunnel vision on all bad or all good. It's a mix a both. Lately it was all bad. Let's hope that the rest of the season can be all good!

Lowe and JQ has to stay healthy and must start.

From today's game, the best line up is:

Lowe
Oweh
Williams
Dioubate
Quantiance

Aberdeen needs to sit and be 6th man again. But he was half the reason why our offense was stagnant in the 1st half for not being a willing passer.

I would love to see Jasper's offense get a shot and come in for Oweh or Williams. He clearly has the skills. I wish Pope would give him a chance.

One thing I’ll say is if this is truly a turnaround and Pope manages to make it to the tournament then he is given another year.

But getting another year means he needs to shorten the amount of players he has to avoid some of these frustrating issues. Get fewer, better quality players and the rotation stupidity will hopefully stop because he won’t have enough players to do it like he currently has.

And he has to do this. No more large quantity of role players from the transfer portal. Fewer, higher quality players. Pay them and stop the petty “I won’t get into bidding wars, this is Kentucky” nonsense and whatever JMI hangups that are shrouding our recruiting.

Pope is at least showing improvement on the defensive front, his biggest weakness from last year. I’ll give him that Get athletic shooters and a couple high quality bigs, teach them the same defense as he’s currently doing this year and he won’t have to worry about his job. I hate that he has to learn on the Kentucky job. This isn’t the program to do that. But I do think Pope has potential when he learns from his mistakes.

 

[sefus12]

When you say, Pope cannot control decommits and injuries, what are you implying? Coaches get fired for this. They get fired when they can’t hold on to players and those places decommit. Nobody in the high ranks allow a coach to remain because “he can’t help decommits”. This doesn’t make any sense.

Injuries are not the fault of the coach but they always pay the price for it and Pope has had many other issues so it’s not just injuries that have been his problem. That’s what many want to believe but it’s not true. Mark has coached pretty bad this year. I don’t think that’s debatable.

I’m not talking to people who are happy with the win. I’m talking to the guys ready to print popcorn boxes and turn us into Indiana over beating this St. Johns team.

I don’t personally believe (anymore) that Pope is going to make it here and win to the level we have to win. That’s more or less just my opinion on it, I’ve done this a long time now and the signs don’t look good. If he were at BYU maybe but not here. I would make a change end of the season, I don’t see him recruiting to the level necessary. That just what I think I see looking forward. We’ll see. So far doesn’t look good and I’m not going to pretend different because I like Mark. Balls and strikes.

Next year is year 3. He’s made really bad mistakes. This is NIL era, Kentucky shouldn’t need to give him 4 years to be in final four contention. He’s not producing here. If he has us close to a final four this year and that class turns into Kentucky quality will say that. I just don’t think it’s coming.

Agree to disagree on some of that. I’m just gonna judge Pope more on what happens the rest of the year than the first half now that JQ is finally back. All good.

 

[Cats3x]

Acaden Lewis de committed...and says hello.

And there's the conundrum.

How many other PGs want to come in and play 10 minutes behind Lowe? You cant have it both ways... we simply have been unlucky with injuries.

 

[bbnkat02]

One thing I’ll say is if this is truly a turnaround and Pope manages to make it to the tournament then he is given another year.

But getting another year means he needs to shorten the amount of players he has to avoid some of these frustrating issues. Get fewer, better quality players and the rotation stupidity will hopefully stop because he won’t have enough players to do it like he currently has.

And he has to do this. No more large quantity of role players from the transfer portal. Fewer, higher quality players. Pay them and stop the petty “I won’t get into bidding wars, this is Kentucky” nonsense and whatever JMI hangups that are shrouding our recruiting.

Pope is at least showing improvement on the defensive front, his biggest weakness from last year. I’ll give him that Get athletic shooters and a couple high quality bigs, teach them the same defense as he’s currently doing this year and he won’t have to worry about his job. I hate that he has to learn on the Kentucky job. This isn’t the program to do that. But I do think Pope has potential when he learns from his mistakes.

I agree with this. I think he was getting another year regardless- unless something insanely bad happened. But had we got punked by IU I think that wasn't going to be as certain as we would assume.

 

[One2Three]

I agree with this. I think he was getting another year regardless- unless something insanely bad happened. But had we got punked by IU I think that wasn't going to be as certain as we would assume.

I still think it comes down if he makes the tournament. Money talks and I think boosters will have a lot to say about this, especially with Mitch on his way out.

If he does well enough in the SEC and gets to the tournament, his early season woes will be forgiven and validate the idea that injuries wrecked the early part of the year.

 

[bbnkat02]

I still think it comes down if he makes the tournament. Money talks and I think boosters will have a lot to say about this, especially with Mitch on his way out.

If he does well enough in the SEC and gets to the tournament, his early season woes will be forgiven and validate the idea that injuries wrecked the early part of the year.

I don't see us missing now unless JL snaps in half. And if he does- we're going to struggle.

 

[Artlaibesghost]

It is hoot reading the many posts by " fans" justifying being such jerks and freaking out when we weren't healthy. Reason has no home here

 

[One2Three]

I don't see us missing now unless JL snaps in half. And if he does- we're going to struggle.

I like someone who said the next six games will determine a lot. I think after that I’ll have more confidence or lack thereof making the tournament.

 

[Cats192]

Both things are true.

Injuries matter. We're a far better team with Lowe and JQ and Dioubate.

We've had god awful effort for multiple games. We'e had zero clue on offense for multiple games. We should have won the UNC game and even the MSU game.

 

[bbnkat02]

Both things are true.

Injuries matter. We're a far better team with Lowe and JQ and Dioubate.

We've had god awful effort for multiple games. We'e had zero clue on offense for multiple games. We should have won the UNC game and even the MSU game.

 

[One2Three]

Both things are true.

Injuries matter. We're a far better team with Lowe and JQ and Dioubate.

We've had god awful effort for multiple games. We'e had zero clue on offense for multiple games. We should have won the UNC game and even the MSU game.

I’ll give credit where it’s due, Kentucky has shown a lot more effort since the second half of the Indiana game.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

 

[Woodrow24]

Gotta give Lowe props for going back into the game after he hurt his bad shoulder like he did. I hope he stays healthy the rest of the season. Looks like a totally different ball team with him and JQ on the floor.

 

[Goingfor9]

That’s all…

Give me a break. Neither team we beat is as good as the teams that whipped us. I agree. We are getting better but this team has major deficiencies still. I like how the last two games we were down in the second and then it seemed depth kicked in and we were able to take the lead and pull away.

I know injuries affect things but this team was kinda put together to be resitant to losing guys. We lose guys everyone loses guys. What happens when you lose them is what matters.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Give me a break. Neither team we beat is as good as the teams that whipped us. I agree. We are getting better but this team has major deficiencies still. I like how the last two games we were down in the second and then it seemed depth kicked in and we were able to take the lead and pull away.

I know injuries affect things but this team was kinda put together to be resitant to losing guys. We lose guys everyone loses guys. What happens when you lose them is what matters.

So your argument against the quote that injuries matter was a bunch of random crap that has nothing to do with the original topic and you yourself quoted “I know injuries affect things”? Cmon bro. Injuries matter or they don’t. Not arguing this point at all. Kind of thought it was a self-obvious fun post —- had no idea people would be trying to debate it like it isn’t clear as day.

In short: Do injuries matter? Yes or No?

If yes, no need to debate.

If no, I have no ability to debate. We wouldn’t see eye to eye on the most basic level. I would regard that view as either naive, dishonest or emotional —- unless you could explain how injuries do not matter with a coherent argument.

 

[SandyBell'sFaxMachine]

Hi sir, you play an entire season for a reason, otherwise you'd jist play a tournament and call it a day.

What else can I help you with?

Are you a hang a banner in November type of guy?

I get the point, but not scoring a single point for 33% of a game....... not even a a free throw? Isn't a strong sign of cutting any nets that season. But I'm here with you hoping like hell we're the first to do it(I have absolutely 0 clue if it's ever been done, but I do know if we pull it off somehow ESPN will know, "first team to win a championship after going scoreless for 33% of a game during the regular season where the average gym humidity was 2 points higher than normal "

 

[Mike-D]

If Lowe gets hurt again — season is over. Won’t argue with anyone who disagrees but if you think “coaching” will fix this offense without Lowe in it —- I really don’t have words for you.

Believe it or not, recruiting and team building is also on the coach. Might be why they make millions, I'm not sure.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Believe it or not, recruiting and team building is also on the coach. Might be why they make millions, I'm not sure.

Quote me where I said the coach isn’t responsible for recruiting and team building. You’re replying to a post that is about in-season coaching. Was there anything in the post you disagree with or just the hypothetical argument that you assumed I was making?

Again, I’ll say. Season’s hopes rest on injury luck and offensive progression.

(Your post was the result of bulverism.)

 

[Mike-D]

Quote me where I said the coach isn’t responsible for recruiting and team building. You’re replying to a post that is about in-season coaching. Was there anything in the post you disagree with or just the hypothetical argument that you assumed I was making?

Again, I’ll say. Season’s hopes rest on injury luck and offensive progression.

(Your post was bulverism.)

Because you're on here talking about injuries, and we don't have a capable backup PG. That's on Mark Pope and we went through this last year. Lowe is probably the most important dude on our roster, simply because our offense falls off a cliff without 'em.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Because you're on here talking about injuries, and we don't have a capable backup PG. That's on Mark Pope and we went through this last year. Lowe is probably the most important dude on our roster, simply because our offense falls off a cliff without 'em.

Bulverism

 

[Mike-D]

Bulverism

Did you say the season was over if Lowe went down again, or did I imagine that?

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Did you say the season was over if Lowe went down again, or did I imagine that?

Do you agree that the season is over if Lowe went down? Yes or no?

 

[Mike-D]

Do you agree that the season is over if Lowe went down? Yes or no?

I'm glad we've established something here. Like you said, coaching won't fix it. Recruiting and having a capable backup would certainly help, which we don't have.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

I'm glad we've established something here. Like you said, coaching won't fix it. Recruiting and having a capable backup would certainly help, which we don't have.

I thought you were providing a response to my post that said if Lowe gets hurt the season is over. You’ve yet to say whether that is true or false…you seem to want to disagree with me, but I’m unsure what you’re disagreeing with.

Rather than committing a logical fallacy:

If Lowe gets injured (season ending) do you contest my notion that our season (for all intents and purposes) is over?

Just need a simple yes or no —- unless you want to obfuscate, move goalposts or commit more bulverism fallacy.

 

[Mike-D]

I thought you were providing a response to my post that said if Lowe gets hurt the season is over. You’ve yet to say whether that is true or false…you seem to want to disagree with me, but I’m unsure what you’re disagreeing with.

Rather than committing a logical fallacy:

If Lowe gets injured (season ending) do you contest my notion that our season (for all intents and purposes) is over?

Just need a simple yes or no —- unless you want to obfuscate, move goalposts or commit more bulverism fallacy.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

So no response? You came to debate a point….that I didn’t make… then when pushed to elaborate…nothing lol. Good day sir

 

[Mike-D]

So no response? You came to debate a point….that I didn’t make… then when pushed to elaborate…nothing lol. Good day sir

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

It’s crazy how quick people flip on here. Go from the season being over to Pope is the messiah again in a week.

Not having Lowe or JQ doesn’t excuse a few of the performances we’ve had this year. It’s not losing, it’s the way they lost.

We’ve looked better recently, but nothing that should completely remove any skepticism anyone was having up to this point.

Again, to be clear, I think the people yelling for him to be fired immediately were also crazy.

 

[Cats192]

So your argument against the quote that injuries matter was a bunch of random crap that has nothing to do with the original topic and you yourself quoted “I know injuries affect things”? Cmon bro. Injuries matter or they don’t. Not arguing this point at all. Kind of thought it was a self-obvious fun post —- had no idea people would be trying to debate it like it isn’t clear as day.

In short: Do injuries matter? Yes or No?

If yes, no need to debate.

If no, I have no ability to debate. We wouldn’t see eye to eye on the most basic level. I would regard that view as either naive, dishonest or emotional —- unless you could explain how injuries do not matter with a coherent argument.

It's just always so important to understand what each side is actually saying.

Injuries matter. Unequivocally. And I think Kentucky fans are less forgiving than any other fanbase. You'll read it 10+ times a day here. "No excuses. This is Kentucky. Find a way." But there's no pixie dust in the jersey that makes us just win games. You need great players to be great. And even if you have them, it doesn't matter if they are hurt.

And if that's the entirety of the conversation. We agree. No need to say more.

But if there's an added element of "Pope shouldn't have been critcized before his team was fully healthy..." We had pathetic effort from the guys we did have. And while I can see the mentality of--we're missing our best players, nothing is working in practice, we don't have a chance, and the negativity snowballs. It's real. It happens. Kids are human.

That being said, you would think/hope the guys that are getting extra minutes due to the injuries are giving it their all to earn extra minutes. You would think/hope Pope is able to keep them locked in and fired up. And we failed to do that for 3 games. We no-showed Michigan State, UNC, and Gonzaga.

Pope does some things that should catch criticism besides effort. The goofy substitution patterns. Putting BG on the inbounds and letting Gonzaga consistently get Ika and the other big man on our guards in the post.

So, yes, injuries matter. This team is SO much better with the players. Pope is going to have far better success with his full team. But it's concerning to see a team just not give effort for 3 games.

I don't think we were beating Gonzaga without JQ. Louisville on the road was really hard. JQ probably changes that one a great deal. But we should have beaten UNC--poor effort, anemic offense, and everything. We also should have beaten MSU. They ran nothing complicated or sophisticated. They're a bad 3 point shooting team. And we basically let them have an open gym from 3 every time they had the ball. If we actually played defense and gave effort, I think we're better than them, even down guys.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

It's just always so important to understand what each side is actually saying.

Injuries matter. Unequivocally. And I think Kentucky fans are less forgiving than any other fanbase. You'll read it 10+ times a day here. "No excuses. This is Kentucky. Find a way." But there's no pixie dust in the jersey that makes us just win games. You need great players to be great. And even if you have them, it doesn't matter if they are hurt.

And if that's the entirety of the conversation. We agree. No need to say more.

But if there's an added element of "Pope shouldn't have been critcized before his team was fully healthy..." We had pathetic effort from the guys we did have. And while I can see the mentality of--we're missing our best players, nothing is working in practice, we don't have a chance, and the negativity snowballs. It's real. It happens. Kids are human.

That being said, you would think/hope the guys that are getting extra minutes due to the injuries are giving it their all to earn extra minutes. You would think/hope Pope is able to keep them locked in and fired up. And we failed to do that for 3 games. We no-showed Michigan State, UNC, and Gonzaga.

Pope does some things that should catch criticism besides effort. The goofy substitution patterns. Putting BG on the inbounds and letting Gonzaga consistently get Ika and the other big man on our guards in the post.

So, yes, injuries matter. This team is SO much better with the players. Pope is going to have far better success with his full team. But it's concerning to see a team just not give effort for 3 games.

I don't think we were beating Gonzaga without JQ. Louisville on the road was really hard. JQ probably changes that one a great deal. But we should have beaten UNC--poor effort, anemic offense, and everything. We also should have beaten MSU. They ran nothing complicated or sophisticated. They're a bad 3 point shooting team. And we basically let them have an open gym from 3 every time they had the ball. If we actually played defense and gave effort, I think we're better than them, even down guys.

I’m a believer in the idea that if someone has a statement, I’ll decide whether I agree with that specific statement or not. Then I’ll engage in debate or not.

On the other hand, a lot of people on this site will ascribe an epistemological intent and argue against something they will agree with, simply because they disagree with other things a poster said. I think that’s not only fallacious but pointless. My post wasn’t about who is to blame, it was about whether injuries matter. They do.

 

[Hoskins91_rivals]

I’m a believer in the idea that if someone has a statement, I’ll decide whether I agree with that specific statement or not. Then I’ll engage in debate or not.

On the other hand, a lot of people on this site will ascribe an epistemological intent and argue against something they will agree with, simply because they disagree with other things a poster said. I think that’s not only fallacious but pointless. My post wasn’t about who is to blame, it was about whether injuries matter. They do.

Cool, no one disagrees with the statement. We all know you’re saying it as a means of excusing the performance up to this point. Saying otherwise is dishonest.

 

[I’m The Village Idiot]

Cool, no one disagrees with the statement. We all know you’re saying it as a means of excusing the performance up to this point. Saying otherwise is dishonest.

If you don’t disagree with the statement, no need to say anything else.

Ironically, you’re committing a logical fallacy, called bulverism..and talking about dishonesty lol

 

[Tim0808]

Its amazing how many dont understand the injury issue.

Take three of the best 4 players off ANY TEAM IN HISTORY... and they ain't winning shite.

I do not think it is not understanding injuries. I think it is spending 20+ million and not having a quality back up PG.

 

[Cats192]

I’m a believer in the idea that if someone has a statement, I’ll decide whether I agree with that specific statement or not. Then I’ll engage in debate or not.

On the other hand, a lot of people on this site will ascribe an epistemological intent and argue against something they will agree with, simply because they disagree with other things a poster said. I think that’s not only fallacious but pointless. My post wasn’t about who is to blame, it was about whether injuries matter. They do.

I agree with all of this.

 

[Woodrow24]

Injuries definitely matter when you can’t play your best player which is JQ and it leaves you with no real point guard when Lowe had to sit out. Next year we definitely need to have at least two point guards on the team.

 

[Cats3x]

I do not think it is not understanding injuries. I think it is spending 20+ million and not having a quality back up PG.

Youre not getting a quality PG to come and play 10 minutes a game.

 

[Tim0808]

Youre not getting a quality PG to come and play 10 minutes a game.

If he is a quality backup, he would play more than10 minutes a game. Pope does not like playing guys 30 minutes a game.

 

[Cats3x]

If he is a quality backup, he would play more than10 minutes a game. Pope does not like playing guys 30 minutes a game.

Ok... no high quality PG is coming here to play 12-15 min per game.

That sound you hear is my point going right over your head.